i think you pretty much just hit it on the head right there when you said your perception. to me that is the only thing that matters in this world. because perception is very much reality and we all live in our own world, that's why the saying "its my world you just live in it" is funny but true at the same time. you are the summation of experiences from your past and emotions that you really have no control over. your thoughts and feelings can be congruent at times with other people but for the most part they are unique to you since no two people shared the same experiences and felt the same emotions through those experiences. every free thinker ie philosophers and poets at one point were considered "insane" by the established norm because they were attempting to break the mold. to me your feelings are completely normal, i am young as well and am still trying to "find" myself but to me in searching we have already found ourselves for we are the examiners, we are the ones who say "no you must explain that to me". socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living. to me you have already found yourself you probably just need a little bit of guidance but i would recommend to you any book by friedrich nietzsche especially thus spoke zarathustra or beyond good and evil.

Bah, no one has found himself until he's dead. Until then we are still searching.

if the search is futile then why attempt it?

When did I say it was futile? Would you stop searching for something because you wouldn't find it in the first five minutes?

in the first five minutes is not until death... until death seems like a long time to me. and yes a lot of people including myself would stop searching and move on to the next thing. if you are speaking about the fact that death is a certainty and when we find it we find our natural purpose then i guess that would be considering finding yourself when you die. but in my opinion(which doesnt mean shit to the world) you can very much "find" yourself by examining your actions whether they be good or bad, and finding the root of it, but i guess it takes an objective mind to do that and since most people see themselves as perfection i guess it would be hard to examine their own actions

(01-21-2013, 01:57 PM)rowens Wrote:  They're making me go out of this house now. I don't have Internet in the room where I stay. So tomorrow, I hope you'll see that I'm not being sarcastic at all. That I've had many fights about mental health with doctors and family. And I truly appreciate the things you say.

It is all labels Rowens. I don't think it is very hard to make someone believe there is 100 things wrong with them.

This is just a theory:

If the highest virtue in our society is altruism - selflessness and taking care of others -then people being sick or in need become the most important things. How else can we be virtuous? So a system has been put in place that makes people believe an ache or a pain might be cancer.. (I'm exaggerating, not everyone is a hypochondriac but I hope you get my point) - when it comes to mental illness if we don't fit the "mold" something is wrong with us, right? Same goes for education but that is a whole other topic.
We are multifaceted creatures yet we are portrayed on television (for example) more often than not as one dimensional beings - it is alienating from a young age and I feel it makes us feel like there might be something wrong with us when anything outside of our minds suggests we are different. When we are labeled with say, bipolar-ism - I think we tend to identify with these labels more than what we are outside of that one facet of our being. If we didn't have the illness to begin with but we start to think we have it, the illness can manifest. If we label an illness we already 'have' the more we identify with the illness the more aggressive it becomes. A placebo effect - and then the medication comes in and the dependency begins.
How many times do you hear, "Hey how are you?" "I am good/I am fine"
Some people speak up but we often keep to the status quo and I feel like it is seriously damaging our mental health because we take our cues from others without even realizing it as a problem. We don't express ourselves fully in the public eye because the public eye seems to always look for what is out of place. Even if we think we are different, it goes much deeper than the subcultures within our culture.. Something we learned when we were very young, the social norms of how to interact - But it isn't how we have always existed as human beings and it isn't how all humans exist.

Mental illness: some of us seem to believe too easily. It is all in the mind and the "system" is profiting off of our paranoia and our dependency. I am more concerned with preventing mental illness than the business of treating it. This culture seems to be a breading ground for any illness you want to make up and give a name to. One theory is that the illnesses treated with drugs now could have been treated with placebo to begin with had they been given a chance. I don't think any amount of drugs can help a mind if the mind has decided it is sick and really believes it. Drugs can numb the mind but never get at the root cause. And no drug will ever get at the root cause because no outside measure can be taken to change what is inside the mind, only the individual can make that choice. It is all about what exactly we think about our minds. If atoms are 99.999999999999 % space, what are we? We are our mind. Our mind is not our brain, it is our perception and that is shaped. Think about how we are as children. Where do our insecurities come from? Our culture. Where does our paranoia come from? It is learned. Who named these perceived mental illnesses? Hm. It more than important in this day and age to slow down, meditate and try to understand our own minds before some outside source dictates who and what we are. Try not to get stuck on what "this" is or what "that" is - culture shapes us but we also shape our culture. No paradigm is permanent, I think people either forget that or they were never told. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw

I realize I am not giving people who have a mental illness enough credit here outside of the point I am trying to make. I hope this is well received.

Right, pardon my parable for being different from the literal meaning.
But I wouldn't stop searching, and I don't believe anyone can ever be irredeemable. Or perfect.

You never count your chips at the table, or your eggs before the chicken hatches. And no man is fit to be judge of himself or of others. None can judge but God.
And from past experience online, I'm guessing some of y'all disagree or take offense. Boo hoo. I'm fine talking about my beliefs, but only if someone is genuinely interested, and not simply looking to pass blame or prejudice on me, and simply argue. I'm fine if anyone wants a genuine and civil conversation, those things are actually really fun.

