It just is:

[billy]

First edit; long overdue.
thanks to all who gave feedback, it was remiss of me not to do an edit before now. i alterered the ville line and took leanne's advice with some of the wordage. . i left fizz and gargoyle but did consider a change when i was editing. i'm hoping the fifth verse works a little better now (i went for constant meter). anyway, thanks for all the help via feedback.

---

It Just is


You can have inherent talent
but poetings' a craft;
bricklaying text to build a wall
will not create a raft.

To be an architect of script
or make a buttress fly.
To build an arch that's eloquent
or make a gargoyle cry.

The master builder knows which bit
to keep or crop, to lay
a thought within a sandstone block,
or stained-glass windows pray.

How we castrate syntax and sin
dictates what should have stood.
No artist' blight or grammar spin
our passion spills the blood.

With chaos, periods, and pain;
the skill to wreak at will,
with curly quill, or stick in sand;
voilà , a villanelle

From this point on, and rightly so
we etch, create and fizz.
We teach ourselves, we brood and flow
and with a little knowledge know
                                                that poetry just is...

original

You can have inherent talent

but poetings' a craft;
bricklaying text to build a wall
will not create a raft.

To be an architect of script
or make a buttress fly.
To build an arch that's eloquent
or make a gargoyle cry.

The master builder knows which bit
to keep or crop and how to lay,
a thought within a sandstone block
to let a stained-glass window pray.

How we manipulate syntax and sin
dictates-- what could or should have stood--
no casual blight or grammar call
but with passion splash our blood.

In chaos logic hides, in periods and pain
we gain the skill to wreak at will,
havoc with curly quill, or stick in sand
in sonnet triolet or ville

From this point on, and rightly so
we create, we etch, we fizz.
We teach ourselves, we brood and flow
and with a little knowledge know
that poetry just is...

i had some spare time so took granny's advice and made a poem out of a post i did in the poets discussion forum
do realise some words are repeated.

[Erthona]

This seems to start off in ballad meter, well at least by stanza two, but then the lines begin to lengthen and makes it up to at least pentameter. I would call it iambic free verse, but it doesn't stick with iambs. About the only thing consistent is the rhyme pattern. Surprising, it doesn't really seem to matter, as the changing line doesn't seem to hurt the reading at all. I guess overall it could be called accentual verse if one must label it. I only do so here as this is in the "poems for serious critique" forum. The incidental and inter-line rhyme seem to help smooth the thing out. A good example of this is,

"How we manipulate syntax and sin
dictates-- what could or should have stood--"

I think maybe one of the first three stanzas would be example enough. Mainly stanzas 2 and 3 seem a bit gratuitous, and somewhat forced. It's certainly happened to me when I get a line like "or make a gargoyle cry", and think I just have to put it in. The truth is that it is not really as cute as I think it is.

Stanzas 4 and 5 read well. I think the rhyme in 6 is a little forced, and as a result this poem doesn't end as strongly as I think it could.

This topic is fairly well covered ground, although S5 brings a bit a freshness to it, and I think is my favorite stanza out of the poem.

Dale

[billy]

thank s for taking the time to crit

when i get some free time i'll take a pop at seeing if i can tighten it up. i think you're right about the last verse.
the fizz and is also in retrospect feel too hall marky which wasn't my intention.

great to see you giving feedback.

[Erthona]

Pop...funny! You be soda am bad!

[grannyjill]

Crikey - this didn't take you long. This is a good write and as Erthona says the shifts in the poems meter don't cause any problems. There are some nice touches in most of the verses. I like gargoyle cry (but with TO make...) and stained glass window pray. I don't think you can rhyme 'stood' with 'blood' though, and I agree with you re: fizz

My original remark was driven by the very end of your 'speech' something like this -

Poetry

creativity
imagination
passion
logic and chaos
and all emotions
and an ability to transfer them
into a poem.

Poetry is nothing and everything.
It is creation.
It is a smile from god or
a scowl from hell.

Poetry is the end of your nib,
quill,
stick in the sand,
stroke of a paint brush or curve of
an original breast.
poetry
just
is.

Rewritten by you (well, you did write it!) You will have two successes on your hands.

[Leanne]

I very much like the metaphor -- it's the one that makes the most sense to me and it echoes my own views very nicely. I did cringe at the word "ville" though -- I presume you're shortening "villanelle", but "ville" is really misused and doesn't work at all for me. The bad news on that front is, I can't think of a form that rhymes there. Give it time, something may come to me...

Now, I'm afraid I'm not so dismissive of meter changes, since they really do make a difference to me Besides, it's not so hard to get it reasonably consistent -- I'm not particularly concerned about the kind of feet in each line, because in a ballad style like this you can get away with variants, but the number of feet is important in my view. Vary between stanzas -- consistently -- by all means, but not within. S4 is the worst culprits, so I'll just see what quick fixes I can come up with before breakfast.

How we manipulate syntax and sin -- this is presently 5 feet
dictates-- what could or should have stood-- 4 feet
no casual blight or grammar call -- 4 feet
but with passion splash our blood. 4 feet

If it were mine, I'd be making S4 into a nice neat 5-foot block of iambs, as it's very close now and it's kind of the middle of the poem, so here's as good a place as any.

