Snow.....

[billy]

snow clouds in blue skies
hard ground in the rice paddy--
time to daydream

[Erthona]

How about making the second line reflect the first...color wise that is.

snow cloud in blue sky
rice paddy in cobalt pond
a time to daydream

I think "cobalt" can act as the kireji.

Just a thought.

Dale

[billy]

wouldn't it have to be the last word in the line to act as the cut?
though i do like the line.

[Erthona]

Technically no. That is a misconception, at least in terms of Japanese poetry. I grabbed this from Wiki as it alludes to this idea that it can be placed in different spots, although it is most commonly used at the end of a line.

"A large number of hokku, including many of those by Bashō, end with either -keri, an exclamatory auxiliary verb, or the exclamatory particle kana, both of which initiate such a circular pattern. Placed elsewhere in the verse, a kireji performs the paradoxical function of both cutting and joining; it not only cuts the ku into two parts, but also establishes a correspondence between the two images it separates, implying that the latter represents the poetic essence (本意 hon'i) of the former,[9] creating two centres and often generating an implicit comparison, equation, or contrast between the two separate elements"

"Cobalt" preforms both of these functions as it signals a distinction (cuts) between the darker ground water, and the water of the sky, but also joins the two image groups by equating the water of the ground to the sky, which further brings about the comparison of the cloud, to the rice paddy (the cloud floats in the sky as the paddy floats in the pond), thus it enacts a comparison of equals between the two image groups. This also alludes to the biblical saying, "as above, so below," or "on earth as it is in heaven". Also, one of the connotative features of cobalt is the aspect of heaviness, which contrast with the lightness associated with the sky, so there is also the implied division of weight or substance.
So in the truest term of the word, it acts as a fulcrum between the two images as it is generally understood in Japanese poetry, and less in the sense of a function in the form as we tend to incorrectly perceive it in English, although that is understandable as there is really nothing in English to compare it to, partly owed to the extreme density of the Japanese language due to their long isolation, and the codification of historical and cultural features within the language.

Of course I am somewhat iconoclastic in terms of what forms (in my mind) occur naturally in English, and therefore am not a fan of trying to import forms that do not really make sense in terms of how the language is structured. I do think such forms as this can be valid teaching tools as they teach brevity within a very simple and non-demanding form, beyond that I think they are very limited, and cannot approach what they are capable of in Japanese.


Dale

[billy]

i agree that it could work in the japanese form because it was basically a single line of poetry.
in the english translations it makes the act much harder. it's one of the reasons for the syl controversy.
in the japanese version it comes at the end of a metrical line of which there are 3. the three metrical lines makes up into one single vrticle line. imagine;

s
n
o
w

c
l
o
u
s

i
n

b
l
u
e

s
k
i
e
s

hard ground in the rice
p
a
d
d
y-- The cut would be in the middle of the the line

t
i
m
e

to daydream

in the english form it usually comes at the end of line 1 or 2.

[Todd]

I like the haiku, but mostly I'm learning a lot from the discussion. I've just started reading about Haiku more and your joint discussion on the kireji is very helpful.

Thanks

[Erthona]

Billy makes a very valid point, in fact one I have often harped on, in Japanese the haiku is as much a visual art form as it is a literary one. This visual representation is of course totally lost in English, nor should it be confused with the pseudo-poetic form we call concrete poetry. How does a person understand specific concepts of a foreign art form, when they are the product of a culture where individuality is as highly regarded, as it is denigrated in the other? The closest I've ever heard in terms of "on" in English was Allen Ginsburg's description of a phrase in his poetry, which he described as being one breath long. A breath in this instance being the unobstructed release of "spirit" that causes the vocal structure to resonate with it's imprint. I would wager few "poets" have even an inkling about what he was talking, yet if he had been Japanese, even the none poets would immediately comprehend what he was talking about. Can we even begin to understand what it is like to write to an audience where so much is already understood. There is a cultural intimacy that exists, that we are lucky to develop anything close to it with maybe one individual: someone who knows us so well they can finish our sentences for us. This occurs for them not just on a linguistic level, but also on a symbolic level in both art and writing, as well as most areas that if you ask 10 English speakers to define such, you would get 10 different definitions.

