Enjambment? wtf is it exactly. does it have any nuts and bolts that would better help us fasten it down. I ask because i thought i knew what enjambment was but now i'm not so sure,

I used to use it in a way to break sentences at a comma or other piece of punctuation. always thought that ending a line with and, but, or, yet, for, nor, so, or other contraction was a no no except under a few certain circumstances. ie blah blah, but... etc

i often see it used in a way that breaks a completely natural grammatical sentence in half; adding unneeded stresses as it happens. i sometimes comment on enjambment and maybe I've had it wrong all this time.

After reading some of the free verse and blank verse poetry on this site and others, i'm sort of seeing a universal fault with a lot of it. okay, the universal part may be just what i see

some poetry is so broken up as to make me pause every two words or so.
i think i may have posted a shit load of similar poetry on here myself. but now i see it as wrong accept poetic license but bad enjambment like bad grammar is and should be used. i'm still a believer that normally you shouldn't end a line with and or if but now it's like i've had an epiphany.

there has to be a reasonable reason why we end a line where we do, trying to be a clever bastard just doesn't cut it; though succeeding to be a clever bastard does.

going back to my free and sometimes blank verse. i see now that the enjambment is lacking to say the least.

looking at a lot of your poetry i see the same
"moi" you say, and i reply yes you. +

tell me i'm wrong show me i'm wrong but i see the light most of us are crap at knowing and using enjambment.

replies please, don't google lets get what it is and what we thunk it was out in the open, i do acquiesce that there are some on the site that know but would wager a hefty sum that it's not more than a handful of two. (i'm not one of the handful or two )

(05-30-2013, 12:49 PM)billy Wrote:  Enjambment? wtf is it exactly. does it have any nuts and bolts that would better help us fasten it down. I ask because i thought i knew what enjambment was but now i'm not so sure,

I used to use it in a way to break sentences at a comma or other piece of punctuation. always thought that ending a line with and, but, or, yet, for, nor, so, or other contraction was a no no except under a few certain circumstances. ie blah blah, but... etc

i often see it used in a way that breaks a completely natural grammatical sentence in half; adding unneeded stresses as it happens. i sometimes comment on enjambment and maybe I've had it wrong all this time.

After reading some of the free verse and blank verse poetry on this site and others, i'm sort of seeing a universal fault with a lot of it. okay, the universal part may be just what i see

some poetry is so broken up as to make me pause every two words or so.
i think i may have posted a shit load of similar poetry on here myself. but now i see it as wrong accept poetic license but bad enjambment like bad grammar is and should be used. i'm still a believer that normally you shouldn't end a line with and or if but now it's like i've had an epiphany.

there has to be a reasonable reason why we end a line where we do, trying to be a clever bastard just doesn't cut it; though succeeding to be a clever bastard does.

going back to my free and sometimes blank verse. i see now that the enjambment is lacking to say the least.

looking at a lot of your poetry i see the same
"moi" you say, and i reply yes you. +

tell me i'm wrong show me i'm wrong but i see the light most of us are crap at knowing and using enjambment.

replies please, don't google lets get what it is and what we thunk it was out in the open, i do acquiesce that there are some on the site that know but would wager a hefty sum that it's not more than a handful of two. (i'm not one of the handful or two )

Well you said no google but I had to get merriam webster involved. "the running over of a sentence from one verse or couplet into another so that closely related words fall in different lines " What is the effect of pausing in a line and continuing a thought in the next? I'm sure there is not only one answer to this. My take is that enjambment is what is defined in Merriam Webster and that you can use it to your own ends. I had to analyze To His Coy Mistress for a class and one analysis said that the enjambment made the narrator's appeal more passionate and rushed. The poem is about carpe diem and time and he starts off slowly and the poem gets faster as it expresses and he feels his time for passion on earth is limited. I think if you seperate a thought you will move on to the next line more quickly because your mind wants to assimilate the meaning. Some may use enjambment to simply fit a meter or rhyme. There's my two cents on it.

and before consulting the webster's what did you think?

what i see is someone who had to check up what it actually was, (not having a go at you over it, i did/do the same) just pointing out that if we have to google or check it out then we're sort of out there in limbo over it. and have been. my idea here is to kick the crap out of enjambment to see what actually flies.

