Symbolism

[Aish]

I've been mulling over posting a query regarding symbolism in daily life and especially poetic endeavors, but I just haven't decided what I want it to look like and before I knew it I had thought about it for over a month with zero manifestations.

So, here is the basic thought I have: symbolism and archetypes are so ingrained into us as individuals, groups, and societies that we respond to them on an instinctual level and may not have a conscious thought about why we respond or how we respond. It is part conditioning and part inherent.

As poets, have you been introspective enough to look at the symbolism you spill onto the page and ask yourself why you chose to express yourself in that manner? Are you even aware of it?

As readers, have you ever bothered to connect the dots, or do you stick with the mechanics of rhyme, meter, grammar, punctuation, and surface appeal?


A while back I replied to a piece Jack wrote titled 'The Passion of the Wife'. What stood out to me and how I internalized it as a reader were colored by my gender, life experiences, people who have impacted my life, and background with religious, social, and individual archetypes and semiotics. As always the reader completes the process, and I know my reaction was far from what Jack was relating when he wrote it. People tend to use descriptions and objects that are not only generally tied together, but express images and emotions that hint at the undercurrent of shared humanity. Have any of you ever recognized or wondered about why those associations exist in the first place?

[Indie]

In general, as humans, we like to be able to categorise things. It's easy on the brain. It's why stereotypes and universal symbolism exists, as well as the symbolism important to various cultures. We're often conditioned by our culture/society, experiences and lifestyles, and spiritual beliefs among other things, as well as history. We can say otherwise, but history (both personal, national and global) has a big baring on how we see and relate to the world. Traditions are ingrained in the collective psyche whether we're aware of it or not, and regardless if we choose a different path, or rebel from society/religion etc, those traditions and ideas are still there beneath the surface.

[billy]

i was expecting there to be a glut of symbolic answers which i could garner something from, looks like indie's it then.

I agree that symbolism and archetypes are so ingrained. we're bombarded with them almost every hour of the day; through media, through life, through others. and we are what we eat (metaphorically speaking.) a child whose taught the blacks are niggers and really nasty people will until it's capable of independent thought believe it to be true. should the child write a poem about blacks under such an upbringing it may not be a very kind poem.

That said, i'm of a mind that while we've been immersed in symbolism all our lives, we become more discerning the older and more experienced we get. we know that blacks aren't any better or worse than any other race. we decide that while we may believe in god, he's one of our making; though many will still follow the archetypal gods, mothers, fathers, love, hate and other physical or emotional aspect of symbolism. how many love poems are almost exact. how many cutting poems. all genre of poetry has a preponderance to be of a likeness, and why not. we all live in the same world. we all have a supposedly five levels of consciousness, and the same five levels of friendship (it could be seven; i'm just winging it here ) i think poets in general write in a likeness of one another because all experiences in the modern world are now shared, responses are expected. it's the good poet that say; "hang on, all i'm doing it copying what everyone else is doing." they resalise that while we all go through the same life memes we don't always see, or deal with them the same way. (despite what cnn tell us, despite what the backslapping "that's simply gorgeous" crowd of bottom patting poetry forums tell us) most poeat write the same old shite; sometimes sybolic, because they see others getting patted on the back for it.

the good or improving poet who wants to write originally uses the same symbolism to say it differentlt, at times it's the good poets who create the symbolism of others. (just look at the cliche that abounds in poetry)

As readers, have you ever bothered to connect the dots, or do you stick with the mechanics of rhyme, meter, grammar, punctuation, and surface appeal?

both. as a reader i look for the pot of gold the poem's holding, i don't always find it though. Sometimes it's because i'm as thick as two short planks and my own symbolisms are the trees that stop me seeing the poets forest. (that actually sounds a little bit sexy doesn't it ) at other times the poet just isn't conveying what their own symbolisms mean; they don't only make it hard for the dots to be joined together, they remove them completely...the bastards.