But back to topic, as Billy rightly points out, any discussion of the "kireji" must also include it's effects on the visual aspect of the poem, yet this is never discussed because in English we have no way to begin to represent this, even if we understood the grosser aspects of this idea. In English we can talk about the dynamic tension (although we do so more in relation to prose) between two opposing aspects, in such an example the kireji is both the fulcrum and that which can tip the balance one way or the other. Having this power, it also has the power to create balance, or a better term in discussing haiku would be harmony. Through balancing opposing tension, one gives rise to harmony. At least in practice, in the West, this is a foreign concept to us. We do not think in terms of harmony, we think in terms of subduing and bending a thing to our will. We define good and bad in terms of the effects on us, as an individual, personally. We do not see things systemically, nor do we think in terms of working towards systemic balance, and yet, that is what I believe the kireji is basically about. Still, viscerally I can only grasp this as if it were dualities we were discussing, which in the West are always opposing forces, not complementary ones.
So, if one were serious about "haiku" in English, I think one would have to define kireji in terms of what occupies a similar place within our ideology because using the Japanese definition, even if we could understand it, would make no more sense to us than do suicide bombers, which is to say, we might grasp it to some degree intellectually, but it could never speak to us in a meaningful way. Of course the "on" would need to be redefined in a similar way. Doing so would of course take the haiku form out of it's current simplistic shape, which is of course it's primary attraction for many people, as it is easily mastered, requiring no prerequisite foundation in poetics, or any obvious talent, as all one has to do is create three lines of 5-7-5 syllables. It is hard to imagine any kind of defined form that would be much easier than that. I think it is admirable to study any of the forms, ultimately I think all the pseudo-scholarship about haiku is just an attempt to legitimize an overall simplistic form that could be taught to a third graders, along with such other dubious forms as concrete poetry and acrostic, none of which require an iota of poetic talent. But then I am a bent and misshapen thing, and this is probably just a natural outflow of my inherent cynicism.

Dale

[billy]

I think it's beauty is it's simplicity, though i suspect the japanese original carries much more. as a starting point for newb poets i think it's a must do for the very reason dale stated. it's easy to do and easy to see where it was done wrong in terms of what should be in it. it's easy to get a general hang of and makes a stepping stone to training onself to be original. to be precise and to use every word.

i'll move this thread over to discussion so others can join in if they've a mind too.

[Erthona]

Marriage does to passion what moving a thread into Poetry Discussion does to discussions.

[Leanne]

Makes it legal?

[Erthona]

