Poems Have Two Subjects

[Todd]

One of the books that I've found helpful is The Triggering Town by Richard Hugo. I don't know if this will be useful to anyone but just in case.

Hugo points out that when you write a poem there are really two subjects: the initiating (or triggering subject) that got you started, and the real subject that the poem is about. The poet may be only intuitively grasping at the real subject and just know when the poem "feels" done.

Hugo talks about the difficulty young poets have of freeing themselves from the initiating subject. His example is a poet writing about Autumn Rain. They put down 2-3 good lines and then can't find anything else to say about Autumn rain. They begin to make things up, go abstract, and the poem suffers. Essentially, they feel obligated to write about a subject that isn't the true subject of the poem.

So, if the triggering subject runs out of steam Hugo suggests that you simply jump ahead. If autumn rain is no longer cutting it, change the subject entirely in the next sentence you write and keep going. Don't worry about the reader at all yet. Just keep changing the subject as needed. So, you may look at the finished product and think I'm not sure what all of this has to do with Autumn Rain, but that isn't the main issue. The triggering subject is just there to get you started it may not be what the poem is really about.

I've noticed in my own writing that I will often free write 5-10 pages of a poem (different approaches, different angles, etc), and then I will find 4-5 lines that encapsulate what I'm trying to say--even though they were arrived at well after the triggering line. I find it helpful to remember that the topic that started you writing may not be the point of the poem, and you are not obligated to keep writing about it. Often I also find myself cutting the first couple of lines in a poem realizing that the real poem came later.

Oh, well hopefully his thoughts will be helpful to someone else (if that's been anyone else's experience).

Best,

Todd

[Leanne]

This is such helpful information, Todd, I should probably go and look out the book It's so very true -- I rarely know what's going on beneath the surface of what I'm writing until it's done, and then most of the editing process is to bring that second subject out while leaving the first as a sort of light cover. These days I write and do my initial edits mostly in my head (no time to sit down, and the kids have pinched all the pens!) but when I first started writing I'd do much the same as you.

I also find it helpful to use the workshop -- I'll quite often post a poem, see what other people consider the main themes, decide if that's where I want the poem to go and then polish with those themes in mind. That's why I find sites like this (particularly this, of course) invaluable.

[abu nuwas]

That is a very useful insight, and explains much. It suggests a reason as to why I sometimes come to feel comfortable with something which, at the time of writing, made me wonder whether I was mad. Another aspect of that must be, I think, those poems which, like books, films and plays, often seem to have one good idea, which was insufficient to sustain a long work, or where one feels that, with poetry, one is reading the makings of two good, but separate poems. A very interesting crystallisation of all kinds of hazy notions!

[billy]

I've noticed in my own writing that I will often free write 5-10 pages of a poem (different approaches, different angles, etc), and then I will find 4-5 lines that encapsulate what I'm trying to say--even though they were arrived at well after the triggering line. I find it helpful to remember that the topic that started you writing may not be the point of the poem, and you are not obligated to keep writing about it. Often I also find myself cutting the first couple of lines in a poem realizing that the real poem came later.

Oh, well hopefully his thoughts will be helpful to someone else (if that's been anyone else's experience).

Best,

Todd

i just fell off my chair...5 to 10 pages, and often, by free write, do you mean with pen and ink ? seriously...i admire you. i always use word or notepad, and write it as it comes. changing the first lines to fit the the rest and so on. for the large part i write as Hugo suggests. i think of a subject, start writing about it and five lines dow it all changes i then go back and alter the first 5 lines to suit or erase.
what's weird is this, the shorter the poem i'm writing, the more it changes from initial idea or thought. i may start out a haiku about a horse and it ends up about a fly. (laugh if you must but in 17 syls one word change alters the whole poem.) it's a god insite Todd, something i never really noticed before.

thinking about it, if i do a poem in word, i must do at the very least a couple of pages, it just seems that i write a lot less because i'm always removing things i've written.

[Todd]

I've noticed in my own writing that I will often free write 5-10 pages of a poem (different approaches, different angles, etc), and then I will find 4-5 lines that encapsulate what I'm trying to say--even though they were arrived at well after the triggering line. I find it helpful to remember that the topic that started you writing may not be the point of the poem, and you are not obligated to keep writing about it. Often I also find myself cutting the first couple of lines in a poem realizing that the real poem came later.

