I am not permitted to delete, it seems

This is where we might run into trouble. You see, what might seem a lack of courtesy to some might simply be a matter of writing down thoughts swiftly and expecting that the poster -- especially in Serious Critique -- can see past the lack of pleasantries and straight to the business of commentary/critique. Additionally, I have witnessed many incidents in which British/European/Australian humour, especially irony, has been misconstrued by others who are unfamiliar.

Rudeness is sometimes a matter of cultural boundaries that aren't shared by everyone on the site. I think it's wise if everyone simply accepts that any critique is given in the spirit of a workshop -- that is, freely and with the intent to help improve poetry. Whether it's given with sugar coating or delivered in an especially dickish manner, it's the quality of the feedback that is important, not its package.

I am not suggesting people abandon courtesy -- just pointing out that it's not often we see anyone being deliberately nasty here, and those people WILL be warned. Others are generally just being... well, themselves.

---

Further to that, there are guidelines posted on what is/isn't acceptable in a critique in About Feedback, the forum rules and in each individual forum.

(03-21-2013, 04:52 AM)Leanne Wrote:  This is where we might run into trouble. You see, what might seem a lack of courtesy to some might simply be a matter of writing down thoughts swiftly and expecting that the poster -- especially in Serious Critique -- can see past the lack of pleasantries and straight to the business of commentary/critique. Additionally, I have witnessed many incidents in which British/European/Australian humour, especially irony, has been misconstrued by others who are unfamiliar.

Rudeness is sometimes a matter of cultural boundaries that aren't shared by everyone on the site. I think it's wise if everyone simply accepts that any critique is given in the spirit of a workshop -- that is, freely and with the intent to help improve poetry. Whether it's given with sugar coating or delivered in an especially dickish manner, it's the quality of the feedback that is important, not its package.

I am not suggesting people abandon courtesy -- just pointing out that it's not often we see anyone being deliberately nasty here, and those people WILL be warned. Others are generally just being... well, themselves.

---

Further to that, there are guidelines posted on what is/isn't acceptable in a critique in About Feedback, the forum rules and in each individual forum.

These poets write but why so rude?
(I know, they will say brevity)
but words aren't half as scarce as food!
These poets write, but why? So rude
condensing every line, they brood,
disguise what's terse as levity.
These poets! Write. But Why? So rude
"I know," They will say. Brevity.

milo

Well this was revealing. Revealing and enlightening.
I come away from this discussion with more understanding of just how fragile and flawed human nature can be. Mine included. MOSTLY mine LOLOL
It all seems to come down to a decision...swim upstream or float downstream.
Life is short...gonna float.

if anyone is overly rude, report them to a mod, if it's deemed the feedback is just feedback they'll say so. if they see it as rude, they'll do something about it. we have rules up the kazoo about being honest and fair. we don't allow attacks on poets. what we do ask in serious is straight talking feedback about the poem. if we think a poem is shit, we certainly won't say we thing it's shit, we should, if we're honest and trying to help the poet improve the poem, say

the poem is bad and here's why. you're rhyme is shot to shit, if you use rhyme try and make it perfect. a meter might help out with the flow though i suspect you need to remove the 5 or 7 lines of yoda-speak, the syntax makes no sense, the piece is full of cliche, (i'll offer a few suggestions if it's cliche-riddled.) there are 14 lines in a sonnet not 12.
lines so and so are keepers, they create a vision in the readers mind and are solid images, try and emulate the quality of these lines else where, mention love 9 times is about 7 times to many. words like hope, hate, emotions, pain, fear are bogging the poem down, describe us about such things without simply stating a word, if i had to give feedback like that, i'd probably just move the piece to novice where such in-depth feedback wouldn't be given (in the hope of not crushing the poets feelings in one blow, and allowing other poets to give feedback on poems that are better suited to the serious forum.

milo's refrain would get none of the above feedback were it in serious,

off me he'd get feedback like: Really solid form, the refrain works really well and it doesn't feel forced.
the choice of form carries the satire with better grace than many others would the one nit for me are the ellipsis, they might work if you Cordon sanitaire that line, my choice would be to lose them and make the line different some other way if you really want to.

