Hercynian

[Erthona]

Hercynian* Silva from far above, I see
the mountainous terrain of Germany
and I imagine you were, as before
from those mountains you were shorn.
When Rome could only stand at your feet
pretending you it did defeat,
and there is nothing that I hold so dear
as knowing you taught Rome to fear.
Yet time it seems can defeat all foes,
just as it heals all ills and woes.
I regret I’ll never walk again,
through Black Forested, wood dense land.
Nor e’er again be battered by the Rhine,
where I left my flesh behind.
My heart there also was meant to be,
so my spirit could fly free.

©2012 ~Erthona



* Pronounced like Hey-sin-ee-ah: A primeval forest, the remains of which is the Black Forest.

The form: This is written in accentual verse with alternating lines of five and four feet ending in rhyming couplets.

[popeye]

History, Geography and Poetry lesson in sixteen lines, is there such a thing as a sixteen line sonnet? The neat formation of the words put me in mind of a Roman Legion (as depicted by Hollywood of course), nicely done Dale although I'm at a loss as to who you are, if you'll forgive my limitations. I enjoyed this one, thanks for the read, cheers!

[tectak]

Hercynian* Silva from far above I see, comma after Silva, otherwise the Hercynian Silva is far above
the mountainous terrain of Germany, full stop after Germany
and I imagine you were as before I imagine you were, as long before,
from those mountains you were shorn. when from those mountains you were shorn (not sure about shorn, did you dismiss "born" as clichéd?) Semi colon after shorn?
When Rome could only stand at your feet, drop the capital w
pretending, you, it did defeat, very unclear, but full stop after dear
and there is nothing that I hold so dear, In truth there is nothing I hold so dear
as knowing you taught Rome to fear.
Yet time it seems can defeat all foes,
just as it heals all ills and woes, full stop after woes
I regret I’ll never walk again,
through Black Forested, wood dense lands,
nor e’er again be battered by the Rhine,
where I left my flesh behind, semi colon after "behind" possibly
and my heart there too was meant to be, there,too, was
so my spirit could fly free. Not sure why heart left behind enables spirit to fly free[/b]

©2012 ~Erthona
Dale, I freely admit that I have edited this to suit my own predilictions. That is the most which a critic could be expected to do when personal observations are encapsulated by cameo emotions. If you disregarded all of my suggestions you may be truer to yourself. I do not believe that intervening critiques should change the writer's message, but you gave me carte blanche.
Best,
Tectak


* Pronounced like Hey-sin-ee-ah: A primeval forest, the remains of which is the Black Forest.

The form: This is written in accentual verse with alternating lines of five and four feet ending in rhyming couplets.

Yes. Stayed here three years ago ( Freudenstadt) with a mycological study group, MYKOLOGISCHE ARBEITSKREIS RHEIN-NECKAR or MAK. Quite incredible area but hazy recall due to imbibment of large quatities of New Wine.
Your piece is in need of some punctuation which I am loathe to start on as the simple flow does not need the prompting which precision punctuation brings.

I hate l6 but again, as the language comes across as if translated twice, it is the strange punctuation which detracts. I would prefer it if you read the whole thing over and decided which way to go. Any suggestions by me would be better received, I think, if you confirmed that you were happy with punctuation as is. This is not a cop out by me.....but it might be by you.
Overall, I am disinterested in the meter or rhyme scheme in this after but one read. This is often the case when I (and others!) find an empathy with the sentiment expressed.
Best,
Tectak
Ps. Where were you flying to?

[Erthona]

History, Geography and Poetry lesson in sixteen lines, is there such a thing as a sixteen line sonnet? The neat formation of the words put me in mind of a Roman Legion (as depicted by Hollywood of course), nicely done Dale although I'm at a loss as to who you are, if you'll forgive my limitations. I enjoyed this one, thanks for the read, cheers!

jiminy,

No one in particular, I was thinking along the lines of a petty clan chief of the Germanic tribes that inhabited that area at that time. I imagine them as being not to dissimilar to American Indians.

Thanks for the read,

Dale

---

Tom,

I made some few slight adjustments, you may now punctuate away. Punctuating my own pieces has always been a major weak point for me, so feel free.