Quote:the running over of a sentence from one verse or couplet into another so that closely related words fall in different lines

it says a lot but doesn't really help. where do we cut the line if we have more than two closely related words? and does it only count if we're going from one verse/stanza/couplet etc, to another? can't we use enjambment mid stanza?

so hands up if you haven't a clue. only thinking we know something isn't enough, or is it? personally knowing and thinking i know are two completely states of being i'm still unsure about the mechanics of enjambement

Yep this is one of those things that has got me thinking and the conclusion is that like you I had thought i knew what the rules of use were for enjambement but having thought about it I'm not so sure.

(Conceeding that i have just read webster's definition...although this did not move me forward much as it seemed wishy washy) I had thought that enjambement was used to add an extra pause for breath additional to a comma, but that the main use was to add an extra meaning or subtle shift in meaning to either or both lines from or onto which the sentance runs over. (and that this would be picked up in the read because of the resulting extra pause).

so in my last edit on my current poem i used it like this:
Always on the make, the penniless, political student hack, discipled in gold top
greed, from low fat skimming they spread their whey. Spinning special
words, of the finest cut and craft, they ask: Ask…what can my country do for me?
A well oiled one point seven million speech, about nothing, to no one in particular.

I now feel that this type of use is heavy handed and makes for an awkward read at times so as i said I'm thinking a little help might be required to get any real finesse.

Perhaps a section on this in the exercise threads would be a benifit to some?

I'm on a business trip right now, but when I get home I'll go through my books and find some good examples. It is as you say a finesse thing, something better seen done than explained. Enjambment actually tends to increase the pace of a poem not decrease it. It's the opposite of the end stopped line. It's the layering of meaning that makes it an interesting tool. When it's done well it adds a great deal to a poem when it's done poorly it comes off as gimmicky or overly cute. When I think of my own poetry, enjambment can be heavy handed in early drafts, and smoothed out in revision.

I read someone recently who does it very well. I'll post some of her poems.

Because I can't be bothered writing this all out again...

(06-04-2011, 09:33 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Many formalist “purists” dislike enjambment, fearing that it threatens their end-stopping rhymes and destroys the natural “flow” of a poem. Let’s discuss that idea.

Enjambment or "running-on" means that the end of a line doesn't necessarily coincide with a natural break in syntax, even though the line itself may fit into a metric scheme eg.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;

-- Shelley, "Ozymandias"

When we read a poem in a set meter like iambic pentameter, it's expected that the lines will be end-stopped ie. each line will contain a complete phrase and be end-punctuated. Enjambment -- while still following the rules of meter and rhyme -- alters the way a line is read and has an effect on speed and tension. Often enjambment produces a caesura (hard pause or break) in lines which changes the pace at which a line is read. Enjambment creates a contrast between meter and syntax, which we expect to be "in synch", so it will often make us pause and possibly re-read a section. In this way, enjambment actually changes the direction in which a poem is read. We are thrown off balance, consciously or otherwise. Enjambment can add dimension to the meaning of a poem and creates ambiguity -- as you read it, you're expecting an end-stopped line and you read the line as if it has stopped, so discovering that the phrase is incomplete requires an adjustment. Enjambment also helps to soften rhyme and make a poem sound more like natural speech (as do caesuras).

Milton's sonnets are a brilliant example, like this one:

When I consider how my light is spent (sonnet XIX)

When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide;
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask: but Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best: his state
Is kingly: Thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

(Admittedly, Milton was a lot better at using enjambment than he was in coming up with creative titles for his poems.)

So yes, the accusations are true: enjambment DOES interrupt the flow of a poem for the reader. It's supposed to -- and it's just as important to consider the effects of enjambment in a piece of free verse as formal poetry. Are you breaking your lines where you do for a reason, or is it just arbitrary? The poetic line is a powerful tool, the strongest unit you have in your poem -- don't waste it.

To summarise, it's like any other tool in poetry: you need to know why you're using it. Line breaks where-the-hell-ever don't make a poem more poetic, they make it more obvious that you don't know what you're doing.

