The onset of winter

[Jae Mc Donnell]

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey
His presence looming ever closer
His huge expanse besieged her
Casting hope into silhouette
I told you did I not
His venomous lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A malignant instrument set from on high
Not even heaven can turn my chiding eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

---

this is is my revision on my revised revision.2nd edit

This is my re-do. Thanks again for the help Todd.
Her beauty, pale against the cold dead grey

1st edit

Onset Of Wineter

His bitter expanse surrounded her
Setting hope in silhouette
I told you did I not
His venomous lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A malignant instrument
Not even heaven can turn my chiding eye
I swear it now you will die
Slender, her beauty stood poised
Her hope seemed viscous
His grip tightened
Just seconds now
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

Original:

The Onset of Winter


Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey
She could feel his presence drawing ever closer
His huge expanse surrounded her
Setting her delicateness in absolute shadow
I told you did I not
His cold dead lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A deathly instrument sent to rip you violently from your place
Not even your beauty will bring tear to my cold dead eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Loving and defiant, her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

[Todd]

Hi Jae,

Welcome to the site!

Here are a few comments for your poem:

First love the title, it's evocative and draws me in.

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey--I'm not sure what stood buys you aside from the personification I'd be tempted to cut it and put a comma after beauty. Beside that one word for me it's a nice opening line. I like cold dead grey for coming winter weather it's the season or an emotional state.
She could feel his presence drawing ever closer--a bit wordy here, see if you can do away with things like "she could feel" This is mild so I don't intend to go line by line, but consider looking for phrases you could cut and don't be so concerned about the narrative transitions
His huge expanse surrounded her--expanse gives a sense of huge. Maybe there's another word that could give you a different tone (i.e., bleak expanse, etc).
Setting her delicateness in absolute shadow
I told you did I not
His cold dead lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A deathly instrument sent to rip you violently from your place
Not even your beauty will bring tear to my cold dead eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Loving and defiant, her hope seemed viscous--viscous is a great word
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower--this is a great final surprise. Here's the thing throughout though you could pare down a lot of this poem to make it tighter and get to the ending quicker. I think that's what I'd look to do in your place. You have some nice ideas here, and this could be a very effective poem.

Again, welcome!

Best,

Todd

[Jae Mc Donnell]

Hi Jae,

Welcome to the site!

Here are a few comments for your poem:

First love the title, it's evocative and draws me in.

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey--I'm not sure what stood buys you aside from the personification I'd be tempted to cut it and put a comma after beauty. Beside that one word for me it's a nice opening line. I like cold dead grey for coming winter weather it's the season or an emotional state.
She could feel his presence drawing ever closer--a bit wordy here, see if you can do away with things like "she could feel" This is mild so I don't intend to go line by line, but consider looking for phrases you could cut and don't be so concerned about the narrative transitions
His huge expanse surrounded her--expanse gives a sense of huge. Maybe there's another word that could give you a different tone (i.e., bleak expanse, etc).
Setting her delicateness in absolute shadow
I told you did I not
His cold dead lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A deathly instrument sent to rip you violently from your place
Not even your beauty will bring tear to my cold dead eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Loving and defiant, her hope seemed viscous--viscous is a great word
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower--this is a great final surprise. Here's the thing throughout though you could pare down a lot of this poem to make it tighter and get to the ending quicker. I think that's what I'd look to do in your place. You have some nice ideas here, and this could be a very effective poem.

Again, welcome!

Best,

Todd

I hope I'm getting this reply right. Fingers crossed.
Todd thankyou very much for taking the time to read and reply to my poem. There are some great ideas here. I will get to it tgis evening and post my re-do when done.
And thank you for the warm welcome. It seems loke a great resource and I hope I can become a usefull member

---

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey
She could feel his presence drawing ever closer
His huge expanse surrounded her
Setting her delicateness in absolute shadow
I told you did I not
His cold dead lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A deathly instrument sent to rip you violently from your place
Not even your beauty will bring tear to my cold dead eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Loving and defiant, her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

This is my re-do. Thanks again for the help Todd.
Her beauty, pale against the cold dead grey
His bitter expanse surrounded her
Setting hope in silhouette
I told you did I not
His venomous lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A malignant instrument
Not even heaven can turn my chiding eye
I swear it now you will die
Slender, her beauty stood poised
Her hope seemed viscous
His grip tightened
Just seconds now
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

[Art Deco]

Jae - I really liked this - Full of vivid imagery - The battle of Jack Frost vs the tender flower. All my garden annuals has now surrended to the onset of the freezing air with the marigolds the last to die!
Just a few comments .....