I love it when i have to stop a while and think and then get a "eureka you clever bastard" moment and all the vague symbols come together in a picture. often it only take for me to recognise one symbol, and all the rest unfold, even the one's that are new to me.

that's all well and good but it's no better a thrill that reading a good solid piece of verse. it's apples and oranges...and bananas. a different genre, and different style, a different concept. there just that, different.

I know my reaction was far from what Jack was relating when he wrote it. People tend to use descriptions and objects that are not only generally tied together, but express images and emotions that hint at the undercurrent of shared humanity. Have any of you ever recognized or wondered about why those associations exist in the first place?

I've often seen things in poetry that the poet never meant, that really had nothing to do with their poem. that's because i'm not seeing it with their eyes, i'm seeing it with mine. that my associations exist and cloud or tint the glasses i wear isn't something i question. why should i It's my POV were i to question it i'd be questioning it using other peoples symbolisms.

Many times i've left a reply to a poem extolling why i like it and how i see little or nothing wring with it (and try to give a reason why). someone then comes along and leaves feedback that points out many things which could be done in an edit. I may even ask myself how didn't i see that; but you know what? I didn't see it because i'm me. i'm not them. because i see now that something needs changing, it doesn't make what i saw any less. i've never wondered or want to about what we share as humans or why certain connections exist. all i need to know is who i am. I only need to see where i'm going

[Indie]

Many times i've left a reply to a poem extolling why i like it and how i see little or nothing wring with it (and try to give a reason why). someone then comes along and leaves feedback that points out many things which could be done in an edit. I may even ask myself how didn't i see that; but you know what? I didn't see it because i'm me. i'm not them. because i see now that something needs changing, it doesn't make what i saw any less. i've never wondered or want to about what we share as humans or why certain connections exist. all i need to know is who i am. I only need to see where i'm going

I agree, there have been times when I've loved a poem and have nothing in the way of critique to offer, and at other times I see people fawning all over a poem and I'll be the lone person to go hey, I can see x,y and z here that you can improve on, but in saying that some people aim to find fault in work while others would tell you shit looked awesome as conceptual art. The point is to be objective as possible, and offer an honest opinion unclouded by love or hate.

And cliches... yeah we're all guilty, but it truly astounds me how many writers don't even realise they're using them and sound just like so many other writers out there (newbs mostly) but even the more experienced writers fall into the cliche trap without thinking about it. Looping back to what I said above, cliches and universal symbolism are easy on the brain. I'm not sure art should be

[billy]

unlike good poets, i'm unable to break out of my own symbolisms. maybe that's what defines a good poet; the fact they can generate new symbolisms

[Leanne]

When we write a poem, we're expressing the world (or part thereof) as we see it -- there are a million poems out there that say nothing more to me than "the writer sees the world as he/she has been brought up to see it and never questions". For regurgitators of pop culture, that's fine -- spouting cliches and sticking to formula will guarantee you a reasonable audience that conforms nicely to the status quo.

However, for a poet, an artist, it is simply not good enough to unconsciously parrot his/her environment and cultural influences. Good poets must be aware of the significance of every word, its connotations and the possibility of multiple shadings/effects. Single reading/single meaning "poems" are for the simple and easily pleased.

[billy]

can these things, this breaking out be taught, we call poetry a craft; and agree that it is, but aren't some of us fated for the stereotypical symbolistic trash pile? i do feel guilty a little because i love a good simple poem

[Leanne]

Yes, they can. You just have to pay attention and question everything.

It takes time though, and every now and then a cliche slips in without you noticing -- that's why workshops are invaluable, they keep us on our toes.

There is a big difference between "simple" and "simplistic". I am a massive fan of "deceptively simple" poems.

[billy]

deceptively simple,

and cliche isn't the only problem that plagues me and others.
i often write a poem because i presume it has to be done that way, and it never has to be done anyway does it. of course we need knowledge before we can abuse it but the box is often just another symbol we adhere to. the reverse of the coin is that sometimes we stray so far away from the box that we lose sight of it and everyone in it; and make them lose site of us.

