There is a cadence of ideas and feelings too, right?, like in so-called free verse. Even if the rhythm of the actual words and lines are all over the place, or even if the subject matter seems to be all over the place: you can still try to craft meaning and experience itself. That's what I've tried to do many times. People might not like that I do that, or wonder why I'd want to do that. But it's what I prefer to do. Instead of concentrating on the proper grammar, or the direct use of crafting through meter and rhyme and even common sense logic, I like to use "feeling tone" rhythms of, say, verbose confusion then cliched obviousness, or racist redneck slang then African American slang, or very personal lines stuck in with very impersonal subjects and situations. I know these methods are bound to fail many times, but that's part of the enjoyment for me. Another example, if I throw in a very personal comment in a poem that hasn't the space or the information to show exactly what I'm alluding to: the point of it is simply to create a tone of being secretive or desperate, or of having the writer consider why I'd throw such a line in to the context of the poem. And in that case, while I might be the poet and the speaker in the poem, I'm still creating me-the speaker as a kind of double of me that lives in the poem. And that's why I've often told people, when discussing their poems and my poems, that I take it all as forming realities. But there is always that difference; I might write a biographical poem that says "I going to go to the store", but I would never actually say that: I'd say, "I'm gonna go to the store...", or, "I'm goin' to the store..."
The point of all this being that every element of a poem is obsessively considered by me, whether I'm supposed to be writing one, or giving a critique. And so these discussion threads are very important, and the personal ideas of the writer are naturally useful for reading their poems. Because no one here is going to tell you that you have to write poems only in certain ways, or critique in certain ways as long as you're making a genuine effort. Though there are sites online where they expect you to revise all your poems to their liking, and not say a word about your ideas and feelings about what you're trying to do. But I find it helpful to be able to discuss the critiques and the poems, and all the ideas and opinions of anyone that's taking part in the site. On some sites, there is no constructive critique, and on some there's no open discussion. This site is important because in depth discussions of poetry and poetry criticism are allowed and encouraged.
Posts: 5,057
Threads: 1,075
Joined: Dec 2009
11-20-2012, 09:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-20-2012, 12:22 PM by billy.)
(11-19-2012, 10:42 PM)Rose Love Wrote: I agree about the critique part. I may or may not have something to say that's not positive about someone's poem, but I am easily influenced by others comments too and I think "Hmmm...so-and-so didn't mention this thing, so I guess it's not worth me mentioning it either." Or "So-and-so didn't find any issues with this poem, so this thing bothering me must be my imagination." Usually I start out reading a poem and by the time I get to the end, I can't think even where to begin or how, or if I even should, especially if things I saw nobody else even cared about. the odds sare more likely to be that they didn't see through your eyes  it precisely those things we should mention, feedback would be crap if we all see the same thing and all leave the same thing out.
Quote:In language (particularly spelling and grammar), I'm a perfectionist, but through my work I learned that everyone else hates a perfectionist, so I leave people alone and let them write how they will (unless I'm doing my job). If I have something positive to say, or something, anything that is not trying to correct someone else's writing/English, then I will.
often a poem without grammar is really easy to spot....it has no grammar, like wise a poem with bad grammar is also easy to spot..correct, because it has bad grammar. on the one hand you can give thoughts as to why the no grammar poem works or doesn't work, on the other, not all of use are good at grammar so it's often a help when bad grammar is pointed out, i'm always thankful for the grammar police
Quote:Concerning "meter" and "refrains"--I don't know about them either. For me there is rhythm and there is rhyme. I guess I learned about meter a million years ago in school, but I haven't a clue... You can either write poetry "by-the-book" or you can write it by your own heart. It's probably best to learn to do both. I find writing "by-the-book" doesn't really serve the main purpose I write poetry for (therapy and processing of emotions), but writing it "by-the-book" can be fun and challenging, if I get the extra time to do that.
like everything else, we learn. i'm not too good at meter but i'm better after posting her for a while. we also have some instructional posts that explain many of meters in's and out's. (check the novice forums and elsewhere. not forgetting poetry practice, which lays down the metric law for a given form.)