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey Great opebning line but might "bright" be better than "pale" - a more powerful contrast between "cold dread grey" and the vivid colour of a flower.
She could feel his presence drawing ever closer - Perhaps "creeping"?
His huge expanse surrounded her - "Engulfed" ?
Setting her delicateness in absolute shadow
I told you did I not
His cold dead lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A deathly instrument sent to rip you violently from your place Not sure if "rip" works here - Perhaps ... sent to wither and fade your summer's lustre
Not even your beauty will bring tear to my cold dead eye - I like this line
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Loving and defiant, her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
I find this metaphor a bit far- reaching when attributed to a flower and not an animal - Maybe something like "Freezing the the last of her life -giving juices"
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

My sort of poem - Thanks for sharing

[Jae Mc Donnell]

My sort of poem - Thanks for sharing

Hi Art Deco. Thankyou for the reply. Just to let you know I have already reposted a re-do above. I would love to know what you think of this one. I'll post it here again.
Thank you again for your reply..

Her beauty, pale against the cold dead grey
His bitter expanse surrounded her
Setting hope in silhouette
I told you did I not
His venomous lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A malignant instrument
Not even heaven can turn my chiding eye
I swear it now you will die
Slender, her beauty stood poised
Her hope seemed viscous
His grip tightened
Just seconds now
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

[Rose Love]

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey
She could feel his presence drawing ever closer
His huge expanse surrounded her
Setting her delicateness in absolute shadow
I told you did I not
His cold dead lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A deathly instrument sent to rip you violently from your place
Not even your beauty will bring tear to my cold dead eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Loving and defiant, her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

Oh my God, I love this poem! Why did you change it? Put it back! Seriously, I think this one is infinitely better!

[Jae Mc Donnell]

Oh my God, I love this poem! Why did you change it? Put it back! Seriously, I think this one is infinitely better!
[/quote]

Hello to you Rose love and thak you for such a nice comment.
Em just to comment on my own poem if that seems ok. Someone pointed out to me that I overused some words in this ie, cold, death and this stood to make it one dimensional. I also think that it was a bit overdrawn. I guess I just have to find the balance. But thank you again for your kind words

[Rose Love]

Oh my God, I love this poem! Why did you change it? Put it back! Seriously, I think this one is infinitely better!

Hello to you Rose love and thak you for such a nice comment.
Em just to comment on my own poem if that seems ok. Someone pointed out to me that I overused some words in this ie, cold, death and this stood to make it one dimensional. I also think that it was a bit overdrawn. I guess I just have to find the balance. But thank you again for your kind words
[/quote]

I see what you mean about the repetitions with "death" and "dead," but that is just a little cosmetic stuff that a thesaurus could help with. This revision is an entirely different poem. For one thing, the "stood" in the first line needs to be there, IMO. It lends a lot to the setting. (Apparently I completely disagree with Todd.) The word "stood" enabled me to see a pale female standing amid the greyness. In fact, at first I thought they might be actual people. The "stood" emphasizes the contrast between her paleness and the cold dead grey. It also lends a better rhythm to the poem. Without it, and with many of the other changes, it reads more like prose.

I might as well just go through these--I also disagree with Todd's comment on the 2nd line and I miss that line as well and liked it.

Regarding the "huge expanse," I agree that it could be redundant, but if it were my poem, I think I would focus solely on the idea of the overwhelming vastness of him, and not mix in another adjective, as it takes away from the impact of his vastness.

I suppose I would just find synonyms or alternative words for the repeated words. Seriously, though, I really love this one. Maybe partially because I have written a few things about the onset of autumn, and autumn is like...my nemesis and I have written something similar to this poem about autumn. I get inexplicably taken with a darkness, a depression and a loneliness when autumn comes around and I just don't get it. Anyway, this is better than what I have written about autumn--although it wasn't a poem, per se, and it was a very personal piece, so maybe "different" from this one is a better way to describe it.

Anyway, I was quite impressed by this one. I can say, when I read this, I felt a kind of...I felt him as a predator or this very masculine, dominant presence and her as this delicate, vulnerable, feminine flower that he was about to abuse and that made an impact on me too.

[Jae Mc Donnell]

So thanks again to everyone.

---

[/quote]Tis is my revision on my revised revision.

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey
His presence looming ever closer
His huge expanse besieged her
Casting hope into silhouette
I told you did I not
His venomous lips spit as he spoke
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A malignant instrument set from on high
Not even heaven can turn my chiding eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poised
Her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

[Rose Love]

I think it's a great first attempt. The vocabulary is good and imagery too and the whole idea about the murder and the juxtaposition of them.

I have something like "the darkness of his ominous energy overshadowed her"...or actually you could do so much with this, I almost wish I had written it Ok, I'll leave it to you lol. Thanks for sharing it.

Anyway, I think his words ought to be in "..." to denote direct speech.

[Todd]

His words could also be italicized it may look cleaner.

