I think this is a good illustration of how all the space surrounding Judas Iscariot can be used by a poem.

Saint Judas

When I went out to kill myself, I caught
A pack of hoodlums beating up a man.
Running to spare his suffering, I forgot
My name, my number, how my day began,
How soldiers milled around the garden stone
And sang amusing songs; how all that day
Their javelins measured crowds; how I alone
Bargained the proper coins, and slipped away.

Banished from heaven, I found this victim beaten,
Stripped, kneed, and left to cry. Dropping my rope
Aside, I ran, ignored the uniforms:
Then I remembered bread my flesh had eaten,
The kiss that ate my flesh. Flayed without hope,
I held the man for nothing in my arms.

James Arlington Wright

I think the literary term you are looking for is "allusion" not "white space" which has a specific definition in poetry that is /not/ being utilized in this poem at all.

Then again, taking into consideration your usual clumsiness, you may mean alliteration, the world may never know.

(09-10-2013, 01:33 AM)milo Wrote:  I think the literary term you are looking for is "allusion" not "white space" which has a specific definition in poetry that is /not/ being utilized in this poem at all.

Then again, taking into consideration your usual clumsiness, you may mean alliteration, the world may never know.

Milo,

I wasn't the one who started using the term "white space". I am very aware of white space is. I believe the original poster who mentioned it (EileenGreay) was metaphorically using the term to talk about how the poem resides in the our collective sense of literature. She wasn't talking about allusion, which is an indirect reference.

By the way, James Wright is not alluding to Judas at all.

If I write "Not with a bang but a whimper." I am alluding to "The Hollow Men". If I directly mention "The Hollow Men", it is no longer an allusion.

Bill

(09-10-2013, 01:51 AM)btrudo Wrote:  

(09-10-2013, 01:33 AM)milo Wrote:  I think the literary term you are looking for is "allusion" not "white space" which has a specific definition in poetry that is /not/ being utilized in this poem at all.

Then again, taking into consideration your usual clumsiness, you may mean alliteration, the world may never know.

Milo,

I wasn't the one who started using the term "white space". I am very aware of white space is. I believe the original poster who mentioned it (EileenGreay) was metaphorically using the term to talk about how the poem resides in the our collective sense of literature. She wasn't talking about allusion, which is an indirect reference.

By the way, James Wright is not alluding to Judas at all.

If I write "Not with a bang but a whimper." I am alluding to "The Hollow Men". If I directly mention "The Hollow Men", it is no longer an allusion.

Bill

First, you are incorrect with the usages of allusion. You can allude to character, famous works, even authors.

By mentioning Judas Iscariot, you /allude/ to the biblical stories of Judas Iscariot. The reason authors do this is the economy presented. An literary work that alludes to another literary work, character or author inherits the properties, as the author did in the above sonnet. Judas Iscariot appears nowhere in the above sonnet, but the sonnet inherits his history, an excellent example of allusion.

As to why you are misusing the literary term "white space" now on top of the ter "allusion" I can't quite figure out what you are saying other than it is someone else's fault(?)

*note, I went back and checked, and Eileengreay has white representing the literal white space in the poem. IOW, they used the term properly in their free verse poem, you are continuing to use it improperly in this sonnet.

(09-10-2013, 02:21 AM)milo Wrote:  

(09-10-2013, 01:51 AM)btrudo Wrote:  

(09-10-2013, 01:33 AM)milo Wrote:  I think the literary term you are looking for is "allusion" not "white space" which has a specific definition in poetry that is /not/ being utilized in this poem at all.

Then again, taking into consideration your usual clumsiness, you may mean alliteration, the world may never know.

Milo,

I wasn't the one who started using the term "white space". I am very aware of white space is. I believe the original poster who mentioned it (EileenGreay) was metaphorically using the term to talk about how the poem resides in the our collective sense of literature. She wasn't talking about allusion, which is an indirect reference.

By the way, James Wright is not alluding to Judas at all.

If I write "Not with a bang but a whimper." I am alluding to "The Hollow Men". If I directly mention "The Hollow Men", it is no longer an allusion.

Bill

First, you are incorrect with the usages of allusion. You can allude to character, famous works, even authors.

By mentioning Judas Iscariot, you /allude/ to the biblical stories of Judas Iscariot. The reason authors do this is the economy presented. An literary work that alludes to another literary work, character or author inherits the properties, as the author did in the above sonnet. Judas Iscariot appears nowhere in the above sonnet, but the sonnet inherits his history, an excellent example of allusion.

As to why you are misusing the literary term "white space" now on top of the ter "allusion" I can't quite figure out what you are saying other than it is someone else's fault(?)

*note, I went back and checked, and Eileengreay has white representing the literal white space in the poem. IOW, they used the term properly in their free verse poem, you are continuing to use it improperly in this sonnet.