[Leanne]

Learn the rules, then break them

Read as widely as possible to know what has been done before, and to get ideas for what could be done in the future. There is no better way to learn than to immerse yourself in poetry.

[billy]

do we forget the old symbolisms or just use a sprinkling. i'd like to think we can manufacture them, thyough they have to be near enough so as to let the reader in on the meanings.

[Leanne]

All new and unfamiliar makes things difficult for the reader -- our choices must have a touch of the familiar somewhere about them, a handle or a key for the reader to make sense of the piece.

Entirely personal symbols that are "in-jokes" for the writer also make crap poems.

[Todd]

Let's just say away from Victorian flower meaning poems...that's all I ask.

[Leanne]

Let's just say away from Victorian flower meaning poems...that's all I ask.

But how will you know when Billy's flirting with you?

[Todd]

Let's just say away from Victorian flower meaning poems...that's all I ask.

But how will you know when Billy's flirting with you?

He will be fapping (or so I've been told)

[billy]

i never flap and flirt, it's one or the other....back on track.

would poetry be a better place without cliche or bad poets with old symbolisms?
i think we needs some of them, without them how will we gauge good poetry?
not sure that's a valid reason but it sounds right. hall mark for instance; it serves a purpose of sorts
and must have been responsible for bringing some people to poetry, even with some of tired symbolisms it uses.

[Leanne]

Going through my old poems has been interesting (well, interesting to me anyway) as I have been reading them from a greater distance, which allows a more critical viewpoint. I've found a few more dominant symbols and spent a lot of time analysing why I have used them. The most dominant are the desert, reptiles (especially lizards) and the ocean. If I presented them out of context, anyone would think I was a cold, heartless, merciless type who would do my best to make you suffer... so, fairly accurate I guess!

[serge gurkski]

Leanne, the presumably merciless, felt inclined to impress me, us, who? by sharing her somewhat wondrous prose with us. If I presented them out of context, anyone would think I was a cold, heartless, merciless type who would do my best to make you suffer... so, fairly accurate I guess!

Had to laugh out loud.

I like both (imagine that!): lizards and deserts (imagining the latter from my couch with a fresh and refreshing drink in my (wait) right hand.
You lost me comes it to meditating over these 2 symbols (right?). I don't get it. Maybe still not drunk enough here! Working on it to finally experience the pain you seem to need to inflict on whosoever reads you? Is that your master plan? ;-)

cheers
serge

[Leanne]

Serge, I expect neither my prose nor poems to impress anyone

One of the exercises I do with my students is to have them choose symbols that represent themselves - they are required to go beyond the very obvious (eg. a baseball bat if they like baseball is rubbish) and it does take a large amount of introspection. It isn't an easy exercise but it results in a better understanding of themselves and also a greater ability to interpret an appreciate symbolism in all texts.

I think creators of any kind of text need to be aware that the reader will find some kind of symbolic meaning, whether it's what we intend or not. There are few things less interesting to me as a reader than to find a lack of individuality or imagination on a figurative level.

[serge gurkski]

Serge, I expect neither my prose nor poems to impress anyone

One of the exercises I do with my students is to have them choose symbols that represent themselves - they are required to go beyond the very obvious (eg. a baseball bat if they like baseball is rubbish) and it does take a large amount of introspection. It isn't an easy exercise but it results in a better understanding of themselves and also a greater ability to interpret an appreciate symbolism in all texts.

I think creators of any kind of text need to be aware that the reader will find some kind of symbolic meaning, whether it's what we intend or not. There are few things less interesting to me as a reader than to find a lack of individuality or imagination on a figurative level.

Hi Leanne, my comm was tic. ;-)

---

I had two cats (they rather had me ;-) ) sadly both died of cancer. A friend "has" a Gecko and I considered seriously to get me one too.
But decided against it bc in order to get what the lizard would be trying tell me I d have to be on ... uhm illegal stuff (keyword: Castaneda) while cats I get even when sober. ,-)