(03-22-2013, 12:06 AM)billy Wrote:  if anyone is overly rude, report them to a mod, if it's deemed the feedback is just feedback they'll say so. if they see it as rude, they'll do something about it. we have rules up the kazoo about being honest and fair. we don't allow attacks on poets. what we do ask in serious is straight talking feedback about the poem. if we think a poem is shit, we certainly won't say we thing it's shit, we should, if we're honest and trying to help the poet improve the poem, say

the poem is bad and here's why. you're rhyme is shot to shit, if you use rhyme try and make it perfect. a meter might help out with the flow though i suspect you need to remove the 5 or 7 lines of yoda-speak, the syntax makes no sense, the piece is full of cliche, (i'll offer a few suggestions if it's cliche-riddled.) there are 14 lines in a sonnet not 12.
lines so and so are keepers, they create a vision in the readers mind and are solid images, try and emulate the quality of these lines else where, mention love 9 times is about 7 times to many. words like hope, hate, emotions, pain, fear are bogging the poem down, describe us about such things without simply stating a word, if i had to give feedback like that, i'd probably just move the piece to novice where such in-depth feedback wouldn't be given (in the hope of not crushing the poets feelings in one blow, and allowing other poets to give feedback on poems that are better suited to the serious forum.

milo's refrain would get none of the above feedback were it in serious,

off me he'd get feedback like: Really solid form, the refrain works really well and it doesn't feel forced.
the choice of form carries the satire with better grace than many others would the one nit for me are the ellipsis, they might work if you Cordon sanitaire that line, my choice would be to lose them and make the line different some other way if you really want to.

hey! I didn't use ellipsis!

milo

Oh Gawd, milo used ellipses!

Just kidding milo

Beware the wild ellipsis,
it stalks about, disguised,
but billy spots the critter well
before you've realised...

fuck off, i said parentheses

what can say you mockers...

i'm recovering from a trip from the other side of the world

There is this quote, I almost remember verbatim, as it served me well when I was studying for my PhD in philosophy:
“When someone asks ‘what’s the use of philosophy?’ the reply must be aggressive, since the question tries to be ironic and caustic. Philosophy does not serve the State or the Church, who have other concerns. It serves no established power. The use of philosophy is to sadden. A philosophy that saddens no one, that annoys no one, is not philosophy. It is useful for harming stupidity, for turning stupidity into something shameful. Is there any discipline apart from philosophy that sets out to criticise all mystification, whatever their source and aim, to expose all the fictions without which reactive forces would not prevail?…Finally, turning thought into something aggressive, active and affirmative. Creating free men, that is to say men who do not confuse the aims of culture with the benefit of the State, morality or religion….Who has an interest in all this but philosophy? Philosophy is at its most positive as a critique, as an enterprise of demystification.”
And if that isn’t the most powerful rejection of common decency when it comes to critique, let ones poems live in the eternal squalor of mediocrity… because critique only helps through harm.

(03-22-2013, 06:18 AM)milo Wrote:  

(03-22-2013, 12:06 AM)billy Wrote:  if anyone is overly rude, report them to a mod, if it's deemed the feedback is just feedback they'll say so. if they see it as rude, they'll do something about it. we have rules up the kazoo about being honest and fair. we don't allow attacks on poets. what we do ask in serious is straight talking feedback about the poem. if we think a poem is shit, we certainly won't say we thing it's shit, we should, if we're honest and trying to help the poet improve the poem, say

the poem is bad and here's why. you're rhyme is shot to shit, if you use rhyme try and make it perfect. a meter might help out with the flow though i suspect you need to remove the 5 or 7 lines of yoda-speak, the syntax makes no sense, the piece is full of cliche, (i'll offer a few suggestions if it's cliche-riddled.) there are 14 lines in a sonnet not 12.
lines so and so are keepers, they create a vision in the readers mind and are solid images, try and emulate the quality of these lines else where, mention love 9 times is about 7 times to many. words like hope, hate, emotions, pain, fear are bogging the poem down, describe us about such things without simply stating a word, if i had to give feedback like that, i'd probably just move the piece to novice where such in-depth feedback wouldn't be given (in the hope of not crushing the poets feelings in one blow, and allowing other poets to give feedback on poems that are better suited to the serious forum.