How we manipulate syntax and sin (I also thought "how syntax we manipulate and sin" but that's just me being a smart arse)
dictates-- what could perhaps, or should have stood--
no incidental blight or grammar call
but with an artist's passion splash our blood.

I'm actually less bothered by the fizz -- it's got an acid undertone to me, and that makes it work. I'd like to see that line reworked for meter though, to:

We etch, create and fizz

Sorry, see what you get when I don't have coffee first?

[Erthona]

in sonnet triolet or other poetic swill!

villanelle also bother me, but that is because they are French, and as I think all French should be shortened...

You know you could just not shorten it.
in sonnet triolet or villanelle

still rhymes.

we gain the skill to wreak at will,
havoc with curly quill, or stick in sand
in sonnet triolet or villanelle

Dale

[Leanne]

Are you suggesting he shorten the French by half a foot, or by a whole head?

Meter-wise, I'd tend to prefer an alternative to the triolet (insert scatological remark here) -- perhaps "in sonnet, ode or villanelle"?

[Erthona]

"ode or"

That reeks!

As far as the French go, any shortening will do...have you not eaten their food?

[grannyjill]

Serious point. When I'm letting a ballad type piece simply flow...it reads pretty good to me. Then I check to see how many beats in a line I have and try to get a fairly even number - or maybe 7 then 5, the 7 then 5 type of thing. But, do you know often it then doesn't flow - my question...some words aren't like real words are they - whatjamacallits (like - the, a, or, is) they kind of get swallowed and so can't be counted as whole syllables, can they? Am I talking nonsense, here? I'm kinda thinking out loud on this.

[Erthona]

There is a ballad, and there is ballad meter. A ballad simply refers to a simple or folksy type song or poem, usually either romantic or adventurous. As ballad meter (or verse) is in iambs, and not accentual verse, all syllable are counted. Ballad meter, unlike common meter, has a looser rhyme scheme. xaxa (ballad) instead of abab (common). A stanza is composed of four lines of alternating iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter. "Amazing Grace" is a good example of ballad meter. Although some consider ballad meter and common meter the same, I think this is because common meter is a subset of ballad meter. Although there is no historical case to be made of this, usually more complex forms follow from less complex forms. My thought is that Ballad meter was present before the Norman invasion of 1066, and common meter came out of a desire for the English writers to sound more courtly, thus more formal, and more exacting. This is supported to some degree by the fact that straight iambic tends to be the syntactical reverse of common English syntax, coming as it did from the West Germanic. All Romance languages, including French have a reversed syntax to English, and so to me it makes perfect sense that writers, while still using English words, would imitate the accentual phrasing of the Norman Court language, Old French. In a sense it is no more than putting on a false accent in order to lend gravitas to ones writing. The one other point of difference between the two types is the exactness in meter. Ballad meter will generally allow half feet and the like, however, the difference in most of the literature as regards one to the other is in the rhyme scheme, not the meter. There is also the fourteener, consisting of iambic heptameter couplets, which is often associated with ballads, and confused with ballad meter. None of this is authoritative, as I am unsure that is even possible, but it does seem a consensus of sorts.

Dale

[grannyjill]

Ballad-type writing is mostly how I wrote poetry when I first began 10+ years ago. Wouldn't abab be more exacting than xaxa, not less? (I've never seen xaxa written before I am assuming that means only the alternate line rhymes)

Does reversed syntax mean (something I find myself doing quite a lot) doing Yoda-speak?
(example below)
Hunger stalks the forest-gloom
in hide, in sett, in burrow deep,
waiting out the killing chill;
lucky ones in winter sleep.


Slight shift here. I think Leanne said something about there being a certain leeway in the ballad form since it was meant to be performed and this unevenness could be ironed out by the speaker.
I used to write rubbishy stuff at work to read out when people left - Pam Ayres stuff - when people said let me read it, I would always say 'No' because I knew it wouldn't read right when they did so.

[Erthona]

"Wouldn't abab be more exacting than xaxa"

Yes, if I implied the opposite it was in error. xaxa is ballad, and abab is common.

Yoda-speak. Yes, I like that. It is when the noun-verb sequence is flipped, with all that entails. To me it is even more pronounced in iambic pentameter. It is nearly impossible to write a sonnet that holds to form, and still sound natural, that is be free of Yoda-speak. Although a language is neither either/or, to me English seems to lean more towards trochee than iambic when talking about two foot meter. I prefer the freedom of accentual verse to metered, although I am also quite fond of free iambic verse. Of course even in what is called free verse, we are mixing and matching different meters to use as a rhythmic backdrop for the content. How well one does so, speaks to the talent and skill of the poet. Unfortunately, there are few who seem aware of this, fewer still who show competence, and even fewer still able to judge that competence. Between the three major art forms, visual, musical, and poetic (excluding prose), I consider poetry the most difficult to gain competence in, and as I have made made money in all three areas, I consider myself at least somewhat competent to judge. In terms of time spent learning, I composed my first poem fifty years ago, and still feel as though I have just scratched the surface of what there is to be learned and mastered. I find it humorous that there are so many people at these larger web sites who seem to think that if they can rhyme and make it sing song they have mastered the art, and beyond that, if it comes from their heart it becomes unassailable to critique. It speaks very well that you have Leanne here, as besides having little patience with me, she has even less with those other fools Plus she is one of the better and more knowledgeable poets I have run across. Also abu nuwas who told me about this site turns out some pretty decent stuff. Of course the main thing to me is that people actually want to improve and are willing to give and get real criticism, regardless of their knowledge or skill level. I get so tired of the empty platitudes that one tends to get from sites like AP.

