what is the point of writing poetry?

[billy]

filling a void with something i enjoy

[Leanne]

getting laid

[Todd]

getting laid

I think women poets even the creepy ones have a better shot at poetry opening that opportunity. Though it doesn't stop the most unsubtle poetic exhibitionist from trying at open mic nights around the world.

No Baby, that was a dactyl.

[billy]

that's an excellent point. even when i wrote shitty love poems women loved the thought behind them. my partner loved me to write her stuff.

[Leanne]

getting laid

I think women poets even the creepy ones have a better shot at poetry opening that opportunity. Though it doesn't stop the most unsubtle poetic exhibitionist from trying at open mic nights around the world.

No Baby, that was a dactyl.

it's all about the assonance

[Todd]

getting laid

I think women poets even the creepy ones have a better shot at poetry opening that opportunity. Though it doesn't stop the most unsubtle poetic exhibitionist from trying at open mic nights around the world.

No Baby, that was a dactyl.

it's all about the assonance

[rowens]

The point of everything I say is that poetry is more than words. More than writing. We have to poetically construct the world. But before we can do that, we have to construct ourselves; or at least realize what's going on with that "conditioning" talked about in another post. I can't seem to get past people assuming that I'm trying to explain my poems. Most of the poems I've put on here are frustrated, ironic love poems, which are only a small part of what I'm talking about poetry.
So much we do is unconscious. We're unconscious of so much of the little things each of does, collectively, each day that builds up problems for us and other people. To me, crafting our minds and actions are the most important part of poetry, before we start writing things down.
So the point of poetry, the point of writing poetry is to live at all. Another post talks of people writing poetry online that's only zombie poetry. That's a problem deeper than the lack of form and techniques they use, it takes a lot of work to be a person and a lot of work to make poems. And those things are starters for working on the world. And every time I say this to anyone, they tell me that's only my opinion.

I give some details about myself, to be able to explain how these simple opinions have cost me everything. I can't walk away as Billy says. The doctor said that my desire to get out of this town is a delusional attempt at escaping. He said that about poetry too. I can't drive, because of the blinding pain.

But these things make it clear to me that many people use poetry to deal with reality. But many use it to condition themselves and their immediate environment, when there are so many more important uses for poetry. Poetry in action, poetry in the rewiring of how people function internally and externally.

---

I should have put it, "condition themselves in their immediate environment". Which casts a veil over other important situations and understandings.

I do care about other people, and what other people think. And I do care about the lives of people, whether they're poets or not. I care as much about what they do in their poems as I care about what they say about themselves and other things. If you don't want zombie poetry, you have to consider your own opinions and experiences of things.

I'm being told I'm thinking too much about what other people think about my poetry. I'm also being told that I have to supply the demand for what people think about poetry for my poetry to be poetry.

When I'm writing in a discussion, I'm free to voice my opinions, however strongly I feel about them. I think most here agree, as implied in the "Zombie poetry" post, that Imagination and Creativity are important for philosophical and political and moral reasons.---And so I'm discussing the climate of these things, as I've experienced it. That many people don't have the means or even the health to get out of the environments they're trapped in. And to have ideas and tastes and beliefs, and Imaginitive and Creative needs that differ from those conditioned to that one environment can cost you everything. But people have Internet in these places, and they use it to voice these conditioned ideas and beliefs. And so these conditions spread. As so with TV and even books. Even telephone conversations.

"not at the expense of being a productive, cooperative member of the society we build by contributing to it."

Society, as is, is deeply flawed. There must be some misunderstanding, because I don't think Leanne, a teacher, is telling me that studying hard, reading, and trying to understand people and the world is a form of hedonism. And I believe that literature is a very important function in affectively changing the way people function. Religion has strong influence, but it's lost much of its power for many people. But there has to be a way to influence people: to work up some state of mind in tired, weak people that are addicted to drugs, or people that are buying and supporting products from companies that are exploiting and manipulating their workers and their customers in ways that it's hard to wrap my mind around. The mind is powerful. It can work wonders. I have to use poetry to keep myself functioning. I believe that it can be used to tap into human potentials. But poetry has to be experimental. It has to take risks. I think others here have argued that point too. And that is the point of these discussions. Discussing what each believes that poetry can and can't do, what poetry is and isn't.

