Would you consider a rap artist like Nas to be a poet?

I don't know who that is, because I'm old -- but in general yes, a lot of rappers fall into the "poet" category. Now, ask if they're good poets...

Some most certainly are... but just like other styles of poetry, the vast majority are earbleedingly godawful. This is not necessarily a bad thing, because when a genuine talent comes along they really stand out. Whether the audience is appreciative enough to know they're in the presence of greatness is another story

2nd'did

i don't know him but i'm sure some rappers could be poets, and some could be good ones. that said would they be one trick ponies?

In some ways yes, more like a spoken word poet. Here's the trick with rap in my mind to say if it's poetry, if I can get someone, anyone really with a good speaking voice to get up in front of a crowd and read the rap in a bar or a coffee shop as a poem. If it can succeed without the rapper's charisma driving it than it would probably be a poem. I worked with a woman who liked rap, and she brought me lyrics from Nas, Tupac, and Common as examples of the best poets. If I remember correctly Nas and Tupac had a few raps that worked pretty well as poems. I remember thinking Common was probably the best of the three (but it's been a few years and I could be remembering wrong). There were always some things you'd need to cut out of the lyrics to make it more of a poem, but that's true of almost any song even (different media). The one rap that I remember going over that I thought had some nice poetic elements was Tupac's Me and My Girlfriend. It wasn't earthshaking, but I liked it.

I consider Tupac and Eminem poets. To answer your question I think it just depends on who it is. There are rap music that can be poetry and others that can never be poetry because it's that horrible.

Rappers use some of the same tools and are plagued by many of the same problems as poets and songwriters, but (as we've discussed in another thread) that only makes them similar- not the same.

I am very fond of Tupac's work. He attempted to write poetry as well as rap lyrics and as much as I recognize his skill with words set to music, it is clear that his poetry was filled with cliches that weren't successful in its medium:


IMO the above is horrible- although apparently heartfelt.

Having success as a poet is something I don't even understand, but having success as a rapper has very little to do with technical aspects of wording and much more dependent on personality and timing (both musically and chronologically).

Shad's one of my favourites, especially in a poetry aspect. Everyone needs to listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21e8tuq1zUk

Honestly, it's sincere, relevant, and very poetic.

I'm also a big fan of MF DOOM (obviously), Nas, Eminem and Wu-Tang.

(11-30-2012, 02:36 PM)Arriedo Wrote:  Would you consider a rap artist like Nas to be a poet?

Certainly. Rap is a mass-culture phenomenon that draws heavily from the prior tradition of spoken word poetry. However, some rappers are better poets than others.

The most poetically gifted rapper at large today, as far as I know, is Aesop Rock. Lots of other underground guys are intellectually formidable, and even some mainstream rappers can be pretty clever with their images. But as far as I'm concerned, no one comes close to Ian Michael Bavitz. His style could be accurately called surrealist poetry, and deals with deep themes and ideas, which are generally portrayed in magnificent wordplay. Check out the music video for "None Shall Pass" and you will get a taste:



This rap, to my mind, addresses better than anyone on the scene has yet the alienation of the modern laborer. The solution the song offers is admirably devoid of ideology. A couple of the more impressive lines:

"Okay woke to a grocery list: two things on it, duty and death."
"But it's a beautiful thing, to all my people who keep an impressive wingspan, even when the cubicle shrinks."

Thematically, everyone else is rapping about how hard they party, how much they drink, how much money they have. Ace Rock shits on all of them, if for no other reason than that he addresses something "real," to put in hip-hop parlance, as in something that 90% of his audience can relate to on a heartfelt, human level. But technically, he is dazzling, too.

@jdeirmend Never really got into rap, but your post makes me want to explore it some more!

(11-30-2012, 02:36 PM)Arriedo Wrote:  Would you consider a rap artist like Nas to be a poet?

Yes.
And as with all sentient product: It may or may not
correlate with shoe size.

P.S. This depends, of course, on your definition of 'poetry';
which, like most esthetic commodities, is fun to discuss
but utterly useless and unnecessary when producing it.

I think lyrics and poetry are worlds apart, I'm a metalhead (which if you analyze closely is extremely similar to rap) but lyrics tend to have a mind of their own not really concerned about anything with the likes of punctuation or proper rhythm because when singing it's different compared to reading or speaking because you can slur and jumble words to sound a bit different. I have found quite a few rappers that I like specifically for their honesty and their passion, poetically they would be amature and not all that impressive, I myself have a hard time making lyrical material stick in a poetic setting but I do find it tickling that most rappers on certain forums like my writing a little too much,

I forgot where I was going with this.....
oh well
but my overall point is lyrics of any sort are completely different from poetry they are less structured but tend to be more honest

Just some things I'm curious about that post.