---

(05-30-2013, 05:45 PM)cidermaid Wrote:  Yep this is one of those things that has got me thinking and the conclusion is that like you I had thought i knew what the rules of use were for enjambement but having thought about it I'm not so sure.

(Conceeding that i have just read webster's definition...although this did not move me forward much as it seemed wishy washy) I had thought that enjambement was used to add an extra pause for breath additional to a comma, but that the main use was to add an extra meaning or subtle shift in meaning to either or both lines from or onto which the sentance runs over. (and that this would be picked up in the read because of the resulting extra pause).

so in my last edit on my current poem i used it like this:
Always on the make, the penniless, political student hack, discipled in gold top
greed, from low fat skimming they spread their whey. Spinning special
words, of the finest cut and craft, they ask: Ask…what can my country do for me?
A well oiled one point seven million speech, about nothing, to no one in particular.

I now feel that this type of use is heavy handed and makes for an awkward read at times so as i said I'm thinking a little help might be required to get any real finesse.

Perhaps a section on this in the exercise threads would be a benifit to some?

AJ, it always pays to remember that the reader privileges the first and last words of a line -- so always make them count. That doesn't mean you can't break on a conjunction or preposition -- it means that if you do, it must be for a reason. Breaking on "but" or even "and" can create a sense of anticipation; overuse anticipation and it becomes pointlessly melodramatic. Because I'm a meter freak, I always try to make line breaks where it suits the rhythm as well. Short lines = fast pace, long lines = more time for thought.

Having just finished a poetry exam, we were simply taught that enjambment is the continuation of one sentence into another line. I suppose that in itself, that is it. It's a technique like any other.

It's a bit like make up really - I could put some £1 lipstick on, and I'd be using make up. It might look terrible but I'm still technically using it. I could also spend £50 on professional make up that enhances my looks. It's all perspective. I think enjambment is pretty similar - if enjambment is just the continuation of a sentence over more than one line at it's basic, then it's very difficult to do wrong. However, the effect could be negative, or it could enhance the poem. Like enjambment, only a handful of people know how to use make up to enhance the overall effect...

I want to see what Katy
did when she, like a turtle,
dove into her shell.
Game scuttles under,
lies in safety.

Catch the sun's fire;
fly into a storm's craw;
fish with hooks so golden,
rods that snap.

Dragonflies are unlikely fliers, double wings
span my palm in iridescent flash,
point to danger.

Us. We are the dragons,
slayers, and we hide,
bound by what Katy's seeing.

-Julie Carter

Four Star

The bottom of a skillet tastes the fire,
men scrape and stir, push shoulders into meaty
ochre stew. "You there! Stop six-blockin' and hand
some fresh irons and plates!" The hunt for
wren eggs and butterscotch begins. Bless the French,
toast the Italians, good eats for us rapscallions.

-less impressive (but old anyway)

(05-30-2013, 09:36 PM)Todd Wrote:  I'm on a business trip right now, but when I get home I'll go through my books and find some good examples. It is as you say a finesse thing, something better seen done than explained. Enjambment actually tends to increase the pace of a poem not decrease it. It's the opposite of the end stopped line. It's the layering of meaning that makes it an interesting tool. When it's done well it adds a great deal to a poem when it's done poorly it comes off as gimmicky or overly cute. When I think of my own poetry, enjambment can be heavy handed in early drafts, and smoothed out in revision.

I read someone recently who does it very well. I'll post some of her poems.

and i think that's what my epiphany was about. a line is written with the intent of having it's meaning changed with the first word of the next line. it's not merely a line break, there has to be a discernible change in
direction an ability to mislead.

haiku (which i know everyone loves) incorporates enjambment to some extent by using the cut. though its probably not the same thing but see it helps

---

(05-31-2013, 04:21 AM)Leanne Wrote:  So yes, the accusations are true: enjambment DOES interrupt the flow of a poem for the reader. It's supposed to -- and it's just as important to consider the effects of enjambment in a piece of free verse as formal poetry. Are you breaking your lines where you do for a reason, or is it just arbitrary? The poetic line is a powerful tool, the strongest unit you have in your poem -- don't waste it.