You seem to be having some minor issues with the formatting tags. Check some of the topics Mark put up in "How to Use the Pig Pen".

Still look at some areas to pare down that are unnecessarily redundant:

His venomous lips spit as he spoke (for example why do you need as he spoke here?)

While I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, the reason I don't like stood in line one is beauty doesn't stand in itself. It feels like a sloppy construction to me. It could just be me.

Also, is a flower concerned with air (the lungs line) or is it more the blotting out of heat or sunlight.

Just thoughts. It doesn't all have to be too literal, but that's where I was coming from.

You're making some good progress with this.

Best,

Todd

[Rose Love]

While I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, the reason I don't like stood in line one is beauty doesn't stand in itself. It feels like a sloppy construction to me. It could just be me.

I realize now that when I read that line, in my mind, I associated the phrase with the phrase "to stand in contrast" to something. I like it with the word "stood" in there, maybe that's why.

I make lots of associations without always being able to articulate them, which is why it's sometimes hard to give feedback beyond saying I like something, like when I first read this poem. You really have to do some digging to analyze "why," if you're able to analyze it at all. Then, in a way, analyzing, like dissecting, tears it apart and the magic goes out of your experience of the poem like breath out of body at the moment of death. Like the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So I guess it's good to keep a bird's-eye view of the whole poem while changing it and not focus on changes in isolation, but to approach the poem as one whole life and not a sum of words and linguistic constructs.

[Todd]

While I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, the reason I don't like stood in line one is beauty doesn't stand in itself. It feels like a sloppy construction to me. It could just be me.

I realize now that when I read that line, in my mind, I associated the phrase with the phrase "to stand in contrast" to something. I like it with the word "stood" in there, maybe that's why.

I make lots of associations without always being able to articulate them, which is why it's sometimes hard to give feedback beyond saying I like something, like when I first read this poem. You really have to do some digging to analyze "why," if you're able to analyze it at all. Then, in a way, analyzing, like dissecting, tears it apart and the magic goes out of your experience of the poem like breath out of body at the moment of death. Like the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So I guess it's good to keep a bird's-eye view of the whole poem while changing it and not focus on changes in isolation, but to approach the poem as one whole life and not a sum of words and linguistic constructs.

The magic can also go out of a poem if one of the parts is off too. All approaches have merit. There's only so far we can go in mild though.

We should probably take this up in another thread if we want to explore this further so as not be unfair to this thread.

[Jae Mc Donnell]

[/quote]

The magic can also go out of a poem if one of the parts is off too. All approaches have merit. There's only so far we can go in mild though.

We should probably take this up in another thread if we want to explore this further so as not be unfair to this thread.
[/quote]

Just a question. Should I repost this in another thread and there I could explain what I was trying for in each line Then maybe you could let me know if I'm anywhere near.
As I've said I'm completely new to poetry so any and all help is very appreciated.

[billy]

usually we post any edits in the first post so people can see if it works or not without flying off to see the original in another place/post. we can if requested move a poem from one forum to another for things like a more in depth piece of crit or feedback

i reposted the edits in the original 1st post so you can see how it's done

[Todd]

The magic can also go out of a poem if one of the parts is off too. All approaches have merit. There's only so far we can go in mild though.

We should probably take this up in another thread if we want to explore this further so as not be unfair to this thread.
[/quote]

Just a question. Should I repost this in another thread and there I could explain what I was trying for in each line Then maybe you could let me know if I'm anywhere near.
As I've said I'm completely new to poetry so any and all help is very appreciated.
[/quote]

Jae, we could move this to serious if you wanted that. Telling us what you intended for each line though might be counterproductive. In general while its okay to make some comments for clarity, extensive comments can make it hard for you to know if the poem conveyed the idea, or if your explanation is what people are seeing. If you wanted me to, I could give you a line by line on what I think you're saying, and you can see if I'm getting what you think I should.

The truth is though I don't think the issues with the poem are clarity issues more tightening of the ideas.

Best,

Todd

[billy]

words that aren't needed are best removed. a word that over extends a phrase or moment by making it less precise or powerful does a line a disservice. usually it's called excess, baggage, or verbiage. the less of it we have in a poem, the better the poem usually is, (of course there are some exceptions) i've bolded out words that seem to be verbiage.