milo's refrain would get none of the above feedback were it in serious,

off me he'd get feedback like: Really solid form, the refrain works really well and it doesn't feel forced.
the choice of form carries the satire with better grace than many others would the one nit for me are the ellipsis, they might work if you Cordon sanitaire that line, my choice would be to lose them and make the line different some other way if you really want to.

hey! I didn't use ellipsis!

milo

you could have pretended you did

(03-22-2013, 07:51 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  There is this quote, I almost remember verbatim, as it served me well when I was studying for my PhD in philosophy:
“When someone asks ‘what’s the use of philosophy?’ the reply must be aggressive, since the question tries to be ironic and caustic. Philosophy does not serve the State or the Church, who have other concerns. It serves no established power. The use of philosophy is to sadden. A philosophy that saddens no one, that annoys no one, is not philosophy. It is useful for harming stupidity, for turning stupidity into something shameful. Is there any discipline apart from philosophy that sets out to criticise all mystification, whatever their source and aim, to expose all the fictions without which reactive forces would not prevail?…Finally, turning thought into something aggressive, active and affirmative. Creating free men, that is to say men who do not confuse the aims of culture with the benefit of the State, morality or religion….Who has an interest in all this but philosophy? Philosophy is at its most positive as a critique, as an enterprise of demystification.”
And if that isn’t the most powerful rejection of common decency when it comes to critique, let ones poems live in the eternal squalor of mediocrity… because critique only helps through harm.

Amen, or awomen, or a potato salad.

Or, the muscle must first be torn in order that it may make itself stronger.

(03-22-2013, 07:52 AM)billy Wrote:  

(03-22-2013, 06:18 AM)milo Wrote:  

(03-22-2013, 12:06 AM)billy Wrote:  if anyone is overly rude, report them to a mod, if it's deemed the feedback is just feedback they'll say so. if they see it as rude, they'll do something about it. we have rules up the kazoo about being honest and fair. we don't allow attacks on poets. what we do ask in serious is straight talking feedback about the poem. if we think a poem is shit, we certainly won't say we thing it's shit, we should, if we're honest and trying to help the poet improve the poem, say

the poem is bad and here's why. you're rhyme is shot to shit, if you use rhyme try and make it perfect. a meter might help out with the flow though i suspect you need to remove the 5 or 7 lines of yoda-speak, the syntax makes no sense, the piece is full of cliche, (i'll offer a few suggestions if it's cliche-riddled.) there are 14 lines in a sonnet not 12.
lines so and so are keepers, they create a vision in the readers mind and are solid images, try and emulate the quality of these lines else where, mention love 9 times is about 7 times to many. words like hope, hate, emotions, pain, fear are bogging the poem down, describe us about such things without simply stating a word, if i had to give feedback like that, i'd probably just move the piece to novice where such in-depth feedback wouldn't be given (in the hope of not crushing the poets feelings in one blow, and allowing other poets to give feedback on poems that are better suited to the serious forum.

milo's refrain would get none of the above feedback were it in serious,

off me he'd get feedback like: Really solid form, the refrain works really well and it doesn't feel forced.
the choice of form carries the satire with better grace than many others would the one nit for me are the ellipsis, they might work if you Cordon sanitaire that line, my choice would be to lose them and make the line different some other way if you really want to.

hey! I didn't use ellipsis!

milo

you could have pretended you did

hey, I will pretend a lot of things, but ellipses? I had a problem once, but I am over it I tell you. i haven't used in years . . .

milo

(03-22-2013, 07:57 AM)milo Wrote:  hey, I will pretend a lot of things, but ellipses? I had a problem once, but I am over it I tell you. i haven't used in years . . .

milo

I'm prepared to bet that if you did, it would have been in a triolet somewhere.

it would have been a common courtesy and fitted in with the thread if you had, now milo, all you do is mock with your insensitive dots......

back on track, isn't it a common courtesy to be honest?

Not always, I suppose -- or at least, it's often selective honesty. I mean, your arse really does look huge in those pants but at least this time I can't see your crack, so I'm going to focus on that positive.

---

I'm probably not helping...

