--well, there's two I wrote in PlainText, but it should probably be italicized, as internal monologue. Quotes work, too.

(12-13-2013, 02:29 AM)bena Wrote:  Here's one instance:


It was Christmas, and I thought,
It’s cold out.

(which is a kinda comma splice as written.) You could solve this by putting what you thought in quotes.
Also, you switch tenses from past to present.

Other than that it is darn near perfect....I adore your voice and striking images.

tah!

mel.

You forgot wake-woke-woken

trueenigma--props on farther not further

I feel a bit overwhelmed to enter such a detailed discussion after so much time and so I won't go into a detailed critique, but I have to say that I prefer the original draft. Apart from a few points where I would have differed stylistically, I found there to be moments of a clear music. The new draft seems a bit stifled to me. I think it's trying to incorporate too many different people's ideas about what the poems should be, and I think it's a shame because your voice seems much stronger than that. 'Can a snake get cold? Can a snake feel lost.[/b]' I missed that.

Quote:Entropy

It's us. Our big pink eyes are scared and dumb.
My brother's rabbit jumps, tumbles, and thumps
His way into the corner. Digs at the rug,
Wisely. Left a jagged, "So long, bub!"
On me bleeding. And my brother, my brother, is numb . . .
Talked to his wife today about the law,
Of all things. Puzzles over his accounts and slumps
His way into the kitchen for a beer. We don’t have any.

Sharp, grey eyes, cold, hungry, don't
Follow him. But once, they would have lunged.
They'd take the sick. It was better. Now we think
Doctors, ammo, medicine, and guns
Are best. And entropy alone we leave to kill us.
We walk, slouching, and where would we run?

I was cutting the hedge at noon today
When I saw the slim end of a tail slide
Over broken holly leaves, drifting
Slowly, poorly camouflaged. It was Christmas,
And I thought, "It’s cold out. Snakes should be under rocks,
Hidden." And I wondered what had woke him . . .

It's incomplete, and you seem to be going backwards. You should probably slow down.
Why the repetition? why the "bub" nonsense? /what's/ "us"?

And BTW I'm finding the Caps to start the lines confusing.

You only gave me half an edit! hahaha

Bub is a bugs bunny reference. Maybe "doc" would be better?

The repetition on "my brother" must've been a mistaken thought that "brother, my brother" is a common emphatic structure.

Lastly, I'm not familiar with the no-caps school of thought. I'll research the standard practice here in the States, but I'll lowercase on this forum from here on out.

After-lastly, the feedback, here, is non-suggestive. That is, there's nothing for me to work with in "what's with the X?" I'm happy to follow a guide, but there's no guide here, just a take-that kind of critique.

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I googled "brother, my brother," and it is certainly a common emphatic structure.

(12-19-2013, 01:58 PM)crow Wrote:  You only gave me half an edit! hahaha

Bub is a bugs bunny reference. Maybe "doc" would be better?

The repetition on "my brother" must've been a mistaken thought that "brother, my brother" is a common emphatic structure.

Lastly, I'm not familiar with the no-caps school of thought. I'll research the standard practice here in the States, but I'll lowercase on this forum from here on out.

After-lastly, the feedback, here, is non-suggestive. That is, there's nothing for me to work with in "what's with the X?" I'm happy to follow a guide, but there's no guide here, just a take-that kind of critique.

---

I googled "brother, my brother," and it is certainly a common emphatic structure.

/my/ feedback is often non-suggestive (aside from mentioning cuts and line breaks) and contrary to what it appears; the real reason for that is because I'm not one to presume that the author cannot come up with something better on their own.

Common structure or not, poetry does not strive to be common: you want an economy of words—say little, mean much.

Yes, but "do better on your own" runs counter to the presumption underlying a forum like this. Without a specified crit, I'm left in the position of a self-critical poet self-editing, but worse off because my natural self-doubts are affirmed. It's fine to shrug and say, I wasn't trying to do more than suggest that your work isn't great, but anybody can do that. I'm asking for suggestions that amount to more than, "I didn't like the first draft, and I really don't like the second."

I'm also not trying to force you to respond point-by-point to a point-by-point response to your critique. I spent some long hours rewriting to your edit. If you don't like the revision, cool, but . . . Now what?

(12-19-2013, 02:38 PM)crow Wrote:  Yes, but "do better on your own" runs counter to the presumption underlying a forum like this. Without a specified crit, I'm left in the position of a self-critical poet self-editing, but worse off because my natural self-doubts are affirmed. It's fine to shrug and say, I wasn't trying to do more than suggest that your work isn't great, but anybody can do that. I'm asking for suggestions that amount to more than, "I didn't like the first draft, and I really don't like the second."

I'm also not trying to force you to respond point-by-point to a point-by-point response to your critique. I spent some long hours rewriting to your edit. If you don't like the revision, cool, but . . . Now what?

Maybe read some poetry? Would you like me to give you some suggestions as to what poetry you should read? I pointed out specifics: brother, my brother doesn't work for me, bub is too silly and doesn't fit the tone; would you like me to rewrite for you again? Did you really mean for it to end trailing off in mid-thought? You didn't even bother to finish the revision and you want me to give you more suggestions?

Also, I don't see how you rewrote to my edit or addressed any of my points from our previous discussion: You opened on another fragment, and I have no idea what "us" is; you started S2 with a strung-together list of more fragments—why not use correct grammar and complete sentences?