No, ends it

excerpts (of a dubious nature) on haiku I made elsewhere, should anyone wish to read it (somewhat repetitious).
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"I am of the opinion, and this is echoed by a fairly famous Japanese poet known for his sublime Haiku (written in Japanese), that the form does not translate at all to use in English because of the extreme difference between, not only the two languages, but between the extremity of worldview of the two cultures. So as far as I am concerned, if it is written in English it is not a Haiku anyway. We do have several similar forms in English, although not a similar poetic form: apothegm, aphorism, proverb, or adage. In English poetry the closes we have would probably be the pastoral ode, or the meditative poem. English, at least in my opinion, as a general rule, does not lend itself to short poems. Shorter English forms may be of a witty or humorous nature, but rarely are they used for serious contemplation of the nature or the natural world. Japanese, probably due in part to its isolation, small land mass, and an anti-iconoclastic history developed a brief language because the primary interchange was in the form of an order from a superior to an inferior. Long discourse was not generally needed, nor often engaged in. Freedom was not allowed even for those at the top of the food chain. However in English, the idea of freedom, primarily as a function of the give and take between the Druid religion and the numerous petty chieftains, who were less dictators and more arbitrators in council is endemic. Such councils tended towards the bellicose, rather than the abbreviated. The progenitors of the English language/race were the polar opposite of the tightly wound, ritual encumbered Japanese. I suspect beyond land size and awareness of other peoples by way of sea travel (as well as the associated history), the fact that one can come to a slower boil drinking (quick) mead (3 to 6% alcohol) as opposed to sake (18–20% alcohol) might have also had something to do with it, as alcohol generally has had some impact in the historical development of the race."
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"I think I have seen what I would consider 3 decent examples, not great mind you, and two of them were translations from the Japanese. The poet I talked about above was the friend of, an maybe the brother-in-law, of a comparative lit professor I worked with. He, the professor, was fluent in both English and Japanese as he was an army brat/ or maybe his parents were in the diplomatic corp in Japan. Regardless, he grew up bi-lingual, and dual cultural, so he was a bit of an expert on Japan himself. He told me one time, although in more depth, that we (westerners) would never understand the Japanese because their mind set was was so incredibly alien to ours. One of the things he said that really caught my attention was that we thought we were friends with the Japanese. He said the truth was that the Japanese did not even consider us human, let alone equals. They viewed us like a big dog that had them temporarily penned, but if we ever let them up, they would destroy us completely. They view all of the other races as inferior to them, not even really human, which is how they justify the brutality they exhibited in WWII. The rest of Asia is still incredibly afraid of them. This is one reason they are always part of the US negotiations with North Korea. The rest of Asia is afraid we will let them out of their obligation to not arm. The only reason they have not, obviously rearmed is because they value their word, regardless of who it was given to, even a dog, above everything else. Their word is their honor, and their honor defines them. One of the funny things is when people think (because they play like it, to use as a type of leverage in business negotiations) we have somehow dishonored them. How can a dog offend you? When in the US, they act in a way that is in their best interest, they will appear to demean themselves, but for a people who will ritually saw themselves in half because they have dishonored themselves, no behavior is demeaning if it upholds honor. Spend some time around the pacific rim and you will see them act quite differently. Being from this country, we would not believe that they could get away with such arrogant and demanding behavior. Heck I thought Americans were bad. They don't hold a candle to the Japanese, plus generally they have the excuse of being drunk. They view others without any empathy. Non-Japanese have value to them, only by what they can get from them, but they have no inherent value in themselves. In fact, saying they value us as dogs is probably being to generous, more like wild animals.
Senryū, in terms of focus, I suppose so as it is less restrictive, but as it is also based on 17 morae, which is a time based distinction rather than a syllabic one, there is really no comparison in form between what is written in English and what is written in Japanese. Just so I was sure I was talking accurately, I looked morae up on dictionary.com. I find the definition humorous, make of it what you will:
"the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short sound or syllable."
"the ordinary or normal short sound"?
eh-aah-ooh-aah-aah!
Bing bang, wa-da-da-da-bing bang,
eh-aah-ooh-aah-aah!
Who knew the chipmunks Senryū?
Even the translations make little sense:
The robber,
when I catch,
my own son
--Senryū Karai
This points out one of the other distinctions of Japanese culture, everyone has a shared referential perspective. That is one or two words can refer to a much larger commonly held experience, or historical occurrence. Whether everyone in Japan experiences their father the same way is irrelevant, they have an acknowledged and shared archetype of what it should be.
This idea comes from Star Trek. In English, if using the same ideology to convey meaning, we might say.
"Gilgamesh-Enkidu"
To convey deep friendship.
Or
"Paul: the road"
To convey the idea of a religious experience or epiphany
Or
"Me and Paul"
as a warning to not leave your dope in your hotel room
With that kind of short hand, one could say quite a lot in 17 syllables.
I think some people do try to do that in poetry, which explains why it sounds like gibberish. Or to put it in our new form
Tower of Babel (garbled)
Spenser-Archibald MacLeish (poetry)
it's Hiroshima. (disaster)"

Dale

[billy]

pretend it's stil in the haiku forum,
nice star trek reference there, in it they did come to an understanding of each others language, even if picard's alien friend died at the end .

of course it can't be the same, the language structure is too different, the mind set of each race, but it can be similar at times.

basho's pond haiku has had numerous translations and mostly they're on the same page. the main thing we got from the japanese version was a new poetry form.
many want to keep it rigid in it's 5,7,5 and many feel that's too strict. most agree with the cutting word and the season, most agree that it's a captured image. while we can't recreate it perfectly we can try and keep true to the thought of it. most who try their hand at a haiku end up with a senryu. for all it's shortness, most are never done as well as the could be. i've often seen more editing of a haiku than i have of a sonnet or other longer style poem. that's probably because they're as easy to edit as they are to write