Dale

Dale

[billy]

in sonnet triolet or other poetic swill!

villanelle also bother me, but that is because they are French, and as I think all French should be shortened...

You know you could just not shorten it.
in sonnet triolet or villanelle

still rhymes.

we gain the skill to wreak at will,
havoc with curly quill, or stick in sand
in sonnet triolet or villanelle

Dale

first off, wow, i can't believe it got so much airplay; thanks for your rendition of prose post granny, it worked betterthan i expected.

back to Dale;
yes, i should have seen that the whole ville would fit the bill.

will def take a lo of what's been said to heart when i do an edit.
thanks for the feedback.

[billy]

I find it humorous that there are so many people at these larger web sites who seem to think that if they can rhyme and make it sing song they have mastered the art, and beyond that, if it comes from their heart it becomes unassailable to critique.

mostly every site i've visited has a majority of member like that. i think it's one of the reasons we have a lot less poets than them. we cater for those who feel uneasy with in-depth feedback, but try to keep things honest. i always mention granny jill of late to prove that we have it right. openly she admits to being less than thick skinned enough for the serious crit, even though i personally think she's a capable poet and because of this usually stays in the novice forum. it hurts to see ten day old poets posting in serious critique and then leaving the site as though they were attacked. it really does sadden me. (and then i think STFU and leave)

It speaks very well that you have Leanne here, as besides having little patience with me, she has even less with those other fools Plus she is one of the better and more knowledgeable poets I have run across.

i spotted leanne had talent when i saw her post on another site. onece she was here i got her to run the show a place like this needs someone with more knowledge than i own (which is on the negative side of any scale). she played/plays a large part in the core of how the site should be.

Also abu nuwas who told me about this site turns out some pretty decent stuff. Of course the main thing to me is that people actually want to improve and are willing to give and get real criticism, regardless of their knowledge or skill level. I get so tired of the empty platitudes that one tends to get from sites like AP.

i think Abu is a dark horse. at first i saw a poem or two but as time went on he posted more. like all of our members who post he's an asset.
while we're not all super skilled, we are honest. beside that we're mean or cruel like they are on the extra scathing sites.

you seem to be fitting in perfectly.

[grannyjill]

Hi billy If you're doing a re-write - I reckon

'to let a stained-glass window pray' is okay but we know it's glass, and stained-glass window is kinda ordinary but I think 'to let a stained window pray' could add an extra dimension (and the rhythm sounds better to me)....as the teens say - 'just saying'

[billy]

i will do a re write. and consider all the input given so far.
thanks for the feedback.

[billy]

First edit; long overdue.
thanks to all who gave feedback, it was remiss of me not to do an edit before now. i alterered the ville line and took leanne's advice with some of the wordage. . i left fizz and gargoyle but did consider a change when i was editing. i'm hoping the fifth verse works a little better now (i went for constant meter). anyway, thanks for all the help via feedback.

---

It Just is


You can have inherent talent
but poetings' a craft;
bricklaying text to build a wall
will not create a raft.

To be an architect of script
or make a buttress fly.
To build an arch that's eloquent
or make a gargoyle cry.

The master builder knows which bit
to keep or crop, to lay
a thought within a sandstone block,
or stained-glass windows pray.

How we castrate syntax and sin
dictates what should have stood.
No artist' blight or grammar spin
our passion spills the blood.

With chaos, periods, and pain;
the skill to wreak at will,
with curly quill, or stick in sand;
voilà , a villanelle

From this point on, and rightly so
we etch, create and fizz.
We teach ourselves, we brood and flow
and with a little knowledge know
                                                that poetry just is...

original

You can have inherent talent

but poetings' a craft;
bricklaying text to build a wall
will not create a raft.

To be an architect of script
or make a buttress fly.
To build an arch that's eloquent
or make a gargoyle cry.

The master builder knows which bit
to keep or crop and how to lay,
a thought within a sandstone block
to let a stained-glass window pray.

How we manipulate syntax and sin
dictates-- what could or should have stood--
no casual blight or grammar call
but with passion splash our blood.

In chaos logic hides, in periods and pain
we gain the skill to wreak at will,
havoc with curly quill, or stick in sand
in sonnet triolet or ville

From this point on, and rightly so
we create, we etch, we fizz.
We teach ourselves, we brood and flow
and with a little knowledge know
that poetry just is...

i had some spare time so took granny's advice and made a poem out of a post i did in the poets discussion forum
do realise some words are repeated.