Worn images, like old but distant friends,
flicker in and out of cluttered minds.
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs
of bloodied children, dusted by their war;
small price, we note, for freedom’s curdling call.
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies
do not move us anymore.

We hoped one sun would be the God
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs
into that promised meld of humankind.
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt,
or by attrition reach a settling point.
We pray for peace no more.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all you gained is lost to join the game?
What trait within the evolution meme
can kill the child, yet pass unscathed through time?
And when in comfort, wrapped warm in our beds,
what answers spring as Sleep comes drawn by Peace?
Not one; we do not stir but dream away your war.

Tectak
2013

Quote:The images are old familiar friends
"Old familiar friends" is on the edge of cliche. By itself, it would be over the edge, but maybe it's not because of what follows. It's something to think about.
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds.
I like the pair "flicker" and clutter" here.
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs,
of blooded children dusted by their war;
Do you mean "bloodied"? "Blooded" doesn't necessarily mean injured, e.g. "cold-blooded". Also, with "their", it sounds like the prior referent is "children", but the young usually fight the wars of their elders.
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call.
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies
do not move us anymore.
I see a conflict here with "We cry sometimes" above.

It seems one sun above is not the God,
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs
into that promised meld of humankind.
This is a little confusing to me. Are you trying to express insufficiency, i.e. "one sun above is not enough/to steal..."?
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt;
I think the above semicolon needs to be a comma, since what follows is a dependent clause.
or by attrition reach a setting point.
We pray for peace no more.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game?
What trait within the evolution meme
If I understand it correctly, a meme is supposed to be like a conceptual virus. You make it sound like evolution as a concept is responsible. I think "stream" would make more sense for traits that flow to us from ancestors.
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds,
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?
Not one; we dream away each war.

(06-19-2013, 09:44 PM)tectak Wrote:  My Grammar is not the greatest, but I'll do a line by line.

The images are old familiar friends--- Images is vague I think you could provide a more specific image to have a more powerful impact.
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds. -- Whose cluttered minds?
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs, -- Any specific examples of broken limbs. Maybe a better verb than cry can be used i.e. moan.
of blooded children dusted by their war; - I get why used blooded here it provides a chance for a stressed followed by unstressed. Svan may have a point the meaning comes across but it could be judged as sloppy and forced.
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call. -More on the curdling call of freedom I think the idea is not expanded on enough.
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies -- Corpses strewn across the battlefield as dolls with vacant button eyes
do not move us anymore. -- What do you mean by move, I assume emotionally moved but I think this can be more specifically explained.

It seems one sun above is not the God,
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs
into that promised meld of humankind.
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt;
or by attrition reach a setting point. - This metaphor to a burning mold of sorts is interesting I'd like to see the metaphor become clearer and I would like more descriptions of furnaces. I think of steel factories which I like. In addition to using other punctuation besides a semicolon you can make the next line an independent clause.
We pray for peace no more. -- Reminds me of the War Prayer by Mark Twain.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game? -- More on the metaphor of the game perhaps you could describe a game of cards or something.
What trait within the evolution meme - I don't get evolution meme
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds,
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?
Not one; we dream away each war. - Distant Bullets have become white noise

Tectak
2013

Obviously, I love the topic and I think there is some potential here if you do some editing and don't give up on the poem. I was intrigued by the image of a furnace, and I think if you cut away some of the superfluous filler words and replaced them with imagery or something you could pull out a good poem here.

Every time I see such penetrating critique I wonder how you guys can even draw yourself out from the grasp of such beautiful imagery and the emotionally charged subject to begin looking at these words so rationally and decide what is or isn't "poetically correct". (Ah! Clever me.*Pats himself on the back.* )

I loved the poem. And when I look at the critiques, I learn how poetry is more than just the sewing of words together. Thanks guys, this is the best learning experience I have had in years.

(06-19-2013, 11:20 PM)svanhoeven Wrote:  

Quote:The images are old familiar friends
"Old familiar friends" is on the edge of cliche. By itself, it would be over the edge, but maybe it's not because of what follows. It's something to think about.
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds.
I like the pair "flicker" and clutter" here.
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs,
of blooded children dusted by their war;
Do you mean "bloodied"? "Blooded" doesn't necessarily mean injured, e.g. "cold-blooded". Also, with "their", it sounds like the prior referent is "children", but the young usually fight the wars of their elders.exactly...this is what I am tying to say. The children "inherit" war and make it "theirs"
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call.
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies
do not move us anymore.
I see a conflict here with "We cry sometimes" above.

It seems one sun above is not the God,
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs
into that promised meld of humankind.
This is a little confusing to me. Are you trying to express insufficiency, i.e. "one sun above is not enough/to steal..."?
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt;
I think the above semicolon needs to be a comma, since what follows is a dependent clause.
or by attrition reach a setting point.
We pray for peace no more.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game?
What trait within the evolution meme
If I understand it correctly, a meme is supposed to be like a conceptual virus. You make it sound like evolution as a concept is responsible. I think "stream" would make more sense for traits that flow to us from ancestors.
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds,
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?
Not one; we dream away each war.