Quote:Maybe it's better not to start out thinking about meter? But you do need to get a feeling for rhythm and the rhythm of the words as you put them together in the lines and stanzas. That's reflected mostly by deliberately choosing words with the right amount of syllables so the lines and stanza flows smoothly with cadence when you read it.
it's a good start. though if you're like me you'll come up against the meter wall that dictates certain syllable formations don't work while others will  . rhythm is i think, one of the best methods with it you shouldn't go far wrong,
Posts: 2,354
Threads: 229
Joined: Oct 2010
(11-19-2012, 10:42 PM)Rose Love Wrote: In language (particularly spelling and grammar), I'm a perfectionist, but through my work I learned that everyone else hates a perfectionist, so I leave people alone and let them write how they will (unless I'm doing my job). If I have something positive to say, or something, anything that is not trying to correct someone else's writing/English, then I will.
Rose, as far as this goes, I don't mind a perfectionist at all. My spelling is US not UK, but grammar is a constant. Nitpick my poems to your heart's content. I sometimes leave end punctuation off when I enjamb and don't want a full stop. Beyond that they're mistakes. I'm working on grammar more this year. So, don't feel you need to spare my feelings. I want the poetry always as perfect as it can be.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
Posts: 2,354
Threads: 229
Joined: Oct 2010
General additional question on this. When I post revisions I post them in the same thread they originally came in this may have 2 comments or 20 comments. Sometimes these slip down the page and I'm not sure if it's because they're awful or because they look like they've been commented on fully.
Okay now the question: Should we simply do revisions (for the poems that are more than say a month old) in a new thread and provide a link to the original? So, that it's more obvious that it's a new thing. I could go either way. I've seen it done both ways on other sites.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
Posts: 1,568
Threads: 317
Joined: Jun 2011
I love to see revisions listed in the same post as the original piece so that I can watch the editing process unfold and, in doing so, find out more about the writer's thought processes. Having said that, I do think it's a crying shame when revised poems aren't commented on further -- I don't think that's anyone's fault, because as you say it might already look like it's been commented on enough (when is enough? I'd love to think that if there's something left to say, it would be said no matter how many have gone before... but that's probably not realistic). I do know that changing the original post doesn't move the thread back up the order -- to do this you need to put a comment on it. I wonder if we might start adding a comment like "revised (date) -- please comment on edited version"?
It could be worse
Posts: 2,354
Threads: 229
Joined: Oct 2010
I sort of do that one bump for the edited version thing now. It's hard to get a revision noticed on page 15. Though, I will say that I agree with penguin (ray) and you in that I find the idea of bumping for other reasons distasteful. I'd rather the poem slipped into oblivion for another 6 months between rewrites than continue to bump it up the forum.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
Posts: 1,568
Threads: 317
Joined: Jun 2011
Totally -- but bumping for further workshopping, rather than just soliciting comments, is different in my mind. I know that if I've commented on a poem, I genuinely love to know if the writer has revised it and I'm always interested, but sometimes it's easy to miss. I'd say that bumping revisions is a fair thing for all concerned, since once I've commented I feel a little bit like I'm part of the process and like to stay in the loop.
It could be worse
Posts: 2,354
Threads: 229
Joined: Oct 2010
Knowing me, I'd probably just wait till I made it to a different round of revisions (a few months down the road) and try again then, but I do see where you're coming from. I also become invested in the poem when I critique.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
Posts: 342
Threads: 49
Joined: Sep 2011
(11-21-2012, 07:52 AM)Leanne Wrote: I wonder if we might start adding a comment like "revised (date) -- please comment on edited version"?
I think that is a great idea. Might even consider editing the title and bumping with some explanation of the changes . . .
Oh yeah, I forgot what I was going to post 
I have a hard time with critique for various reasons, but I am learning something that is helping me a lot.
When I post a poem, I feel that almost everyone that is reading it is so far past my skill level that it become more of a mentor/pupil mode for me- so I imagine that before I can give crit, I must be at least a peer of the poet . . . not true.
My little cousin is a complete and total retard but he can write some of the most wonderful music I have ever heard- so in redneck logic that means 'even a blind hog can stumble upon an acorn from time to time.'
I may never help anyone, but then again, maybe I will . . .
Posts: 5,057
Threads: 1,075
Joined: Dec 2009
11-21-2012, 09:33 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2012, 05:27 PM by billy.)
if i do a revision i usually let it be known in a post so as to bump it.
i do prefer the revision in the same thread ( alongside the original in the first post) as it's easy to see my last bits of feedback.
sometimes i miss the original and get to the poem at the 2nd or 3rd edit. if that happens i just leave feedback on the latest edit.
my thoughts on bumping is this. if you post a poem in the feedback forums you do so for feedback not praise. if after a couple of days there's no feedback then either delete the post and post it again or bump it. i don't think poems that have had a fair amount of feedback be bumped except for showing any edits that have been done.