To summarise, it's like any other tool in poetry: you need to know why you're using it. Line breaks where-the-hell-ever don't make a poem more poetic, they make it more obvious that you don't know what you're doing.

when i said i hate seeing a line end with a conjunction it's probably because i've yet to see it done well, though i have seen it done in some good poetry. (it's a fuckin paradox i tell you) i understand like many things, it only works if you do it properly (well)

question: i did ask before in a rely to someone else. can it only be employed between stanza or verse as sated by a member referencing websters? personally i think that would be absolutely stupid.

---

(05-31-2013, 06:06 AM)UnicornRainbowCake Wrote:  Having just finished a poetry exam, we were simply taught that enjambment is the continuation of one sentence into another line. I suppose that in itself, that is it. It's a technique like any other.

It's a bit like make up really - I could put some £1 lipstick on, and I'd be using make up. It might look terrible but I'm still technically using it. I could also spend £50 on professional make up that enhances my looks. It's all perspective. I think enjambment is pretty similar - if enjambment is just the continuation of a sentence over more than one line at it's basic, then it's very difficult to do wrong. However, the effect could be negative, or it could enhance the poem. Like enjambment, only a handful of people know how to use make up to enhance the overall effect...

while it's not a lie it does sound like only half the story of what it is.

an analogy would be your lipstick;

i show you a stick of lipstick and say is this make up, you'd say yes, lipstick is make up that goes on your lips. there's no mention of lip gloss or how you apply the lipstick, there's no info on what colours best for which skin tone etc. basically i'd say the teacher gave a cookie cutter that doesn't cut the cookie.

---

(05-31-2013, 06:40 AM)milo Wrote:  The bottom of a skillet tastes the fire,
men scrape and stir, push shoulders into meaty
ochre stew. "You there! Stop six-blockin' and hand
some fresh irons and plates!" The hunt for
wren eggs and butterscotch begins. Bless the French,
toast the Italians, good eats for us rapscallions.

-less impressive (but old anyway)

that 'for' on the 5th does nothing for me and thats what i mean. i see ( and i know i could be wrong) that as trying to be clever.
while i like the poem that's the of 2 parts that don't work for me. meaty seems to be another, so while i see enjambment, i don't see good enjambment. handsome fresh is much better though it enjambs by breaking one word...unless they just got lucky and did it without realising

(05-31-2013, 07:15 AM)billy Wrote:  

(05-30-2013, 09:36 PM)Todd Wrote:  I'm on a business trip right now, but when I get home I'll go through my books and find some good examples. It is as you say a finesse thing, something better seen done than explained. Enjambment actually tends to increase the pace of a poem not decrease it. It's the opposite of the end stopped line. It's the layering of meaning that makes it an interesting tool. When it's done well it adds a great deal to a poem when it's done poorly it comes off as gimmicky or overly cute. When I think of my own poetry, enjambment can be heavy handed in early drafts, and smoothed out in revision.

I read someone recently who does it very well. I'll post some of her poems.

and i think that's what my epiphany was about. a line is written with the intent of having it's meaning changed with the first word of the next line. it's not merely a line break, there has to be a discernible change in
direction an ability to mislead.

haiku (which i know everyone loves) incorporates enjambment to some extent by using the cut. though its probably not the same thing but see it helps

---

(05-31-2013, 04:21 AM)Leanne Wrote:  So yes, the accusations are true: enjambment DOES interrupt the flow of a poem for the reader. It's supposed to -- and it's just as important to consider the effects of enjambment in a piece of free verse as formal poetry. Are you breaking your lines where you do for a reason, or is it just arbitrary? The poetic line is a powerful tool, the strongest unit you have in your poem -- don't waste it.




To summarise, it's like any other tool in poetry: you need to know why you're using it. Line breaks where-the-hell-ever don't make a poem more poetic, they make it more obvious that you don't know what you're doing.

when i said i hate seeing a line end with a conjunction it's probably because i've yet to see it done well, though i have seen it done in some good poetry. (it's a fuckin paradox i tell you) i understand like many things, it only works if you do it properly (well)

question: i did ask before in a rely to someone else. can it only be employed between stanza or verse as sated by a member referencing websters? personally i think that would be absolutely stupid.