Now I know this isn't a music forum or anything, but I am interested in hearing why you believe metal and rap lyrics to be extremely similar. Just curious really.

I can understand the point about lyrics being sung not necessarily poetry in the sense that it being sung is different than it would be read or written (I don't necessarily agree with this though), but rap tends to have a very forced metre and rhyme scheme, one that would qualify it for the definition you give to poetry.

(11-08-2013, 02:54 PM)Viktor Vaughn Wrote:  Just some things I'm curious about that post.

Now I know this isn't a music forum or anything, but I am interested in hearing why you believe metal and rap lyrics to be extremely similar. Just curious really.

I can understand the point about lyrics being sung not necessarily poetry in the sense that it being sung is different than it would be read or written (I don't necessarily agree with this though), but rap tends to have a very forced metre and rhyme scheme, one that would qualify it for the definition you give to poetry.

That depends on which poet is rapping.

Can rappers be poets? Well, that depends.-- Do they write poetry? Is rap poetry? No. It's a performance art. Poetry is words on a page. Some rap may work as a poem, but not necessarily any better than lyrics from any other genre IMO.

Slam poetry is something entirely different, and may be pretty closely related to rap, in some ways, but that's a different animal.

(11-09-2013, 08:10 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  Can rappers be poets? Well, that depends.-- Do they write poetry? Is rap poetry? No. It's a performance art. Poetry is words on a page. Some rap may work as a poem, but not necessarily any better than lyrics from any other genre IMO.

Slam poetry is something entirely different, and may be pretty closely related to rap, in some ways, but that's a different animal.

Poetry is not just words on a page. If it were, why would we bother with sonics at all? Why use alliteration? Why rhyme? Why use meter?

Poetry is on a page for recording purposes only. With a few exceptions (e.g. concrete poetry), sound should be one of its primary concerns. Rap is no less poetry than a limerick is -- and just like limericks, there are some great examples even if the vast majority happens to be puerile and pathetic.

(11-09-2013, 08:10 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  ... performance art. Poetry is words on a page ...

Evolutionary-succession-wise:
1. Mouth
2. Ear
3. Hand
4. Eye (image forming)

Mouth -> Ear:   Speech

Hand -> Eye:   Writing

Mouth -> Asshole*:   Poetry

*The asshole evolved almost immediately after the mouth as animals with mouths
alone tended to quickly fill and explode. But, as luck would have it, one of those
very explosions threw our primogenitor on its ass against some primordial pinnacle
which tore it a new (and wholly first) asshole from which we have all descended.
Unfortunately (from the effect of one of those pesky dualisms that eastern religions
are always going on about), as mouths created assholes; assholes created poetry.
The world became so full of poetry that most of these poor animals were forced, by
the very act of opening their newly acquired mouths, to eat it and die. But our
dialectical forebearers (as Hegel would have it), were not only able to exist,
but to flourish, on this incestuous diet. And while environmentalists have come to
call it recycling, we proudly progenous assholes everywhere have come to call poetry.

(11-09-2013, 08:10 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  ... that's a different animal ...

(poet is 3rd from left)

(11-09-2013, 05:00 PM)Leanne Wrote:  

(11-09-2013, 08:10 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  Can rappers be poets? Well, that depends.-- Do they write poetry? Is rap poetry? No. It's a performance art. Poetry is words on a page. Some rap may work as a poem, but not necessarily any better than lyrics from any other genre IMO.

Slam poetry is something entirely different, and may be pretty closely related to rap, in some ways, but that's a different animal.

Poetry is not just words on a page. If it were, why would we bother with sonics at all? Why use alliteration? Why rhyme? Why use meter?

Poetry is on a page for recording purposes only. With a few exceptions (e.g. concrete poetry), sound should be one of its primary concerns. Rap is no less poetry than a limerick is -- and just like limericks, there are some great examples even if the vast majority happens to be puerile and pathetic.

Sure, the sounds are important. But the sounds that come from the words. Rappers use alliteration, etc. but it's more about the artist's charisma and delivery. Music doesn't have to be compared to poetry in order to be validated, and doing so isn't fair. poetry and music are related, but not the same thing. Here, on a poetry site, where our main medium is the words on the page, I'm more concerned with literature.

I have poems posted here that on stage, I perform as raps. Are they no longer poems then? Or were they never poems, just raps in disguise?

(11-10-2013, 05:41 AM)Leanne Wrote:  I have poems posted here that on stage, I perform as raps. Are they no longer poems then? Or were they never poems, just raps in disguise?

I demand videos of Leanne the rapper!

Sorry, far too cool -- any video equipment instantly ices over.