Oh, well hopefully his thoughts will be helpful to someone else (if that's been anyone else's experience).

Best,

Todd

i just fell off my chair...5 to 10 pages, and often, by free write, do you mean with pen and ink ? seriously...i admire you. i always use word or notepad, and write it as it comes. changing the first lines to fit the the rest and so on. for the large part i write as Hugo suggests. i think of a subject, start writing about it and five lines dow it all changes i then go back and alter the first 5 lines to suit or erase.
what's weird is this, the shorter the poem i'm writing, the more it changes from initial idea or thought. i may start out a haiku about a horse and it ends up about a fly. (laugh if you must but in 17 syls one word change alters the whole poem.) it's a god insite Todd, something i never really noticed before.

thinking about it, if i do a poem in word, i must do at the very least a couple of pages, it just seems that i write a lot less because i'm always removing things i've written.

Most of what I do is in word. If all I have is a pad of paper though I'll work on that. I type faster than I write so I prefer word. It also makes shifting things around easier. I start writing and go until I stop usually a page or two. Then I read what I wrote and look for lines or ideas that seem to want to come out (when I see myself repeating phrases or themes). I pull those lines to the bottom of the output and start from there and keep going (which can be another 5-10 pages on average) Those free writes sometimes have 2-3 poems in them sometimes none. I save the document under a work in progress type name and if I have opening lines move those to another document which usually turns into a poem. I've just learned like Hugo says that some of the lines that got me to the poem aren't the poem.

[Aish]

I feel inferior just reading this thread. I can literally 'feel' a poem - it drops, whether I am writing on my arm with an ink pen while driving or rapping it directly on site - and there's a small amount of cleanup.

I guess I should take a more academic approach.

[Leanne]

Poems drop, and sometimes we accidentally spill poetry... but I like the process to be more controlled. I'm just anal like that

[Todd]

It takes awhile to find out how you access your creativity. I'm pragmatic whatever gets you to the.result you need.

[billy]

I've just learned like Hugo says that some of the lines that got me to the poem aren't the poem.

i'd go further by saying most of the lines.

I feel inferior just reading this thread. I can literally 'feel' a poem - it drops, whether I am writing on my arm with an ink pen while driving or rapping it directly on site - and there's a small amount of cleanup.

i have those as well sometimes. i don't think what or how i get to a poem is academical. it's more a game of hit and miss, throwing things into the pot and then having a taste, if something tastes good that's the taste i work with.

Poems drop, and sometimes we accidentally spill poetry... but I like the process to be more controlled. I'm just anal like that

i agree. on the odd occasion i have a dropped poem, but in general i drop the idea of a poem and very often see it change into something completely different.

[Wildcard]

This is extremely helpful to me. Thanks to all.

[grannyjill]

I have two approaches to writing poetry...one is by hard effort and constant re-writes and the other is by some unconscious part of my brain that dictates them to me as I type it on the computer (with the minimum of input by me)

The latter seems (to me) to provide me with the most satisfying poems.
But, also with the poems which I find hardest to 'tinker' with.

But, I reckon Todd you have given me some wonderful ideas. I often find that I've said all I want to say about 'Autumn' in one verse and I should let my mind shift to wherever it wants to go[/u], no matter how far from the original idea that might be.....and I must be prepared not to keep everything that appears on the page.

Thanks for your advice.
grannyjill

[Leanne]

Bumping this up, since it's incredibly useful advice.

[serge gurkski]

agreed!

[cidermaid]

This thread seams to be making a real connection for many of us - thanks for the initial post Todd.
This was the thought in my surreal poem...I wrote a poem about writing poems. The trees are telling lies was found in my need to hold a pencil as one of my creative processes. (what comes out of the end of the pencil can be like having some one else write). Other times I work like others have mentioned, throw it on the computer screen and then play pick up sticks with the resulting pile of words.
I agree the ideas and advise conning out of this thread need to be given some consideration...they are reading like one of the poetry exercise sessions. Really helpful.

[rowens]

Somebody said something about someone, somewhere: "There is no subject; and he is its poet..."

I think that it might have been somebody talking about Henry Miller. But I'm not sure now. So don't quote me.

Not that you would.