Anyways, that's what I think about who we really are: that we are fluid, shaping. That we don't really know who we are until we're finished.

dont know if the cliches were sarcastic or not but either way i thought they were clever. i completely agree with you when you say we should never stop searching for it is wisdom that is seeking wisdom and a certainty today is a doubt tomorrow. i was not offended at all and i am open to a civil conversation, start a thread and we can talk philosophy or beliefs if you want

(01-21-2013, 03:53 PM)Card Wrote:  ...... that's what I think about who we really are: that we are fluid, shaping. That we don't really know who we are until we're finished.

we are fluid, shaping.
Exactly. We aren't molds and our brains are plastic. (check out The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doige, great neuroplasticity examples)
Language and culture shape our perception but nothing is absolute.

That we don't really know who we are until we're finished.
If we go about life with the attitude that we will never know who we really are until we are finished.. than we will never know. I think the key is to try to exist in each moment in search of who we are. To practice a level of awareness that allows us see into our own behavior, why we think the way we do and why we do the things we do. I think that is the only way to "know" our "self" and transcend at least some of our programming.

Maybe I will. I've had some odd past experiences talking about religion. Some people were offended, and some were actually offensive.
(A Russian Orthodox man who thought rape victims are at fault, and that non-violent Christians aren't allowed to be Christians. He was very upset that I said God wants us to be nice to others.)

i was raised Jewish with a half-sicilian and half-polish family, exposed to Catholicism and I sought after Buddhism on my own, I have read the Dhammapada,Torah, New Testament, and excerpts from the Qur'an, Id like to think of myself as pretty well rounded but i do know that not all people are that way so i can see your hesitation on the subject. my belief is that IF there is a god and he created us and free will along with us, then he loves all the same and none. but talk about equality to a deeply religious person and see how far that gets you lol

Well.
Doola.
Exactly. How. Far. Does. That. Get. You?

Because I... I am deeply religious. I love and live for God. I want to be a pastor.


So.

How far would you get, talking to me?




Because, believe me, I have seen homophobes, abusers, racists and the other trash. And not one had any love for God in their hearts. Not even in an "lol" way.

People are not trash no matter what they have done. Please find more compassion. People who hurt others in this way are suffering somewhere inside. Somewhere along the way something happened to them that caused them to be this way - We could have ended up like them very easily, and maybe we secretly are one of these "types" of people.
But we are more than that..
If someone doesn't believe in your God, it doesn't mean they don't have ethics or know the meaning of Love. Love and Truth translate into every belief system. God is a name we have given to something we feel, not something we understand. Allah, HaShem, Ahura Mazda, Queztalcoatl, Biame, Bregedal etc.
What we identify with / how we label our self is not what we really are. Every being has a different way of making peace with the world -

Thich Nhat Hahn.
The First Mindfulness Training:

Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, we are determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist teachings are a guiding means to help us learn to look deeply and to develop our understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight, kill or die for.

Human life is more precious than any ideology or doctrine. In the name of ideologies and doctrines, people kill and are killed. If you have a gun, you can shoot one, two, three, five people, but if you have an ideology and stick with it, thinking it is the absolute truth, you can kill millions. This mindfulness training includes the admonition not to kill in its deepest sense. Humankind suffers very much from attachment to views. "If you don't follow this teaching, I will cut off your head." In the name of the truth, we kill each other. The world is stuck in that situation. There are people who still think that Marxism is the highest product of the human mind, that nothing can compare with it. Others think it is crazy, and that we have to destroy these people. We are caught in this situation.
One of the most basic teachings of the Buddha is that life is precious. Peace can only be achieved when we are free from fanaticism.

Oh. Right. You thought I meant it in a derogatory sense. I guess I just don't know what else describes them, and it's used by some of them too. What I mean are the people who have lived their whole life in poverty. "Trash" probably isn't the kindest word, I just don't know any others, and there is rarely need for other words.

I just don't know, I guess. It's mainly used by rich and privileged guys to describe them. No one else has a name for them, so if we have to we say "trash."

I'm also not attaching it to any particular religion. I've known all sorts.



But... Please... What you're doing now... Don't do that to me. I am a pacifist. I don't need you to assume I'm violent and prejudiced because I am very religious. I have enough labels being attached to me for that as it is. I don't need you to run an intervention.

It's just like when you joked about deeply religious people not liking equality. That is not something I want to see, from anyone. Being deeply involved in religion does not make you hateful towards others, you should know that.

So... Could you try to not jump to conclusions about me?
And if I've misread you, many apologies.

(01-21-2013, 10:27 PM)Card Wrote:  .........

It's just like when you joked about deeply religious people not liking equality. That is not something I want to see, from anyone. Being deeply involved in religion does not make you hateful towards others, you should know that.

So... Could you try to not jump to conclusions about me?
And if I've misread you, many apologies.

I never joked about deeply religious people not liking equality - I have my own views on the subject that I have refrained from expressing. You are mixing me up with someone else.

Being religious does not necessarily make someone a violent and prejudiced person. I do not assume that you are violent and prejudiced because of your religion. It was never said, if it was implied I apologize.

