(09-10-2013, 01:31 AM)btrudo Wrote:  As one great Furnace flam'd, yet from those flames
No light, but rather darkness visible

By the way, darkness IS visible. It may not contain any light, but is "manifest, apparent". Perceptual centers of your brain are very aware of what darkness is. It's not with darkness visible that Milton is messing with the reader. He took our very keen perceptual awareness of darkness and light and twisted them...flames with no light. And he knew exactly what he was doing when he did that.

Bill, Bill, Bill will you just stop? You are now misinterpreting Milton, and I am embarrassed for you. If I open my eyes in the darkness, my brain tells me that it is dark. Yes. Of course. However, NOTHING is visible. I don't see anything. Sight cannot function without light. Get it? 'Darkness visible' is a complete paradox, which you would realise if you interrogated the phrase further.

I don't really see this as being up for argument. You are wrong. Centuries of scholarship on Milton is right.

(09-10-2013, 01:45 AM)EileenGreay Wrote:  

(09-10-2013, 01:31 AM)btrudo Wrote:  As one great Furnace flam'd, yet from those flames
No light, but rather darkness visible

By the way, darkness IS visible. It may not contain any light, but is "manifest, apparent". Perceptual centers of your brain are very aware of what darkness is. It's not with darkness visible that Milton is messing with the reader. He took our very keen perceptual awareness of darkness and light and twisted them...flames with no light. And he knew exactly what he was doing when he did that.

Bill, Bill, Bill will you just stop? You are now misinterpreting Milton, and I am embarrassed for you. If I open my eyes in the darkness, my brain tells me that it is dark. Yes. Of course. However, NOTHING is visible. I don't see anything. Sight cannot function without light. Get it? 'Darkness visible' is a complete paradox, which you would realise if you interrogated the phrase further.

I don't really see this as being up for argument. You are wrong. Centuries of scholarship on Milton is right.

Tb
This one on one stuff is all very well but it is way too exclusive for this forum. If it ends here that would be to the common good. When two good wordsmiths disagree it is unnerving to find the argument deteriorating into acrimony. Good as you both are, stop this now or the whole shebang will be transported to discussion...what could be worse?
tectak/mod

Hello Eileen, I'm just going to address the revision and have deliberately not read prior comments, so forgive me if anything I say is redundant but I prefer to let such a glorious poem stand outside of any other opinions.

(09-05-2013, 04:39 AM)EileenGreay Wrote:  The chalk was quite done exploring -- this is a beautifully British and proper beginning, sounding a little like a schoolmarm, which works very well with the chalk
each little chapel of your lungs, -- a Catholic schoolmarm
clawing at your skin and drawing -- the rhyme is subtle and the meter is well controlled
a rudimentary alphabet upon your shattered cheeks. -- "rudimentary" breaks the rhythm for me and also, because I'm a little bit cheesy, I thought I'd suggest "an alphabet, basic upon your shattered cheeks" (which of course is probably just me being silly)
The briny wind had given you a good sniff,
like a starved rottweiler -- personally I'd remove "like" and give this metaphor status
stalking about your ruined flesh,
growling at the splintered gorges of your skin. -- the parallels with the land are strong here and very welcome, in a bit of an "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" sense
The kind sea rushed to embrace you,
her lips and fingers woven through your matted hair. -- for me, this is a little on the hackneyed side -- romance novels weave fingers through hair and give me instant cringe
Then, one big lift,
and off you drift - - -

And now you lie
full fathom five
with pearls for eyes.
And of your face -
no trace, no trace
of hunt or chase. -- this is a stunning stanza. The change of pace, the solid meter and rhyme are reminiscent of Tennyson and it's calling up all sorts of imagery for me

Your final lines
of white and red,
set in the chalk
at Beachy Head. -- another story written in chalk against chalk, lost but for the red that spells only the ending and no more of the life. This is tragic. I wonder though if you'd consider making this a two-line stanza to allow a contrast between it and the previous? It seems like it deserves to be more musing.

Very much enjoyed the subtlety and rich language herein. Thank you.

Tectak, I am most sorry - I lost my patience slightly. Please forgive my lapse into frustration; let us leave this discussion here, Bill.

Leanne, thank you for your kind, insightful feedback. I'll certainly consider many of your ideas in a final edit when I get around to it.

I really thought you were talking metaphorically. That white space is much more interesting than the literal white space...
I can see waves (of course, if you vary line length, you're probably going to have waves) and a tombstone or burial plot.
If you're thinking of the first stanza as waves, you might want the wave to be lifting on "then, one big lift". The previous line is lifting, but you probably want a lift, longer line, on the actual word. Also if there is wave action in the poem, you probably want to switch the "rushed" to "rushes" but that will mess around with rhythm of the line.

If it's a tombstone, is it a fitting epitaph?

Though if you really want to contemplate the white space, what else do you want? I have seen people literally lift words out of sentences to show lifting action.
________________lift,
____________big_____and
and then, one ____________off you drift.

(of course, remove the ___)

I'm not suggesting you do that; some of that comes across to me a bit gimmicky. But also I've seen the "gimmicks" really work.

It's just that if you're thinking of the white space, there is a LOT MORE opportunity to use it.

another thought,
Bill

should have previewed first...didn't format at first.