"MYKOLOGISCHE ARBEITSKREIS RHEIN-NECKAR" Yes, that sounds pretty German. That would translate as something like: "The Rhien and Neckar rivers mycologist working group". Ist das nicht richtig mein herr?

Dale

[billy]

Hercynian* Silva from far above, I see i know what Hercyniam means but not what Silva means. i did a google and got mainly compasses.
the mountainous terrain of Germany
and I imagine you were, as before
from those mountains you were shorn. i think you just made it with before and shorn
When Rome could only stand at your feet
pretending you it did defeat, feels a bit forced to fit the rhyme
and there is nothing that I hold so dear
as knowing you taught Rome to fear.
Yet time it seems can defeat all foes,
just as it heals all ills and woes.
I regret I’ll never walk again,
through Black Forested, wood dense land.
Nor e’er again be battered by the Rhine,
where I left my flesh behind.
My heart there also was meant to be, feels forced
so my spirit could fly free.

©2012 ~Erthona



* Pronounced like Hey-sin-ee-ah: A primeval forest, the remains of which is the Black Forest.

The form: This is written in accentual verse with alternating lines of five and four feet ending in rhyming couplets.

apart from the two nits of something feeling forced i really enjoyed the piece.

Nor e’er again be battered by the Rhine, was my fave line though was it meant to rhyme with land? it feels like you really did see it in times passed as you flew over the flow was good as was the narrative. i did get an impression that you were going back to some kind of connection which for me added to the piece in making it real.

thanks for the read.

[Erthona]

From dictionary.com

sylva or silva (ˈsɪlvə)

— n , pl -vas , -vae
the trees growing in a particular region

[C17: Latin silva a wood]

----------------------------------------------------
This was an experimental form I was trying to develop. I think the anticipation of the rhyme weights it towards feeling forced even if it wouldn't normally be perceived so in another form, certainly I would agree the last rhyme you note borders on the trite and unimaginative. I think the repetition of the "feet" sound in "feet" and "defeat" maybe makes it sound forced when it is not. I think in the future if I ever revisit this form, I will try to go more with off rhyme like "shorn" and "before". Maybe even go with unrhymed lines. I think about any close rhyme will feel forced with those last two lines.
------------------------------------------------

"it feels like you really did see it in times passed as you flew over the flow was good as was the narrative. i did get an impression that you were going back to some kind of connection which for me added to the piece in making it real."

Thanks, that means a lot to me. I consider myself in the line of visionary poets, and have worked to develop that aspect of my consciousness. I consider it a form of unconsciousness extrapolation, to complex to be under ones conscious control.

Dale

[billy]

i'm a silly sausage: (or worse) normally if i look up a word, i put definition after it. this time i just typed in Silva because it was capped. i apologise for not knowing how to look something up then i remembered the word silvan.
So, the fault lays with me and not with the word.

[Erthona]

The fault lies not in the stars, but in you and me,
it seems we both with the bard do agree!

I would think it common assumption as it was capped. Had I used the "sylva" varient, I think most would recognize it for wood, and deduct that it was used as forest, but it would not be a correct usage, as that would change the name.

If you do a search on "Hercynian Silva" there are a number of articles about that forest, one of the most prominent features being it's denseness, "The impenetrable nature of the Hercynian Silva hindered the last concerted Roman foray into the forest...". "Hercynian" is probably derived from the word "oak", as there are cognates in both the Greek and the Old Celt, although it can also be related to mountains or mountainous. So if we trace it back to it's PIE (proto-indo european) meaning it probably translates as something like "mountainous oak forest". I think it holds a place in most Westerners consciousness, as it is the setting of many fairy tales such as "Hansel and Gretel", and "Little Red Ridding Hood". Just about any description of a "dark" forest (think Tolkien) in fantasy stories is based on past descriptions of "Hercynian Silva", which in a greatly reduced state became the "Black Forest", or "black-wood" (Schwarzwald). "Black" denoting the denseness of the forest, which let little light in, making the forest appear "dark", even during the day. I suspect the opening scene in "Christabel" derives from it's description. Certainly if one were going to look for old growth Oak trees, the Black Forest is where one would go.