All that anyone says here may only be their opinions. That's true of everyone, everywhere; though those opinions may be heavily conditioned by others whose opinions are also conditioned in ways they're not aware of.

But what gets me off on what most will consider rants is: Every time I state my opinions, someone makes the point to say something like "But that's only your opinions." Because, I think that's established from the beginning. But what's the point of having opinions, or Imagination of your own, if you're not going to put them into practice, by discussing or writing about them? Or by not supporting a society that so readily dismisses or counters the needs of less fortunate people all over the world? What is literature if not the opinions and creative imaginings and work of individuals?

It's only a doctor's opinion that I am crazy that allowed my family to have a piece of paper legally locking me in a hospital and force fed drugs if I say anything they think is strange or if I wear my beard too long for their taste.---But I'm not the only one. This conditioning Leanne argues against is dangerous. And sad. You have to some how shock your way out of it.

And poetry and working through poetry can do that. But if that's only my opinion, then I'm a minority of one. And I don't think that's true.

[rowens]

"Affectively changing the way people function" should be made clear, as opposed to simply saying "effectively". The affective experience of people, opposed to the effects of the conditioning they have lived in.

[Leanne]

Society is deeply flawed? Thank god someone pointed that out, we've all been writing about how pretty kittens are. And yes, pursuit of ANYTHING purely for pleasure, to the exclusion of all else, is hedonism. I don't care how you justify it and I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with a bit of self-gratification now and then, but just knowing isn't learning. I can have students regurgitate facts all day long, but that doesn't mean they've been taught a damn thing.

So yes, society is flawed -- what are you doing about that? The point is application of knowledge -- helping others to contextualise it and mesh it with what they already know to produce a new understanding. We can do that with poetry, but only if the poetry is packaged in such a way that people can use their prior knowledge to access these new ideas, and only if the new ideas allow people to engage their higher order processes rather than simply telling them what to think.

Incidentally, I don't recall anyone specifically targetting your poetry. Any arguments have been against your philosophy on what constitutes poetry -- and since philosophy is largely a personal thing, I think that's fair. My own philosophies are in a state of flux for the most part, though I have strong ideas about the importance of audience in particular -- and additionally, I don't believe poetry should simply be about "dealing with reality", it should be about altering that reality for the better, for more than one person.

[Keith]

For me the point of writing peotry should be because you enjoy it, if acceptance and recognition of what you write is important then you should write for a target audience, if you only write for yourself then poetry is about self worth and personal ability and creativity. Most people write, wanting recognition and miss their audience, in my opinion

[rowens]

And I never said anyone was targetting my poetry, but it seems that I'm supposed to be arguing in favor of writing my poems for no audience, though I didn't say that.

People know that society is flawed. Many know what makes things worse, they do it anyway. I know that society is flawed, and that doesn't give me pleasure. Poetry doesn't have to tell anyone what to think, but it can sometimes. Poetry can go deeper than thought, and that's why it's a great aid to philosophy.--And before you can alter reality for the better, there has to be a reality to alter. Prior knowledge is always only "conditioned" knowledge, and we aren't all conditioned in the same way. Whatever we know or learn isn't necessarily reality.--No matter if you're "telling" or "showing" in a poem or elsewhere, most people will see and know and learn, and still not alter a thing for the better.