---

(05-31-2013, 06:06 AM)UnicornRainbowCake Wrote:  Having just finished a poetry exam, we were simply taught that enjambment is the continuation of one sentence into another line. I suppose that in itself, that is it. It's a technique like any other.

It's a bit like make up really - I could put some £1 lipstick on, and I'd be using make up. It might look terrible but I'm still technically using it. I could also spend £50 on professional make up that enhances my looks. It's all perspective. I think enjambment is pretty similar - if enjambment is just the continuation of a sentence over more than one line at it's basic, then it's very difficult to do wrong. However, the effect could be negative, or it could enhance the poem. Like enjambment, only a handful of people know how to use make up to enhance the overall effect...

while it's not a lie it does sound like only half the story of what it is.

an analogy would be your lipstick;

i show you a stick of lipstick and say is this make up, you'd say yes, lipstick is make up that goes on your lips. there's no mention of lip gloss or how you apply the lipstick, there's no info on what colours best for which skin tone etc. basically i'd say the teacher gave a cookie cutter that doesn't cut the cookie.

---

(05-31-2013, 06:40 AM)milo Wrote:  The bottom of a skillet tastes the fire,
men scrape and stir, push shoulders into meaty
ochre stew. "You there! Stop six-blockin' and hand
some fresh irons and plates!" The hunt for
wren eggs and butterscotch begins. Bless the French,
toast the Italians, good eats for us rapscallions.

-less impressive (but old anyway)

that 'for' on the 5th does nothing for me and thats what i mean. i see ( and i know i could be wrong) that as trying to be clever.
while i like the poem that's the of 2 parts that don't work for me. meaty seems to be another, so while i see enjambment, i don't see good enjambment. handsome fresh is much better though it enjambs by breaking one word...unless they just got lucky and did it without realising

every line is enjambed to create a different word that is supposed to 'link' concepts - firemen, mediocre, handsome, foreign, French toast. The first does the same thing, but better

I'm speaking tennuosly here because I am still learning but I think Enjambment can be used to make the speaker seem like they are talking extemperaneously as if they have to pause to finish their thought, but I suppose the length of the pause is dependent on the punctuation or lack of punctuation. This is really just conjecture on my part though.

(05-31-2013, 08:31 AM)Brownlie Wrote:  I'm speaking tennuosly here because I am still learning but I think Enjambment can be used to make the speaker seem like they are talking extemperaneously as if they have to pause to finish their thought, but I suppose the length of the pause is dependent on the punctuation or lack of punctuation. This is really just conjecture on my part though.

hi brownlie, i think most apart from an odd few are in the same boat as you. i know i am.

i with you on the 2nd part.
don't we have punctuation to serve the purposes you mention, or do we...

i was hoping for some of the newer guys to hop on board as to what they think enjambment is. even if it's just to say i haven't got a clue what it is.

Quote:can it only be employed between stanza or verse as sated by a member referencing websters? personally i think that would be absolutely stupid.

No, it definitely is not limited to between stanzas. Shockingly, Websters does not have a sufficient definition.

Some forms require or encourage enjambment between stanzas, such as the Sapphic ode. Some practically forbid it, like the ghazal. These restrictions are in place because the form is designed for a particular purpose and the entire structure goes toward fulfilling that purpose. In free verse, where there are no rules about structure, it is even more important to learn what the purpose of the line break is, not just for enjambment. In free verse, line break and enjambment come to mean pretty much the same thing and it's rather odd to hear people saying that they don't get it, when they're doing it all the time.

Enjambment isn't mysterious. It's used to create tension between what the reader expects and what the poem delivers. This tension encourages the reader to think, just as using interesting and unique metaphors rather than cliches forbids reader complacency.

(05-31-2013, 06:40 AM)milo Wrote:  The bottom of a skillet tastes the fire,
men scrape and stir, push shoulders into meaty
ochre stew. "You there! Stop six-blockin' and hand
some fresh irons and plates!" The hunt for
wren eggs and butterscotch begins. Bless the French,
toast the Italians, good eats for us rapscallions.


every line is enjambed to create a different word that is supposed to 'link' concepts - firemen, mediocre, handsome, foreign, French toast. The first does the same thing, but better

now i'm getting somewhere; rhyme they say is best unnoticed. i never noticed the enjambment of the first line. i did with meaty in the next. i also never noticed it in the penultimate linen. i did however use a different pause than if they were firemen/handsome/french toast etc.

thanks for the follow up

well, it was originally done as an exercise, so the poems themselves have no artistic merit but your enjambment thread made me remember it and, lazy as I am, instead of writing a good one, I googled this old one and found it.