Posts: 1,568
Threads: 317
Joined: Jun 2011
You never know what's going to help someone. Sometimes we learn by the questions that we're asked -- "why did you use that word?", "what sort of image were you going for there?" etc. Every reader has something to offer.
I keep repeating myself, but I feel I should say it again anyway: I don't write for poets. I write for people.
I want to know what people think. If those people happen to be poets, well and good -- but I don't care one way or the other.
It could be worse
I've revised a few of my poems on here in the past without bumping them. I just didn't feel like discussing them any more, unless someone just happened to come across them.
Posts: 5,057
Threads: 1,075
Joined: Dec 2009
if i've done an edit based on people's input i like to let them know, it's like a thank you 
Posts: 522
Threads: 48
Joined: Nov 2012
This is quite likely a daft idea, because of my blatant lack of computor know how, but would it work if you had revised board for people to post a re-worked poem (they could copy the original post in). I agree with leanne about enjoying following up on poems I have offered comments on....but I often forget what my previous posts were. I find it really adds to my interest and also I feel i'm learning a lot by re-visiting a poem i've commented on to read the remarks of others. Being able to keep track of revision projects would be interesting and it seams like that not many people actually post the revised work (self included in this comment...must get my act together), but perhaps this is just because i'm not re-finding them.
Alternativly one of the other sites i was looking at has a view your posts button and if any poem you have either posted or commented on has been added to it is flagged up.
Although I guess you guys on the administration team would be swamped with flagged items..so maybe not a good idea.
Nb. non of the above is in any way a negitive about the site, I'm just voicing some ideas.
Posts: 1,568
Threads: 317
Joined: Jun 2011
11-27-2012, 06:24 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-27-2012, 07:03 AM by Leanne.)
It's not a bad idea, only I think to be thorough there'd have to be a copying of the entire original thread, with initial comments, so that people could really keep track of what's been said and done. In a workshop, I think the comments are often just as important as the poem. It could be done but moving threads would require mod intervention -- which is not out of the question, we're only a message away.
It could be worse
Posts: 2,354
Threads: 229
Joined: Oct 2010
Well, I'm trying out the new way we talked about titling revision threads. I think it's more visible. I even pulled one back from two years ago (it's the first time I've been able to even think of a plausible rewrite).
So, maybe that method of titling the thread makes sense.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
Posts: 342
Threads: 49
Joined: Sep 2011
I would suggest though, that members Keep the title readable . . . if everyone has 'Rev XX-XX-2012 My poem' then we won't be able to tell one poem from the other on the latest threads sidebar.
'REV 12-24-2012 M . . .'
'REV 11-01-2011 M . . .'
. . . Makes more sense to me to have 'My Poem [Rev d-a-te]'
and then just bump the poem when you revise and edit the title to reflect the correct date.
Posts: 2,354
Threads: 229
Joined: Oct 2010
I updated to that convention Mark. Does it look better for my two threads in serious?
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
Posts: 342
Threads: 49
Joined: Sep 2011
I think so.
Its all jmo, Todd. The OP owns the thread and can name it whatever they like
Posts: 5,057
Threads: 1,075
Joined: Dec 2009
(11-27-2012, 06:10 AM)cidermaid Wrote: This is quite likely a daft idea, because of my blatant lack of computor know how, but would it work if you had revised board for people to post a re-worked poem (they could copy the original post in). I agree with leanne about enjoying following up on poems I have offered comments on....but I often forget what my previous posts were. I find it really adds to my interest and also I feel i'm learning a lot by re-visiting a poem i've commented on to read the remarks of others. Being able to keep track of revision projects would be interesting and it seams like that not many people actually post the revised work (self included in this comment...must get my act together), but perhaps this is just because i'm not re-finding them.
Alternativly one of the other sites i was looking at has a view your posts button and if any poem you have either posted or commented on has been added to it is flagged up.
Although I guess you guys on the administration team would be swamped with flagged items..so maybe not a good idea.
Nb. non of the above is in any way a negitive about the site, I'm just voicing some ideas. we love people voicing ideas
there in the same thread as an original normally so that if you posted a reply you can see what you said previously.
i suppose it could work if people left a link to an original poem or the last revision but what if the poems been worked so hard it has 4 or 8 revisions?
the other problem is our already abundance of different forums. we're always open to suggestions though. we have a polls forum and a suggestion forum if you want to put something forward.
|