Hi svan,
You make some fine catches here. Thank you. First off...bloodied. Yes. I would like to say it was a typo but it was not. Mistake.
I hope the "we cry sometimes" does not conflict. The emotional insistence of the tear I was hoping to imply was a reflex act...whereas considered emotional response is dumbed down. Did I succeed? Probably not. I will take a view.
One sun...is not THE god. No. Not insufficiency....just not the god we hoped for. Not the right god even though it is ONE sun for all mankind. Complex metaphor which I hate in others
You are comma correct. It will be changed.
memes...memes are the psycho-social traits passed down through generations by nurture not nature...put simply. It has always amazed me that suffering societies find it more conveniently disastrous to pass on hate rather than love. Sad. Death is not the evolutionary weeder of the weak meme as it is with the regressive gene.
"Memes that replicate most effectively enjoy more success, and some may replicate effectively even when they prove to be detrimental to the welfare of their hosts." but that's Wiki for you!

Best,
tectak

---

(06-20-2013, 02:05 AM)Brownlie Wrote:  

(06-19-2013, 09:44 PM)tectak Wrote:  My Grammar is not the greatest, but I'll do a line by line.

The images are old familiar friends--- Images is vague I think you could provide a more specific image to have a more powerful impact.
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds. -- Whose cluttered minds?
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs, -- Any specific examples of broken limbs. Maybe a better verb than cry can be used i.e. moan.
of blooded children dusted by their war; - I get why used blooded here it provides a chance for a stressed followed by unstressed. Svan may have a point the meaning comes across but it could be judged as sloppy and forced.
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call. -More on the curdling call of freedom I think the idea is not expanded on enough.
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies -- Corpses strewn across the battlefield as dolls with vacant button eyes
do not move us anymore. -- What do you mean by move, I assume emotionally moved but I think this can be more specifically explained.

It seems one sun above is not the God,
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs
into that promised meld of humankind.
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt;
or by attrition reach a setting point. - This metaphor to a burning mold of sorts is interesting I'd like to see the metaphor become clearer and I would like more descriptions of furnaces. I think of steel factories which I like. In addition to using other punctuation besides a semicolon you can make the next line an independent clause.
We pray for peace no more. -- Reminds me of the War Prayer by Mark Twain.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game? -- More on the metaphor of the game perhaps you could describe a game of cards or something.
What trait within the evolution meme - I don't get evolution meme
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds,
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?
Not one; we dream away each war. - Distant Bullets have become white noise

Tectak
2013

Obviously, I love the topic and I think there is some potential here if you do some editing and don't give up on the poem. I was intrigued by the image of a furnace, and I think if you cut away some of the superfluous filler words and replaced them with imagery or something you could pull out a good poem here.

Hi brownlie,
Thanks for this. Many of your points have been touched on in my response to svan.
I wish I could please you more but I find myself inadequate to your requirements more often than not.You often ask me to expand the insignificant and I hear you but cannot oblige because invariably you ask for detail in distractions. Perhaps if you could indicate by example what purpose you feel would be served by describing in surgical detail the horrors of war injuries of children or the various styles, types and purposes of furnaces and contract bridge.
I am genuinely interested in your suggestions.
Best,
tectak
PS I did not understand the "..distant bullets....white noise" reference... but wish I did!

the title makes me ask the question, is the narrator the objector or are we all objectors in some way. i think the opening line says more than words. from images i get news coverage etc. media. the word flicker automatically made me think of the news. i think in places it's wordy. words like [seem] and [sometimes] weaken the statement of the poem. most of my feedback is borderline nit. the cliche parts and the last three lines are more than nits. i did enjoy the poem the images were well structured. i just need to read it a few more times to getter a better insight into it. i will read the piece again

(06-19-2013, 09:44 PM)tectak Wrote:  The images are old familiar friends
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds. a suggestion to make the 1st two lines less cliche would be [of the clutter] to know you meant cluttered minds wouldn't take more than a very small leap by the reader, i'd also suggest [some images] as the start of the opening line. even so, the opening isn't too bad as it is.
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs,
of bloodied children dusted by their war; as it is, [their war] sounds to ambiguous a suggest if you meant the war of of adults would be [their father's war]
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call. i like the c's, [small price to pay] is cliche no matter what it's attached to. a suggestion would be [what price for fr....] while [what price] verges on cliche almost as much, it would help out a little bit
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies i like the image of this line. i also like the ambiguity of ripped hearts. adult hearts, kids hearts, i like that the reader can pick which way to take the suffering
do not move us anymore. and this line; while very weak in content or image , is actually very strong as a juxtaposition to the previous lines.

