The Feminist Case Against Cross-dressing

Scene 3

Hera enters. She wheels on a manikin draped in a baby blue baby-doll nightie.

Hera
Oh spite, be damned, witness this hatred,
This sluttery and degradation of wanton
And flighty females to dress them thus.
Is it not enough to endure the pain of birth?
Yet before, and after,
to be dressed in scantiness revealed
And break the pleasure of a wife’s
Rehealed virginity: for pleasure.
For shame! For double shame of giving
Twice the pleasure than a woman receives;
And all the while risking the pain
Of children and the worry of nurture.

And these children,
When pulled from the body,
Are split into warriors for the state to slay
And subjects to be dressed thus, be tricked,
Be downcast and exploited of their maidenhood.
It is the curse of patriarchy:
Which word when sliced
Makes war of patriotism
And anarchy within the lives of women.

And just as the glories of the female form
Have increased allure, when draped sheer
In disguise of the impurity: so
Aphrodite’s waters,
Masks the sin of pettier pleasure
And call it love. I would as rather
My pearl were plucked,
That I might be senseless
To assault. Than I would dress thus.

And this curse I lay,
may it carried by the dutiful wife:
Since her life is without joy,
And her trust without reward,
For men take
The form of beasts at will
To double their double pleasure.
Let men be narrow in sensuality.
For if his licentious joys increase,
Even in the scruples weight,
The balance will o’er tip
And his need for woman will disappear.

hi jeremy

i think needs a more discerning eye than mine. as it's in play form i'm sure the period language works well.
it has a feel of the sonnet writer about it yet the i wonder if a stronger more consistent meter would help the reader/listener get through the piece. it needs an edit though i'm not capable of giving more than what is below. wish i could have been more helpful.

even with my lack of comprehension as to what was going on, i did enjoy the read

(03-09-2014, 07:35 AM)jeremyyoung Wrote:  The Feminist Case Against Cross-dressing

Scene 3

Hera enters. She wheels on a manikin draped in a baby blue baby-doll nightie.

Hera
Oh spite, be damned, witness this hatred,
This sluttery and degradation of wanton this line makes me think of wanton soup, simply because wanton is placed how it is.
And flighty females to dress them thus.
Is it not enough to endure the pain of birth?
Yet before, and after,
to be dressed in scantiness revealed
And break the pleasure of a wife’s
Rehealed virginity: for pleasure. not sure the 2nd pleasure work that well
For shame! For double shame of giving
Twice the pleasure than a woman receives; i think this and the line above, very cleverly done
And all the while risking the pain
Of children and the worry of nurture.

And these children,
When pulled from the body,
Are split into warriors for the state to slay
And subjects to be dressed thus, be tricked,
Be downcast and exploited of their maidenhood.
It is the curse of patriarchy:
Which word when sliced
Makes war of patriotism
And anarchy within the lives of women.

And just as the glories of the female form lots of [and's]
Have increased allure, when draped sheer
In disguise of the impurity: so
Aphrodite’s waters,
Masks the sin of pettier pleasure there's that pleasure again
And call it love. I would as rather
My pearl were plucked,
That I might be senseless
To assault. Than I would dress thus.

And this curse I lay,
may it carried by the dutiful wife: would [be] after [it] make the line an easier read
Since her life is without joy,
And her trust without reward,
For men take
The form of beasts at will
To double their double pleasure. i'm sensing you have a thing with this word [pleasure]
Let men be narrow in sensuality.
For if his licentious joys increase,
Even in the scruples weight,
The balance will o’er tip
And his need for woman will disappear.

Thanks Billy.

It's not really a play as such. The scene number and the stage direction is there for V-effect.

I take on board that 'pleasure' is perhaps overused.

This dialect bespeaks a hand endowed;
Were that the final line could ring as true.

This daisy peeps at sun's bright break
unsure of what yonder sun has spake.

Hey Jeremey

The play structure you've adopted is confusing me right from the off, to the point where I do not know whether to critique this as a poem or not.
Here goes anyway (as a poem that is)

Is this actually a third scene or is that for an effect that I've failed to comprehend? It immediately leads me to think I've missed something. It's an uncomfortable feeling.

On whole, I'm failing to see how the play device supports your theme beyond setting the scene for your speaker.

Moving past that, I enjoy the piece very much.
It's strong and impassioned and the use of archaic language gives real presence to the character that I think would be difficult to achieve with a contemporary voice.

Some specific thoughts/observations below.

I hope you you will either expand the play device so it functions more clearly or remove. There's a great piece in this I think.