I get very little pleasure out of reading and writing, though, sometimes, I'm able to enjoy it. I don't know where I said that I was doing anything purely for pleasure. I don't see where I said I got pleasure out of knowing things for pleasure only. It's better to say that I get great displeasure out of knowing most things. All I've said is that I have a hard time getting anything out of life unless it's poetically enhanced. And as long as I can poetically enhance my life, I can then be motivated to learn and discuss things with others, and work toward altering things for the better. But there's no one I know that will discuss these things with me, or get up and go out and look at things with me. And since I have pains that sometimes paralyze my mind for long periods of time, I've been put in a position where if I speak about trying to alter things for the better, everybody I know puts that down to a symptom of delusion.--None of that says that I'm doing anything for pleasure or denying the need for an audience. And none of my philosophy of poetry that I've wrote about here has encouraged anyone to write only for pleasure and only for themselves. On the contrary, I'm making the point that poetry is important for the world, regardless of the fact that many people don't actually read or understand written poetry. And if no one reads it, or cares about you as a person in the place where you are, you can still write it or use it in other ways.

[billy]

we can only discuss/argue.comment on what the point of writing poetry is for us. if what you say is your pov, it would be difficult to argue otherwise unless you play devil's advocate.
of course poetry is more than words. but without words you can't have poetry (the linguistic type) i don't think anyone would disagree with that fact.

you say

All that anyone says here may only be their opinions. That's true of everyone, everywhere; though those opinions may be heavily conditioned by others whose opinions are also conditioned in ways they're not aware of.

i'm not sure people are saying their opinions are right, they're just saying their opinions are their opinions.

But what gets me off on what most will consider rants is: Every time I state my opinions, someone makes the point to say something like "But that's only your opinions."

i consider much of what you say in this thread a rant, and i think you're beginning to see that you're opinion while valid, may only be valid to you. it may be valid to others but being valid to you is a certainty .

It's only a doctor's opinion that I am crazy that allowed my family to have a piece of paper legally locking me in a hospital and force fed drugs if I say anything they think is strange or if I wear my beard too long for their taste.---But I'm not the only one. This conditioning Leanne argues against is dangerous. And sad. You have to some how shock your way out of it.

yes, and i've been in prison but who cares? i'm sorry but that only has a bearing on your live...see that it's your opinion thing again?

I'm making the point that poetry is important for the world, regardless of the fact that many people don't actually read or understand written poetry.

i agree with you but think of this for a bit of zen, it's as important as it is unimportant.

I've been put in a position where if I speak about trying to alter things for the better, everybody I know puts that down to a symptom of delusion.

i don't i'm sure the world stage wouldn't. i'd say that's a personal within a family sphere that only you can control. from what you say i see you as having no control that said, i don't see you.
if poetry is about philosophy then i don't want poetry. if it's about pain or self don't want it. i want it if it's about fun and happiness and sex and silly thing like shit and vomit and booze. writing poetry isn't about those high end ideals it's about what i want it to be.

[rowens]

Every aspect of society, every aspect of my personality is conditioned. To poetically enhance the aspects that I am capable of distingishing as better aspects is merely poetry. For me to have an opinion at all is merely me taking part in mere "poetic" assumptions based on conditioning.

No one has to agree with me. And I agree with mostly everything else that everyone else is saying here. And when you say it's as important as it is unimportant, I agree with that. I wanted to talk about the point of poetry, what it is to me, and I wanted others to talk about what it is to them. But along the way I was accused of promoting hedonism and wanting to write poems for no audience. Which brings me to another opinion of mine: that one of the most widespread and deeply conditioned things in people is the need for conflict.--It might not be important when reading someone's poems to know about their life or personal opinions, but to explain why I'm discussing poetry at all, through my opinions, it might help to get some background on why I have these opinions. If only for the sake of discussion.

When it comes to pain, we all feel pain. But the ways that people deal with pain and conflict affect the people around them. If everyone doesn't look at things deeply and seriously, the problems in life will never get better. And Everyone will never do that. Even if the solution to all of the world's problems magically appeared in a bag, that would only create the new problems of those that have a problem with the boring destiny that would bring about for people, along with much deeper and complex problems.

Civilization and society contain many realities. If people can say that poetry is simply an enjoyable hobby, that's fine. But I don't experience it that way. Nor do I think that TV or drugs or other such things are good enough ways to deal with problems.