---

Connect your thoughts—if you want to say the rabbit is us then why not just say it? Use a simile or metaphor which contains both parts connected in single sentence. If a metaphor, then go on to describe how they are alike on multiple levels; if a simile, then just compare a single part which is like its similitude, thusly:

Like my brother's rabbit we have big pink eyes that are scared and dumb.

"Maybe read some poetry" isn't useful. I'm sorry you're frustrated. A "series of strung together fragments" is, in fact, a sentence. S2 starts, "Sharp, grey eyes, cold, hungry, don't /
Follow him. But once, they would have lunged." The subject is "eyes" the verb is "don't follow" and, not that it needs it, the predicate is "him." I redrafted it this way in response to your critique that the snake is the most vivid image. I could have culled the others; instead, I chose to try strengthening them.

Yes, I would like some suggestions on what to read. I've taken your others. I'd especially appreciate suggestions related to the issues you're seeing with what I wrote.

"Doesn't work for me " isn't specific. It's vague. And you didn't say, "this doesn't fit the tone," you said, "why the bub nonsense?" I didn't open on a fragment, I opened with a pronoun lacking an antecedent. It's one of the most common devices in modern poetry. If you'd like me to post some examples from the November issue of Poetry Magazine, I believe there were two.

Lastly, in response to your notes, the reason I didn't say "the rabbit is us" is because that's the opposite of what I said. I said we're dumb, while the rabbit is acting wisely.

Now, let's take a breath.

Rigorous critique is undermined by aggression. This is dear work to me, and I made hard changes based on your line-by-line critique of half the poem. And that's good. I'm here to learn how to make hard choices.

You've posted a ton since you started in March. I respect that. If you tell me what you're after, I'll do my best to respond in kind. Please don't try to make me feel dumb or incompetent--I kinda feel that way already. If I wanted to get flamed, I'd go on 4chan.

---

Also, "would you like for me to rewrite it for you again?"

It's a rare few that wouldn't have been offended by you rewriting it the first time. That said, yes! Whatever you think the best form of a critique is, I'll take it. Rewriting it again would probably teach me something. It's presumptuous and confusing, but I'd be happy to, like the last time you rewrote my work, try to comprehend and respond to your feedback.

Just a reminder that this is a workshop, not a collaboration. Any informed, insightful commentary on your poem should be treated as a gift. Line-by-line, rewriting or any other form of critique might well be useful, but are not requirements of these forums. /admin

(12-19-2013, 04:06 PM)crow Wrote:  "Maybe read some poetry" isn't useful. I'm sorry you're frustrated. A "series of strung together fragments" is, in fact, a sentence. S2 starts, "Sharp, grey eyes, cold, hungry, don't /
Follow him. But once, they would have lunged." The subject is "eyes" the verb is "don't follow" and, not that it needs it, the predicate is "him." I redrafted it this way in response to your critique that the snake is the most vivid image. I could have culled the others; instead, I chose to try strengthening them.

Yes, I would like some suggestions on what to read. I've taken your others. I'd especially appreciate suggestions related to the issues you're seeing with what I wrote.

"Doesn't work for me " isn't specific. It's vague. And you didn't say, "this doesn't fit the tone," you said, "why the bub nonsense?" I didn't open on a fragment, I opened with a pronoun lacking an antecedent. It's one of the most common devices in modern poetry. If you'd like me to post some examples from the November issue of Poetry Magazine, I believe there were two.

Lastly, in response to your notes, the reason I didn't say "the rabbit is us" is because that's the opposite of what I said. I said we're dumb, while the rabbit is acting wisely.

Now, let's take a breath.

Rigorous critique is undermined by aggression. This is dear work to me, and I made hard changes based on your line-by-line critique of half the poem. And that's good. I'm here to learn how to make hard choices.

You've posted a ton since you started in March. I respect that. If you tell me what you're after, I'll do my best to respond in kind. Please don't try to make me feel dumb or incompetent--I kinda feel that way already. If I wanted to get flamed, I'd go on 4chan.

---

Also, "would you like for me to rewrite it for you again?"

It's a rare few that wouldn't have been offended by you rewriting it the first time. That said, yes! Whatever you think the best form of a critique is, I'll take it. Rewriting it again would probably teach me something. It's presumptuous and confusing, but I'd be happy to, like the last time you rewrote my work, try to comprehend and respond to your feedback.

I don't aim to insult. Nonsense is actually a technical term. It's not a nonsense poem, is it?

I don't have the time right now to rewrite your poem, nor do I think it is what's best right now. (Of course I don't always know what's best.)

"It's us" could be tacked on to the beginning of almost any poem and not change it a bit (aside from making it more confusing) unless of course it was followed with something like " 'it' is...[define 'it' here]".

As far as breathing and aggression, emotions do not come into play for me when discussion the technical aspects of poetry. I don't want to have to be the sole provider of crit for your poetry, but your responses are heading things in that direction. I am not frustrated. I do not hold your replies against you. You can not hurt my feelings, and my comments aren't made out of spite. I'm sorry if they were taken that way, and at the risk of going off topic no more will be written on the matter by me.

That being said; do not lose the bones of your first draft. I do like it. The issues I have with it lie beyond the realm of "dislike" or "like": just clean up your line breaks; shoot for double meanings, strong noun and verb clause caesuras that add perspective and point towards your central idea, etc. (I'm sure you have already been reading up on line breaks); and correct the grammar, fix the tenses; and arrange the poem in a rational and chronological order.

Will do.

trueenigma--I'm going over this poem for the umpteemillionith time, and I reread your revision.

It's really cool.

Like, really cool.

I'm hoping my next draft will be somewhere close . . .