Thanks a lot,

(03-09-2014, 07:35 AM)jeremyyoung Wrote:  The Feminist Case Against Cross-dressing

Scene 3

Hera enters. She wheels on a manikin draped in a baby blue baby-doll nightie.

Hera
Oh spite, be damned, witness this hatred,
This sluttery and degradation of wanton
And flighty females to dress them thus. The adjectives wanton and flighty lessen the impact of the acts of sluttery and degradation as they suggest the women are already to be held in lower esteem
Is it not enough to endure the pain of birth?
Yet before, and after,
to be dressed in scantiness revealed Can scantiness be revealed, as it's already a state of partial reveal?
And break the pleasure of a wife’s
Rehealed virginity: for pleasure. rehealed virginity is excellent. Great image/idea. I'd reconsider pleasure in the previous line. Sanctuary perhaps would be closer to the peace that has led to the rehealing process. And it starts to alleviate your overuse of that word
For shame! For double shame of giving
Twice the pleasure than a woman receives;
And all the while risking the pain
Of children and the worry of nurture.

And these children,
When pulled from the body, do all the children come from the one body? something to be done here
Are split into warriors for the state to slay
And subjects to be dressed thus, be tricked,
Be downcast and exploited of their maidenhood.
It is the curse of patriarchy:
Which word when sliced
Makes war of patriotism
And anarchy within the lives of women.
I'm reading these two lines as independent consequences. ie, makes a war of patriotism.
and separately, brings anarchy to the lives of women.
Whether that's your intent or not I would look to punctuate or adjust the line break to clarify that.

And just as the glories of the female form
Have increased allure, when draped sheer
In disguise of the impurity: so
Aphrodite’s waters,
Masks the sin of pettier pleasure
And call it love. I would as rather
My pearl were plucked,
That I might be senseless
To assault. Than I would dress thus.
This stanza is a standout for me. plucked pearl is deeply unnerving

And this curse I lay,
may it carried by the dutiful wife:
Since her life is without joy,
And her trust without reward,
For men take
The form of beasts at will
To double their double pleasure.
Let men be narrow in sensuality.
For if his licentious joys increase,
Even in the scruples weight,
The balance will o’er tip
And his need for woman will disappear.

I'm not sold on the play device as it stands, but if expanded, I think this could work excellently as an on stage soliloquy with another male character perhaps...

All opinions either way, thanks for the read and best of luck

I would like to see it end on "dissipate" causing it to end on a stronger note as it picks up the rhyme of "take" and "weight".

Also overall. the focus tends to wander, and I am not quite sure what Hera is railing against, patriarchy, man's sex drive, et al. Also, Hera places the blame of women having to dress scantily at the feet of men. Plus if man's desire for women disappear, the human race will cease to exists fairly quickly, and thus will the gods also disappear, so it seems a bit contradictory.

Just my take on it today, I might change my mind tomorrow

Dale

Thanks Tomoffing

As mentioned above the play device is Brechtian V-effect, intended to alienate the reader into focusing on what is there, and not what they expect to be there. Also it serves as a simple way of establishing who is speaking. I understand that it is confusing, with it being scene 3, having props in a poem etc but that is all part of the alienation process

The body referred to is the state.

The Patriarchy thing is a little joke on the feminist tendency towards sophistry, i.e History being split into His-Story supposedly to write women out. Patriarchy can be accused of many things by creating anarchy in women's lives is an oxymoron.

And the repetition of pleasure is because that is the case she is making, to deny men the pleasure of women's clothing.

I take on board your comments and appreciate your feedback.

(03-11-2014, 08:56 AM)jeremyyoung Wrote:  Thanks Tomoffing

As mentioned above the play device is Brechtian V-effect, intended to alienate the reader into focusing on what is there, and not what they expect to be there. Also it serves as a simple way of establishing who is speaking. I understand that it is confusing, with it being scene 3, having props in a poem etc but that is all part of the alienation process

The body referred to is the state.

The Patriarchy thing is a little joke on the feminist tendency towards sophistry, i.e History being split into His-Story supposedly to write women out. Patriarchy can be accused of many things by creating anarchy in women's lives is an oxymoron.

And the repetition of pleasure is because that is the case she is making, to deny men the pleasure of women's clothing.

I take on board your comments and appreciate your feedback.

Thanks for the exp mate, that was all way above my head first time round!

Hello Jeremy

Here are some thoughts I had

(03-09-2014, 07:35 AM)jeremyyoung Wrote:  The Feminist Case Against Cross-dressing

Scene 3

Hera enters. She wheels on a manikin draped in a baby blue baby-doll nightie.