I think the problem is society itself. That it has to be done away with. This society will never solve its problems as long as it exists. So to make it as plainly as possible, one last time, my desperate acceptance of this painful truth lies in poetry, or poetic enhancement, and what poetry motivates me to do: whether that be write a poem, or work to support someone I love, or try to help anyone I can that needs it.

[billy]

Every aspect of society, every aspect of my personality is conditioned. To poetically enhance the aspects that I am capable of distingishing as better aspects is merely poetry. For me to have an opinion at all is merely me taking part in mere "poetic" assumptions based on conditioning.

No one has to agree with me. And I agree with mostly everything else that everyone else is saying here. And when you say it's as important as it is unimportant, I agree with that. I wanted to talk about the point of poetry, what it is to me, and I wanted others to talk about what it is to them. But along the way I was accused of promoting hedonism and wanting to write poems for no audience. Which brings me to another opinion of mine: that one of the most widespread and deeply conditioned things in people is the need for conflict.--It might not be important when reading someone's poems to know about their life or personal opinions, but to explain why I'm discussing poetry at all, through my opinions, it might help to get some background on why I have these opinions. If only for the sake of discussion.

When it comes to pain, we all feel pain. But the ways that people deal with pain and conflict affect the people around them. If everyone doesn't look at things deeply and seriously, the problems in life will never get better. And Everyone will never do that. Even if the solution to all of the world's problems magically appeared in a bag, that would only create the new problems of those that have a problem with the boring destiny that would bring about for people, along with much deeper and complex problems.

Civilization and society contain many realities. If people can say that poetry is simply an enjoyable hobby, that's fine. But I don't experience it that way. Nor do I think that TV or drugs or other such things are good enough ways to deal with problems.

I think the problem is society itself. That it has to be done away with. This society will never solve its problems as long as it exists. So to make it as plainly as possible, one last time, my desperate acceptance of this painful truth lies in poetry, or poetic enhancement, and what poetry motivates me to do: whether that be write a poem, or work to support someone I love, or try to help anyone I can that needs it.

they're not accusing or attacking. most have said what it is for them.
i also think most get the gist of what you're saying and accept its what you feel. you're points of what poetry is are as valid as any others. it isn't about the need for conflict it's just about what the point of writing poetry is for us.

what i see happening is you making the thread into what's the point of writing poetry for rowens. which is fair as long as we can answer from our perspective. i accept you feel what you say, see and hear, but it it's not the same for me. i can only write what it is for me. that said, i get the feeling we have to feel your pain in order to understand what your going through poetry-wise. the truth is, i'm a cynic, i can't feel other peoples pain of suffering. i accept it but i can't understand it. i don't want to know how someone suffers for their poetry (i'm not attacking you or anyone else when i say that)it's just fact. i'm selfish, i don't suffer for anything i do in or outside of poetry. if i opened up the gates to all the sufferings i've endured i'd kill myself (i really have had a lot) but they're mine, i own them and i don't want to be infected with someone elses except through a poem or in marks case, a pm writing for you is as you've described and that's fine. what is for me is also fine. for me writing poetry is just that writing poetry. a culmination of ideas, thought, experiences, and imaginings turned into some kind of readable birdshit on a page.

[rowens]

Pain itself doesn't make a better poem, or a better person. But if Leanne says that people need to learn, and become more intelligent, imaginitive and creative: that takes effort, and time. I described painful things about myself. It hurts to think. It hurts when I think about anything. I spend several hours reading and writing, going for walks and thinking; and it hurts like hell. Some people have learning disabilities and tying their shoes or brushing their teeth can be as difficult as solving a complicated math problem. So you get exhausted quick. People tell me I'm wasting time doing what I do, that I should just use drugs and sit in front of the TV, and life will be easier. I have to work hard just to live at all, and I work even harder reading, listening, thinking, writing, trying to understand and do things with my life. I agree with Leanne about people learning or trying to learn. But if what I'm doing is already hedonistic, I might as well take the advice of the people around me and dope myself up and sit and watch TV?