It seems one sun above is not the God, why [it seems] why not just [one sun above....] make it a bold statement. personally i think son would work better with what follows but sun does give a sort of pagan feel to use as the failed crow bar
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs i think this is an excellent line. many will pass by thinking they know what it means, a lovely way to use the word.
into that promised meld of humankind.
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt,
or by attrition reach a setting point.
We pray for peace no more.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game?
What trait within the evolution meme i'm thinking we're talking about natural selection that says kill to survive. or only the strong survive.
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds, a big cliche
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?
Not one; we dream away each war. the last three lines feel forced

Tectak
2013

(06-19-2013, 09:44 PM)tectak Wrote:  The images are old familiar friends
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds.
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs,
of bloodied children dusted by their war;
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call.
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies
do not move us anymore.

It seems one sun above is not the God,
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs
into that promised meld of humankind.
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt,
or by attrition reach a setting point.
We pray for peace no more.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game?Just a little wordy
What trait within the evolution meme
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds,
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?just a little wordy
Not one; we dream away each war.

Tectak
2013

I liked the poem. aside from a few places where some imagery could be, I see it flowing well and descriptive enough to get the point across without adding any futher imagery. There was a few places that felt wordy and I noted the places that seemed wordy to me. All in all a good read and sense of what war does to people.

(06-20-2013, 12:44 PM)billy Wrote:  the title makes me ask the question, is the narrator the objector or are we all objectors in some way. i think the opening line says more than words. from images i get news coverage etc. media. the word flicker automatically made me think of the news. i think in places it's wordy. words like [seem] and [sometimes] weaken the statement of the poem. most of my feedback is borderline nit. the cliche parts and the last three lines are more than nits. i did enjoy the poem the images were well structured. i just need to read it a few more times to getter a better insight into it. i will read the piece again

(06-19-2013, 09:44 PM)tectak Wrote:  The images are old familiar friends
that flicker in and out of cluttered minds. a suggestion to make the 1st two lines less cliche would be [of the clutter] to know you meant cluttered minds wouldn't take more than a very small leap by the reader, i'd also suggest [some images] as the start of the opening line. even so, the opening isn't too bad as it is.
We cry sometimes to see the broken limbs,
of bloodied children dusted by their war; as it is, [their war] sounds to ambiguous a suggest if you meant the war of of adults would be [their father's war]
small price to pay for freedom’s curdling call. i like the c's, [small price to pay] is cliche no matter what it's attached to. a suggestion would be [what price for fr....] while [what price] verges on cliche almost as much, it would help out a little bit
Ripped hearts and doll-dead bodies i like the image of this line. i also like the ambiguity of ripped hearts. adult hearts, kids hearts, i like that the reader can pick which way to take the suffering
do not move us anymore. and this line; while very weak in content or image , is actually very strong as a juxtaposition to the previous lines.

It seems one sun above is not the God, why [it seems] why not just [one sun above....] make it a bold statement. personally i think son would work better with what follows but sun does give a sort of pagan feel to use as the failed crow bar
to steal and stir immiscible beliefs i think this is an excellent line. many will pass by thinking they know what it means, a lovely way to use the word.
into that promised meld of humankind.
As if the furnace heat of holy lands
could ever cool enough to firm the melt,
or by attrition reach a setting point.
We pray for peace no more.

What point or purpose in a winning hand
when all the gains are lost to join the game?
What trait within the evolution meme i'm thinking we're talking about natural selection that says kill to survive. or only the strong survive.
can so destroy the child, yet pass through time?
And when we lie alone and in our beds, a big cliche
what answers come as sleep comes drawn by peace?
Not one; we dream away each war. the last three lines feel forced

Tectak
2013

Thanks billy,
Some answers given in other replies but as always you hit true so have reposted edit2. Credit. If people ask questions it is my failing
Best,
tectak

(06-20-2013, 03:22 AM)remotemethod Wrote:  Every time I see such penetrating critique I wonder how you guys can even draw yourself out from the grasp of such beautiful imagery and the emotionally charged subject to begin looking at these words so rationally and decide what is or isn't "poetically correct". (Ah! Clever me.*Pats himself on the back.* )

I loved the poem. And when I look at the critiques, I learn how poetry is more than just the sewing of words together. Thanks guys, this is the best learning experience I have had in years.

By reading lots and lots of poetry.

with the change of a word, the end two line are exponentially better.
the beginning of the 2nd reads much better also.
the 1st line of the poem also benefits for the mall change you made.
it's good you sorted out the bed cliche in the last as well.
the small price line also works better at breaking up a cliche.

a good edit. also good to see you keeping things in the poem you felt should stay. this act alone shows others that suggestions are just that and that the poet has the ultimate choice in a workshop environment in creating their own poem however they wish

You raise a good point, Billy, thanks for it. It is something that I, for one, will bear in mind. I'm still getting to grips with how this forum works, and what is helpful and what isn't, but I am learning and paying attention.

Michael