Her beauty stood pale against the cold dead grey
His presence looming ever closer
His huge expanse besieged her
Casting hope into silhouette
I told you did I not
His venomous lips spit as he spoke spat
With frost bitten hands he gripped at her throat
I am your great castigator
A malignant instrument set from on high
Not even heaven can turn my chiding eye
I swear it now you will die
But as he spit and raged her slender beauty stood poisedspat, and a comma after raged,
Her hope seemed viscous
Even as he squeezed tighter
Draining the last of the air from her life giving lungs
She knew that after all this death, would come life
So with elegant grace she gave up the fight
And the world watched on in silence to the death of a flower

---

this is is my revision on my revised revision.2nd edit

you have some really good stuff happening here. but some of the good stuff is buried under excess. the woman (flower) is being murdered by him (winter) the way you write it needs to carry that fear, that melodrama of life and death. some of the lines work well the metaphor of winter killing works well. the title works well.

well well well

seriously. a great effort. i see your problem as being unable to to decide what's right and what's not. one person says this, another says that and yet more say something else. my suggestion is to read the poem aloud, after the edit, read all the edits aloud in a normal voice. pick what works for you, not what we say works for us, all our words are, are suggestions for you to use. one thing to remember is; if a lot of people say something is wrong then the odds are 'that something' needs looking at.

sorry for over critiquing in the mild forum, i got a feel you were unsure of what route to take.

[Rose Love]

I know what I like in your poem and what don't like about the suggested revisions and the revisions themselves and I would still work with the original version and none of the revisions. However, the only person who I think is qualified to make and approve any changes is you, so I don't want to keep dwelling on details or specific feedback given about the poem.

My advice is to write from your heart and not from your head/intellect. You have the language in your head and you don't need to apply deliberate thought or analysis to your poetry writing. The language is already innately integrated in your heart--this is something that most who begin writing are greatly lacking in, but you have it and it is one of the harder aspects to get when writing poetry. That's what I think.

When you write, use your heart to write intuitively what feels like what you want others to feel. Shut all deliberate intellect and thought out, quiet your mind and your feelings and then view the poem as a whole life, each phrase dependent on the other, each word dependent on the others, and then as you look at that life, feel (do not think) where its expression may be faltering. Then use the same method to improve any sections that you can feel are faltering.

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it feels like the original version of this poem was written from the heart, but the revisions are being written from the head and in a way that does not keep the full poem in view--in a way that is disconnected from the rest of the poem.

In my opinion, it's your poem and you need to weigh the feedback we give in your heart, not in your head, and any revision you do ought to be from your heart with the input of the intellect (and not really from the intellect with just the input of the heart).

I think the best poetry a person can write comes by intuition and by heart, if that person already has a good feel for words and language, and in my opinion you have a better than average feel for the words and language than others who are just beginning. Then all that remains is to learn how to write from your intuition and your heart.

One example of a poem written purely by intuition is this one:

http://pigpenpoetry.com/Thread-Soft-spoken-Musings

I wrote this poem without applying my mind for even one second. The poem just came into my heart and completely bypassed my head. It was like someone was dictating them to me. I didn't know where it was going or even what it was about. I just wrote down the words. At the time I wrote it, it was the best and most uplifting poem I had ever written, and the easiest to write, because all I had to do was receive the words, then write them down before they disappeared from memory and before the next words came.

I have written a few other poems in the same way and they always turn out to be very interesting, if not always understandable to me. I would like to be able to access that kind of poetry and method of writing regularly and to develop that as a skill. I'm sure if I could, my poetry would become much better.

The thing is, no one who is in their head can receive this kind of poetry. As soon as you enter your head, the source of that poetry is blocked out.

[billy]

see the problem you have, we're fighting over you at the end of the day, the choice is what do you want. to put things in perspective i'll give you my side. writing from the heart is fantastic and greatly good....if it works. often it doesn't. remember when you were a child and wrote all the letters and thought "WOW i'm great at writing" and mummy asked, "what does this say Jae" she kept it nonetheless because she loved you if you could read that piece of paper now, you'd see; nothing but scribbles. no kind of writing is good unless it has structure, without structure it's called gibberish. cliche is one of the main attributes of something written from the heart. we read, hear or see, something we like and store it away as something good or nice. when we write from the heart it's often those memories that pour out. writing from the head on the other hand allows us to alter those memories so that they become your your memories.

rose said;

I have written a few other poems in the same way and they always turn out to be very interesting, if not always understandable to me.

if all people want to do is write poems for yourself then that's fine. by putting your poem here we assume it's not just for yourself. it's now public and could in theory go viral. do you want a good poem or a poem from the heart? you as the poet has to decide what advice or suggestions to follow. the consensus of hundreds of years is that poetry from the heart has to go hand in hand with originality, syntax, presentation and much more for it to be good poetry. read some of the good poets and see for yourself.

she walks in beauty is a classic well written poem from the heart, and it's stunning. but and this is the biggest but you'll see....it's good. from the heart doesn't equate with good or great. first and foremost, the poem has to be good before it can be a good from the heart poem. jmo

[Leanne]

@ billy: As this is a critique forum, and the critique guidelines say It is possibly best to avoid giving “life advice” in a critique, other than as a direct requirement for interpretation of the piece, let's try sticking to the poem shall we? Thanks/ admin