Dale

[Philatone]

dale

Hercynian* Silva from far above, I see
the mountainous terrain of Germany...went back and forth on "mountainous", then decided I liked it. I think it's a word that reinforces its own meaning
and I imagine you were, as before
from those mountains you were shorn. ...still debating on "mountains," I think it works, though it is decidedly close to "mountainous"
When Rome could only stand at your feet...the "only" struck me as a bit excess; I see its purpose for meter, but little else
pretending you it did defeat,..understand the reason for it, but here the rhyme really dictates the line
and there is nothing that I hold so dear...personally, I wanted to know reasons why this was held so dear? why this connection for the speaker?
as knowing you taught Rome to fear....I wanted this to have an object for "to fear" and maybe a couplet to elaborate/ could give a slightly stronger transition to the "yet"
Yet time it seems can defeat all foes,
just as it heals all ills and woes.....hmm
I regret I’ll never walk again, ...not sure if the comma is needed
through Black Forested, wood dense land. ...felt a bit redundant with "Black Forested" and "wood dense," but again, could just be me
Nor e’er again be battered by the Rhine,
where I left my flesh behind.
My heart there also was meant to be,
so my spirit could fly free. ...ending strikes me as OK, but I wanted something a little fresher

©2012 ~Erthona



* Pronounced like Hey-sin-ee-ah: A primeval forest, the remains of which is the Black Forest.

The form: This is written in accentual verse with alternating lines of five and four feet ending in rhyming couplets.

I'm close to liking the piece, yet I felt as though I was lacking something at the end. Details I was curious of received little attention. Some ideas struck me as rehashed. I like the tribute to the past, I really want to like the piece more

[Erthona]

Geoff,

Your not alone. Sometimes I like it and sometimes I don't. I like the idea of the content, I am less wild about the form, especially the rhyming couplets.

Thanks for the read,

Dale

[Philatone]

agree, the idea is perfect I think, and I don't necessarily have a problem with the couplets. if anything, I feel as though I'm lacking depth. there is so much happening in the piece: the forest, the unrevealed relationship between the forest and the speaker, and the speaker's own condition, yet I didn't get enough from any of the forces to get as attached as I would have liked. it's probably a personal thing, but that is why i'm so hesitant with this work. it is something what I contend with the most in my own pieces; is there enough substance? with meter, I think it becomes slightly easier for something to be missing

again, just my own take

[Erthona]

It definitely could use more substance. I think the problem was the initial focus was not the forest, but the person, and this person just happen to reside in this forest. As we are looking at over 1500 years of time gone between then and now, I did not consider including more personal details about the person, or his environment, as they were long gone. All that remained was a spirit looking down on his former home. The idea was, not only was this once great forest gone for him, but also for us as the Black is only about 1/10th the size and lacks much of the extremely large old growth Oak.
I feel certain I will revisit this subject in a more in depth way, but without the rhyming couplets, or at least with longer lines if I do. I think I could not add much as this form is already supporting about as much as it can handle. Feel free to use the idea for yourself. I suspect there is a fair amount of information on this forest. This quote from the Wiki article points you in the right direction (link below):

"During the time of Julius Caesar, this forest blocked the advance of the Roman legions into Germania. His few statements are the most definitive. In De Bello Gallico[9] he says that the forest stretches along the Danube from the territory of the Helvetii (present-day Switzerland) to Dacia (present-day Romania). Its implied northern dimension is nine days' march. Its eastern dimension is indefinitely more than sixty days' march. The concept fascinated him, even the old tales of unicorns (which may have represented reindeer). Caesar's references to moose and aurochs and of elk without joints which leaned against trees to sleep in the endless forests of Germania, were probably later interpolations in his Commentaries. Caesar's name for the forest is the one most used: Hercynia Silva."

"Pliny the Elder, in Natural History, places the eastern regions of the Hercynium jugum, the "Hercynian mountain chain", in Pannonia (present-day Hungary) and Dacia (present-day Romania. He also gives us some dramaticised description of its composition, in which the close proximity of the forest trees causes competitive struggle among them (inter se rixantes). He mentions its gigantic oaks."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest


Dale