Ah, well this explains away a lot of my confusion at your comments, Bill...

As Milo has pointed out, I was using 'blank space' to refer to the physical white spaces in which a poem rests - the space it inhabits, the gaps between words, and this is related to the notion of mise-en-page.

What you are referring to is allusion indeed, but I think the real word you're looking for is intertextuality.

Julia Kristeva coined this term, and declared that "any text is constructed as a mosaic of quotations; any text is the absorption and transformation of another". The 'space' you are referring to is intertextual space - Barthes also wrote on this, but I don't think he used the term intertextuality...

I don't have much time to offer a thorough explanation, but what you mean is certainly not 'blank space' but rather a web of citations and references.

Sorry this is hurried. I'll try and clarify later.

Sorry Eileen,

If you were referring about the literal white space, then I would suggest you read more poems that do actually use the white space.
People do all kinds of things with the position of the words on the page (indent, moving lines up and down, etc.). I can go back and show other things you might want to think about in terms of word placement.

I have seen some extremely effective uses of line and word placement to back the poem. Most free verse (including yours) make very limited use. The page is 2-D, so there is a lot you can do.

By the way, you weren't alluding to Judas in your poem. It would be nice if people looked up what allusion is.
Bill



Milo,

I wasn't the one who started using the term "white space". I am very aware of white space is. I believe the original poster who mentioned it (EileenGreay) was metaphorically using the term to talk about how the poem resides in the our collective sense of literature. She wasn't talking about allusion, which is an indirect reference.

By the way, James Wright is not alluding to Judas at all.

If I write "Not with a bang but a whimper." I am alluding to "The Hollow Men". If I directly mention "The Hollow Men", it is no longer an allusion.

Bill
[/quote]

First, you are incorrect with the usages of allusion. You can allude to character, famous works, even authors.

By mentioning Judas Iscariot, you /allude/ to the biblical stories of Judas Iscariot. The reason authors do this is the economy presented. An literary work that alludes to another literary work, character or author inherits the properties, as the author did in the above sonnet. Judas Iscariot appears nowhere in the above sonnet, but the sonnet inherits his history, an excellent example of allusion.

As to why you are misusing the literary term "white space" now on top of the ter "allusion" I can't quite figure out what you are saying other than it is someone else's fault(?)

*note, I went back and checked, and Eileengreay has white representing the literal white space in the poem. IOW, they used the term properly in their free verse poem, you are continuing to use it improperly in this sonnet.
[/quote]

Ah, well this explains away a lot of my confusion at your comments, Bill...

As Milo has pointed out, I was using 'blank space' to refer to the physical white spaces in which a poem rests - the space it inhabits, the gaps between words, and this is related to the notion of mise-en-page.

What you are referring to is allusion indeed, but I think the real word you're looking for is intertextuality.

Julia Kristeva coined this term, and declared that "any text is constructed as a mosaic of quotations; any text is the absorption and transformation of another". The 'space' you are referring to is intertextual space - Barthes also wrote on this, but I don't think he used the term intertextuality...

I don't have much time to offer a thorough explanation, but what you mean is certainly not 'blank space' but rather a web of citations and references.

Sorry this is hurried. I'll try and clarify later.
[/quote]

(09-10-2013, 03:31 AM)btrudo Wrote:  By the way, you weren't alluding to Judas in your poem. It would be nice if people looked up what allusion is.

allusion is a difficult concept for beginning readers so it is not surprising you are struggling with it.

If you mention Judas, you are /alluding/ to the stories (mostly biblical) about Judas, not Judas directly.

If you mentioned a sack of silver for a kiss on the lips you would be alluding to Judas.

You see the difference now or is this still too complex?

Quote:Sorry Eileen,

If you were referring about the literal white space, then I would suggest you read more poems that do actually use the white space.
People do all kinds of things with the position of the words on the page (indent, moving lines up and down, etc.). I can go back and show other things you might want to think about in terms of word placement.

I have seen some extremely effective uses of line and word placement to back the poem. Most free verse (including yours) make very limited use. The page is 2-D, so there is a lot you can do.

By the way, you weren't alluding to Judas in your poem. It would be nice if people looked up what allusion is.
Bill

Ah, my dear, it would also be lovely if people looked up the term 'blank space' before instructing people in how to best utilise it! I'd also remind you that I never claimed to be alluding to anything (I merely used a name in my title). I was merely relabelling what you had mistakenly labelled as 'blank space'.

If I were the one caught incorrectly using terminology, I think I would apologise for the incorrect usage, rather than accusing others of fault. Perhaps something for you to keep in mind?

I hope this does not offend you, Bill. If you are so adamant that others learn from you, you must also be willing to accept the possibility that you are incorrect and have much to learn from others.