(05-31-2013, 03:22 PM)Leanne Wrote:  No, it definitely is not limited to between stanzas. Shockingly, Websters does not have a sufficient definition.

which is what i surmised. i'm actually seeing something i hadn't really known. when i said "good enjambment" in a reply to a poem, i wasn't always correct. now however i'll be more able to comment on good or bad (for me) enjambment.

Quote:Some forms require or encourage enjambment between stanzas, such as the Sapphic ode. Some practically forbid it, like the ghazal. These restrictions are in place because the form is designed for a particular purpose and the entire structure goes toward fulfilling that purpose. In free verse, where there are no rules about structure, it is even more important to learn what the purpose of the line break is, not just for enjambment. In free verse, line break and enjambment come to mean pretty much the same thing and it's rather odd to hear people saying that they don't get it, when they're doing it all the time.

i usually do the line break where punctuation should be; a comma, or period etc. but while that seems okay, it needs a little more attention to detail for it to good.

Quote:Enjambment isn't mysterious. It's used to create tension between what the reader expects and what the poem delivers. This tension encourages the reader to think, just as using interesting and unique metaphors rather than cliches forbids reader complacency.

now i see it it's easy to understand but till now it wasn't as easy as you say honest. this thread really has opened my eyes to it.

AJ suggested something to do with it in a poetry practice thread. is anyone up for setting some easyish parameters?

thanks for the elucidation guys.

(05-31-2013, 03:22 PM)Leanne Wrote:  

Quote:can it only be employed between stanza or verse as sated by a member referencing websters? personally i think that would be absolutely stupid.

No, it definitely is not limited to between stanzas. Shockingly, Websters does not have a sufficient definition.

Some forms require or encourage enjambment between stanzas, such as the Sapphic ode. Some practically forbid it, like the ghazal. These restrictions are in place because the form is designed for a particular purpose and the entire structure goes toward fulfilling that purpose. In free verse, where there are no rules about structure, it is even more important to learn what the purpose of the line break is, not just for enjambment. In free verse, line break and enjambment come to mean pretty much the same thing and it's rather odd to hear people saying that they don't get it, when they're doing it all the time.

Enjambment isn't mysterious. It's used to create tension between what the reader expects and what the poem delivers. This tension encourages the reader to think, just as using interesting and unique metaphors rather than cliches forbids reader complacency.

It might even cum as so much as naturally: the end-jump-minds.

---

Leanne: "Shockingly, Websters does not have a sufficient definition." sarcarsism right?


Lemme put it into the sewers. take your time. Websters talks you poetry? No. Not really, I hope.

"Enjambment isn't mysterious. It's used to create tension between what the reader expects and what the poem delivers. This tension encourages the reader to think, just as using interesting and unique metaphors rather than cliches forbids reader complacency."
I am educated mostly in the spirit of European poetic tradition in which "enjambment" is widespread. (Though enjambment is a concept introduced by the French) Rules how many times and how to use this poetic technique not firmly established. I know the poems that use twelve stishen run-on line and note the fact that this is a favorite technique of Anna Akhmatova.Ultimately, the reader requires more effort (co-authored) in reading, which I think led to the gradual less use of run-on line against the prevailing trend repaired "subject" poetry.

(05-31-2013, 09:56 PM)bogpan Wrote:  (Though enjambment is a concept introduced by the French)

Well actually, it's been used as a deliberate technique for more than 3000 years -- the French can't just stick a new name on it and claim it as their own. Honestly, the Gaul of some people!

I enjambed once, and it hurt like hell. I went to the doc and she x-rayed it:

"Yep," she said. "You've got a syntactical break, and an adpositional one at that."

... And then there's the time when I fell on my assonance.
(And yes, it was every bit as bad as it sounds.)