Hera
Oh spite, be damned, witness this hatred, ...what "hatred" (i understand it could be something from the previous scene, but it feels of context, especially when the next line continues with "this sluttery..." to show a continuation of a feeling through repetition). I wasn't fond of the opening line because it felt tangential to the rest of the stanza and piece...
This sluttery and degradation of wanton
And flighty females to dress them thus. ...need "them"? or could it be replaced with "themselves"?
Is it not enough to endure the pain of birth?
Yet before, and after,
to be dressed in scantiness revealed ...I'm at odds on "revealed;" another participle could be used more accurately I feel
And break the pleasure of a wife’s
Rehealed virginity: for pleasure.
For shame! For double shame of giving
Twice the pleasure than a woman receives; ..like this and the previous line; well-expressed
And all the while risking the pain
Of children and the worry of nurture.

And these children,
When pulled from the body,
Are split into warriors for the state to slay ..."state" is an interesting word for the piece. it brings the issue to a larger societal and cultural level. It continues with the "patriarchy" described later on...
And subjects to be dressed thus, be tricked, ..."subject" instead of "subjects"?...
Be downcast and exploited of their maidenhood.
It is the curse of patriarchy:
Which word when sliced ...think another pronoun besides "which" could be more accurate...
Makes war of patriotism
And anarchy within the lives of women.

And just as the glories of the female form
Have increased allure, when draped sheer...small note on the tense; would just "increase" work better than "have increased"? Have the "glories of the female form" changed over time? while there is a critique on dress, such a change is not something the piece has really explored in my opinion
In disguise of the impurity: so
Aphrodite’s waters,
Masks the sin of pettier pleasure ...lots of repetition of "pleasure" in the piece
And call it love. I would as rather
My pearl were plucked,
That I might be senseless
To assault. Than I would dress thus. ..."then"

And this curse I lay,
may it carried by the dutiful wife: ...maybe passive--"may it be carried"
Since her life is without joy,
And her trust without reward,
For men take
The form of beasts at will
To double their double pleasure.
Let men be narrow in sensuality.
For if his licentious joys increase,
Even in the scruples weight,
The balance will o’er tip
And his need for woman will disappear.

I like the consistent wording used throughout and think the form is appropriate. I had some minor grammar questions and things, but enjoyed the read. Thanks for sharing

-geoff

Thanks Geoff.

The grammar does need addressing, and perhaps the archaic use of sluttery is too obscure these days.

I am pleased you enjoyed reading the piece, and appreciate your feedback.

I think this piece was well written compared to the other first few compositions I read. It has a certain older almost Shakespearean feeling however I hesitate to call it that because that places a bit too much expectation on a poem. Anyway, it seems like it is a tad bit general and feels like a first draft. I would try and zone in on one topic specifically, the other philosophical points could be reduced in importance.

Thanks for the feedback.

This has nothing to do with the way women dress.

Oops. I won't lie. I quickly scanned. After reading again. I feel terribly stupid. Other than that stupid error on my part. The rest of what I said stands, I enjoyed the archaic language and just feel the poem could be a tad bit more focused. Either way. I like the overall feel of what you are going for. And the poem just reads well.

After speed reading again...

(03-21-2014, 10:25 AM)jeremyyoung Wrote:  After speed reading again...

Not quite, I understand a bit better now your mentioning of men desiring and objectifying women, and male dominated society aka patriarchal society. I just feel like all of this goes in all directions and it could be focused a tad more on one of these. You know what I mean?

I think the best thing you did though was all of these ideas do connect well. and you transition effectively in each stanza when you mention for example, the line about how men give the worry of pain and child bearing while while getting more pleasure than a women, each of the ideas and the piece as a whole worked for me. and they transitioned well. I just think the ideas would be more effective as separate monologues by hera.

I suggest you study rhetoric.

At which point you will understand the satire.

(03-21-2014, 11:10 AM)jeremyyoung Wrote:  I suggest you study rhetoric.

At which point you will understand the satire.

Ah. I see. I'm fairly young, 17, to be exact. So. I'm learning. That's all I can do. I didn't quite get any hints of satire from it, but that might be my untrained eyes. Poetry (and reading it) appears to be a learned skill. You don't just "get it." It takes practice. So. In the future, my feedback might be of more use to you.

it would be more use to me if this thread were allowed to slowly sink into the void of page 2, since the rhetorical devices used have not been taught for two hundred years, hence why the jokes have not got laughs.