[billy]

you and we all rowens, we all have crosses to bear, do you have kids? do you have to support a family, had a lung removed, lost an arm or leg or both? do you have or have you had cancer? have you watched you kids be beaten had a spouse leave you with nothing? buggered by a father, abused sexually by a mother, uncle brother or aunt? do you look after a down syndrome person, a schizophrenic, autistic or mentally ill person. this list is endless. infinite, never ending. fuck me, if hawking can solve the big bang theory under the conditions he lived under, i, you, dyslexic Dan, and shoe lace sue can create a poem. i can understand someone with severe autism, or a bad mental problem being unable to write a poem, i can see someone whose a quadriplegic cabbage that's unable to write a poem, but i've seen your stuff, i've heard it and sorry but you don't as you've shown fall into those levels. while i can't and won't get in a pissing contest about who suffered more. i have, as i suspect have many, lived a life of pain. who are living in and through pain as we speak. for me while all the above things are experiences that help forge the words. they're not the only tools we have. i write happy pervert poems because i'm mentally deficient, unlike most,even after a life of hurt and pain, a happy fucker. you don't have to do anything you don't want to, unless you're a brain blot. if you're able to write the post above that you did, then you're not that restricted. what i see in the post (not in you because, i don't know you ) is someone either crying out to be understood, someone who wants to be a martyr, or someone who has nothing better to do. the posts content and style contradict the emotion being laid down in them. and i'm on about poetry now and what it it means. all this post is is about that one question. apart from garnering experiences to use, all the above mean is someone's had a shit life. don't tell them what you do, don't show them the poetry.

[Keith]

[quote='billy' pid='107155' dateline='1353971471']
dyslexic Dan, and shoe lace sue

I so want to meet these two characters
Dyslexic Dan walked into a bra

[rowens]

Hedonism, writing poems for no audience, the issue of supply and demand in relation to poetry, the point of poetry in my life being nothing more than pleasure. These are the things I'm responding to by talking about pain and troubles. No matter how I dress it up, saying everything is poetry makes me a hedonist, despite how little pleasure I get out of it or anything else. My philosophy of poetry is nothing but self gratification. I'm responding to this.

I'm not arguing with you, Billy. I'm not telling you about pain for the sake of trying to make anyone say or think anything about pain except in relation to the subjects above. Everyone else here has said that poetry doesn't need to have a point. And nobody's arguing with that in this thread.

But, I did give a point to poetry. And that point was called hedonistic, and that is what I'm responding to. I'm not talking about pain for the sake of talking about pain. In my first two posts, I gave my point that pain motivated my poetry in many ways. Since then I've been talking about pain for the purpose of showing how I don't see anything hedonistic about it.

[billy]

no argument here. then write poetry in a journal and enjoy them by yourself at your own leisure. wouldn't that be the hedonistic thing to do?

[rowens]

I'll get back to the poetry in a moment.

I think the main problem with our responses is that I'm talking to mulitiple people at once, and some of my responses to something Leanne said are being mistaken for responses to something Billy said. Even if I give a quote from somebody, I'm still talking to more than one person in the replies.

Another problem is that for some reason I don't like Leanne thinking of me as a hedonist. I don't know exactly why. Even if I was a hedonist, it's ok with Billy. And that's a good thing. If I was, I'd be fine with it, no matter what Leanne says. Though I don't think I am.

I think I like Billy and Leanne a great deal. And I want them to understand what I'm saying to them. Even if they don't like what I'm saying. If I got pleasure out of pain or talking about pain, I'd be a hedonist in that sense. But I don't. At least not the pain I was talking about.

But I have to admit, I wouldn't write poetry very much at all if it wasn't for this kind of pain. I'd be in the place I want to be, still with the person I want to be with, doing things I did during the happiest time of my life. That's what gives me pleasure. And when I did write poetry, it would be very different than the poetry I currently write.