There is peaceful speech, and there is violent speech.

"homophobes, abusers, racists and the other trash."
Trash.
You can always find other words for human beings. That is what we do as poets, no?

Ohh... I hate Mondays. Sorry about that.

But... Yeah. Could come up with another word, maybe. I think it is more important how a word is used rather than which one is being used. But that's just me, I guess. You might be surprised how many people think it's okay to insult others if they use PC terms.

But I should try to use a better term, especially if it implies something negative.

Though I would not exactly say you refrained from expressing your opinions on religions. I think you may have put in a paragraph or two about it there.
And yeah. I kinda wrote that while sane people are still sleeping. I think I had meant it from the perspective of the person I was kinda upset with there. Using stereotypes to because she stereotyped the religious. Or something. I seriously can't be all that sure about it.

It probably would help of I had gotten sleep last night. And if I wasn't uber-nervous yesterday. It's weird, usually I'm at my calmest on Sundays. 'Course, yesterday had unusual circumstances and... Now I'm rambling. Sorry.

I refrained from sharing my views on deeply religious people not liking equality.

Hey don't worry about it man, you've had a hard night. I'm glad you are staying on the forum. The rambling/nervous/weird state you are in I can definitely relate to.

You've got family in West Virginia?

Heh, but this is me tired and off meds. Fun, but you gotta lock me up on full moons.


But yeah, I am a "religious fanatic" and admit it. I couldn't imagine not having God as part of my everyday life.
But there are different types of extremes. I'm the cuddly extreme, I guess. Well, I'm also hilariously oblivious to people's emotions. I'm working on it though. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand women. Shame, that.

But... Yeah. It's... Interesting, having to deal with some people who are legitimately intolerant. And, honestly, I see a pretty even ratio. Even a very strong Muslim believer, who used to live in Iraq is okay being in contact with girls. And when I say strong, I think he might actually pray seven times a day. I'm pretty sure he does as best he can, at least.

You probably wouldn't think it, but I know many atheists who don't believe in equality. They basically have the same argument extreme religious conservatives do, but with "nature" replacing "God."

Huh. Thinking is easier with food in my belly. I'm gonna go get some.

My only friends are mentally ill people. Everyone has problems. But some just cling to comfort, the comfort of luxury or groups or ignorance. Yet my friends, not wanting to take prescription drugs, opted for other drugs. And with other drugs, you tend to join that group, that drug scene: for connections, and because they can all relate to each other based on how their lives revolve around addiction. So they ditch me for drugs.

Most people will talk about being different, and act like they're proud of it. But then they don't like how people treat them, so they say one thing about their thoughts and feelings and beliefs, and then they let their actions be dictated by the people they dislike: because those people have more friends, more drugs, or more money.

The most intelligent and decent person will throw all their beliefs and all their dreams away, the moment the group mentality sets in. I know, I feel myself tempted into the comfort of group thinking. And it happens before you even realize it.

So like the Jewish philosopher, Groucho Marx, said: "Whatever it is... I'm against it!"

Talk of religion is going on here, too. When Christ said: "I bring not peace, but a sword..." that whole part of his speech is important to the fact that people are easily and subtly influenced. "You think I've come to bring peace. But I say, I've come to divide..." Great stuff he said. Men are fickle, weak, and easily molded. But you can find your own self... chase your own soul. And discover how easily you're tempted, and know exactly what you're fighting.

I was actually the one who joked about deeply religious people not likeing equality, sorry if it offended you, that's exactly what it was. lets get off that but what I would like to address and I dont feel like you cleared it up that well is when you said

"Because, believe me, I have seen homophobes, abusers, racists and the other trash. And not one had any love for God in their hearts. Not even in an "lol" way."

what did that even have to do with anything that I said. also those types of people come from all cultures, religons, races, etc. a lot of people don't have any love for god in their hearts and a lot of people have love for a different god than you. some are good and some are bad but the fact that god is there or not isn't the main factor on which way they go. but ok ok i get it you slipped once its late but then you said

What I mean are the people who have lived their whole life in poverty. "Trash" probably isn't the kindest word, I just don't know any others, and there is rarely need for other words.

I just don't know, I guess. It's mainly used by rich and privileged guys to describe them. No one else has a name for them, so if we have to we say "trash."

through my experiences most people in extreme poverty are the most deeply religious because a God is the only thing they have.
poverty my friend has absolutely nothing to do with the type of person you are. that sounds like a judgment to me and through judgments we look down upon, hence my reference to inequality. i'm not going to go deeper because i can already tell this has touched a nerve for you but just know that to go from your previous posts to the last i was shocked at how that went.

---

i reread the thread and i just want to say the only point i was trying to get across when i said that is that people come in all shapes, forms, sizes, creeds, and colors. it sounds corny when i say it but until you accept that just because someone doesn't have the same views as you that doesn't make them any less of a human then we will always hate and violence(im not saying you hate and are violent) im saying others follow the path to the end. don't know where the rest of you are at but in the US its MLK day today and he said "We must live together as brothers or perish together as fools."