Eileen

Eileen, I admit I misunderstood what you meant about white space. I often think in metaphor and analogy and the metaphorical white space was a lot more interesting to me than the literal white space on the page. That's my fault.

As for adamant about learning, I don't care if you listen to a word I wrote. But discussion can allow you to uncover things. Given that you resorted to throwing sand in my eyes, "You are now misinterpreting Milton, and I am embarrassed for you",...well, good luck with your writing.

---

If you don't like my use of "white space", tough shit, milo. I clearly said that I believed she was talking metaphorically.

What am I talking about is more than "intertextuality" if intertextuality limits its scope to written literature. I would have to read their words. Judas looms a lot larger than our written texts.

But, milo, you still want to go on with your lessons...

By the way, do you know what alliteration is, milo? It's a bit more specific than what most writers believe.
Bill

(09-10-2013, 07:01 AM)btrudo Wrote:  Eileen, I admit I misunderstood what you meant about white space. I often think in metaphor and analogy and the metaphorical white space was a lot more interesting to me than the literal white space on the page. That's my fault.

As for adamant about learning, I don't care if you listen to a word I wrote. But discussion can allow you to uncover things. Given that you resorted to throwing sand in my eyes, "You are now misinterpreting Milton, and I am embarrassed for you",...well, good luck with your writing.

---

If you don't like my use of "white space", tough shit, milo. I clearly said that I believed she was talking metaphorically.

What am I talking about is more than "intertextuality" if intertextuality limits its scope to written literature. I would have to read their words. Judas looms a lot larger than our written texts.

But, milo, you still want to go on with your lessons...

By the way, do you know what alliteration is, milo? It's a bit more specific than what most writers believe.
Bill

well, if you are finished "teaching" me about white space or "teaching" me about allusion, I suppose I could give you the link right here on this site that defines it so you can brush up first.

i wouldn't want you to look foolish . . .

(note, it is foolish, not foolishly)

settle down everyone.
Eileen has not thrown sand in anyone's eyes, in fact i found her post enlightening. In the discussion forums we allow links specially if they're on site links people are not ganging up on you bill. they're putting their POV across as you have yours.

from what i see of the opening post, the only white space used is the common white space created by the last line break of each verse. the thing we normally call white space in a poem has not been utilized. l'm not a learned man but i know not to defend the indefensible unless i'm talking to my dolly. that two pretty competent poets (milo and Eileen) have stated something at odds with your world view of white space along with the fact that no one else has taken up your a cudgel on your behalf should give you some idea which is the side of the fence poets should stand on.
it's okay to get something wrong...I do all the time, accept it as new knowledge and embrace it.

< self-referential intertextual poem ironically alluding to white space >
this poem
(as an example)
has been intentionally left blank
- - -


One possible chain of intertextuality:
Heinrich => Bernstein (=?> Raworth) => anon (printing term)

and i am









thinking about what to write

It looks like

some white

((((space))))

was freed up

on the site

Milo! /this/ is what you were talking about with all of that it's-not-an-allusion-nonsense! Lol

Sorry, I wasn't in on your brilliant joke. I missed this thread.

(09-15-2013, 06:38 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  Milo! /this/ is what you were talking about with all of that it's-not-an-allusion-nonsense! Lol

Sorry, I wasn't in on your brilliant joke. I missed this thread.

it is too bad he left, I sensed good times as he taught me what alliteration is.

allusion, alliteration, assonance, they all sound the same to me. You may have noticed I use white space quite a bit--I wonder if it is because I also paint, and I am trying to make the page visually pretty. Dunno, never thought about it much.

(09-19-2013, 10:29 PM)bena Wrote:  allusion, alliteration, assonance, they all sound the same to me. You may have noticed I use white space quite a bit--I wonder if it is because I also paint, and I am trying to make the page visually pretty. Dunno, never thought about it much.

We didn't know you when we made this thread so I doubt that is what we were thinking about.

(09-19-2013, 10:29 PM)bena Wrote:  allusion, alliteration, assonance, they all sound the same to me. You may have noticed I use white space quite a bit--I wonder if it is because I also paint, and I am trying to make the page visually pretty. Dunno, never thought about it much.

They make you thinks about all sorts of stuff here.

(09-19-2013, 10:38 PM)milo Wrote:  

(09-19-2013, 10:29 PM)bena Wrote:  allusion, alliteration, assonance, they all sound the same to me. You may have noticed I use white space quite a bit--I wonder if it is because I also paint, and I am trying to make the page visually pretty. Dunno, never thought about it much.

We didn't know you when we made this thread so I doubt that is what we were thinking about.

Well, silly, I'm not vain enough to think the whole thread was about me! I was just reflecting on my personal use of white space. Although that whole Allusion Island argument confused me a bit.