(03-21-2013, 12:00 PM)milo Wrote:  

(03-21-2013, 04:52 AM)Leanne Wrote:  This is where we might run into trouble. You see, what might seem a lack of courtesy to some might simply be a matter of writing down thoughts swiftly and expecting that the poster -- especially in Serious Critique -- can see past the lack of pleasantries and straight to the business of commentary/critique. Additionally, I have witnessed many incidents in which British/European/Australian humour, especially irony, has been misconstrued by others who are unfamiliar.

Rudeness is sometimes a matter of cultural boundaries that aren't shared by everyone on the site. I think it's wise if everyone simply accepts that any critique is given in the spirit of a workshop -- that is, freely and with the intent to help improve poetry. Whether it's given with sugar coating or delivered in an especially dickish manner, it's the quality of the feedback that is important, not its package.

I am not suggesting people abandon courtesy -- just pointing out that it's not often we see anyone being deliberately nasty here, and those people WILL be warned. Others are generally just being... well, themselves.

---

Further to that, there are guidelines posted on what is/isn't acceptable in a critique in About Feedback, the forum rules and in each individual forum.

These poets write but why so rude?
(I know, they will say brevity)
but words aren't half as scarce as food!
These poets write, but why? So rude
condensing every line, they brood,
disguise what's terse as levity.
These poets! Write. But Why? So rude
"I know," They will say. Brevity.

milo

Punctuation; seems unusually, erratic.
Best tectak.

---

(03-21-2013, 04:52 AM)Leanne Wrote:  This is where we might run into trouble. You see, what might seem a lack of courtesy to some might simply be a matter of writing down thoughts swiftly and expecting that the poster -- especially in Serious Critique -- can see past the lack of pleasantries and straight to the business of commentary/critique. Additionally, I have witnessed many incidents in which British/European/Australian humour, especially irony, has been misconstrued by others who are unfamiliar.

Rudeness is sometimes a matter of cultural boundaries that aren't shared by everyone on the site. I think it's wise if everyone simply accepts that any critique is given in the spirit of a workshop -- that is, freely and with the intent to help improve poetry. Whether it's given with sugar coating or delivered in an especially dickish manner, it's the quality of the feedback that is important, not its package.

I am not suggesting people abandon courtesy -- just pointing out that it's not often we see anyone being deliberately nasty here, and those people WILL be warned. Others are generally just being... well, themselves. See PM. tectak

---

Further to that, there are guidelines posted on what is/isn't acceptable in a critique in About Feedback, the forum rules and in each individual forum.

(03-22-2013, 08:08 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Not always, I suppose -- or at least, it's often selective honesty. I mean, your arse really does look huge in those pants but at least this time I can't see your crack, so I'm going to focus on that positive.

---

I'm probably not helping...

"poets" should deal in truth. Common and courtesy are both luxuries they can't afford.

You are a poet? Take that common courtesy and ram it so far up your ass you grip entrails, drag them stretching and snapping and smear rorschach spots on your clean white studio walls. Then grab random street people and drag them in, press their faces so close they are inhaling flecks of feces and blood and demand they tell you if they see a duck or 2 fighting birds or a church on the hill then scream at them that they are wrong and toss them out without even offering bus fair or a nice freshly baked scone or even inviting them back for tea sometime.

yah.

poets.

milo

Community is nice but I want to write better.

Cruelty is pointless, but telling me why you hate something I've written is a gift.

And nothing says, I must agree with everything.

Just my take on it all.

(03-22-2013, 08:44 AM)milo Wrote:  

(03-22-2013, 08:08 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Not always, I suppose -- or at least, it's often selective honesty. I mean, your arse really does look huge in those pants but at least this time I can't see your crack, so I'm going to focus on that positive.

---

I'm probably not helping...

"poets" should deal in truth. Common and courtesy are both luxuries they can't afford.

You are a poet? Take that common courtesy and ram it so far up your ass you grip entrails, drag them stretching and snapping and smear rorschach spots on your clean white studio walls. Then grab random street people and drag them in, press their faces so close they are inhaling flecks of feces and blood and demand they tell you if they see a duck or 2 fighting birds or a church on the hill then scream at them that they are wrong and toss them out without even offering bus fair or a nice freshly baked scone or even inviting them back for tea sometime.

yah.

poets.

milo

I say, old bean, bit of a funk, what?
tectak