Taxi Dancer

[Erthona]

You must be a taxi dancer,
your cab, it looks so fine,
do you remember the good old days,
when I could ride you for only a dime?
It doesn’t matter, cause now I’m broke,
but could you spare some sweet charity,
for old times sake,
and spend a free dance on me?

I’m not much to look at,
got two left feet,
I’m afraid of tight places,
I’m too mild and meek.
But I know that you could help me,
if you just let me ride you awhile,
and let me pretend it’s before the crash,
when I still had cash and style.

So what do you say,
a little ride for free?
Come on sweet mama and “spend……..
a little time with me!” [Image: http://pigpenpoetry.com/images/icons/music.gif]

©2011 ~Erthona

[Wildcard]

Let me come back to this one, Dale. I like it, but I think I need to dwell on it for a few before trying to critique. Honestly, your work is really great and I probably can't add anything of value, but I like to try

Thanks for sharing.

[grannyjill]

First impression - this has echoes of a song, but I can't bring it to mind. Catch you later.


Edit - Tina Turner??

[Erthona]

Mark,

Any comments are appreciated.

GJ

OK Big Spender, I'll catch you later.

Dale

[grannyjill]

Nah, it wasn't that......for some reason Tina Turner's Private Dancer came into my head...though, I don't know why since it has nothing to do with your poem.
I don't know what a taxi dancer is - is it like a lap dancer?

I immediately liked this verse, I liked the character speaking - no whining about hard times just a hobo making a simple request to relive the good times. The rhythm suited the words, but that got lost a bit from 'But, I know that you could help me' (see suggested tightening)

You must be a taxi dancer,
you’re cab, it looks so fine,....do you mean 'your cab' or 'you are a cab'? If the latter 'it' should be 'you'
do you remember the good old days,
when I could ride you for only a dime?
It doesn’t matter, cause now I’m broke, 'It doesn't matter' doesn't seem right here 'times are hard?'
but could you spare some sweet charity, I could use some sweet charity/for old times sake.
for old times sake,
and spend a free dance on me? Spare a free dance for me (like spare a dime!)

I’m not much to look at,
got two left feet,
I’m afraid of tight places,
I’m too mild and meek.
But I know that you could help me, But I know it would help me
if you just let me ride you awhile, if I just rode you for a while
and let me pretend it’s before the crash, to pretend it's before the crash
when I still had cash and style. when I had cash and style

So what do you say, no comma
a little ride for free? to a little ride for free?
Come on sweet mama and “spend…….. no 'and'
a little time with me!” [Image: music.gif]

All these black bits look terrible, but they are only 'tightening up' suggestions and this is 'serious critique'.

[Erthona]

Some background information and other stuff!

A Taxi Dancer is a girl who dances with men for money. A token for a dance is usually purchased. In a sense it is like hiring a cab, which I assume is where the name came from. This is a main plot device in the Musical "Sweet Charity". If you are familiar with the musical, a lot of this stuff makes more sense. Not really a favorite musical of mine as I don't really like Shirley MacLaine who plays the main character, "Charity Hope Valentine". However, some of the ideas, have an interesting play when put against the backdrop of financially difficult times, such as then and now. The big musical number in this that everybody knows is "Hey Big Spender", which I allude to/quote at the end of the poem.

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There is generous interplay between several motifs that are the backbone of the poem. I divide the main ones into dichotomous pairs below.

Dance=sex
Girl=car
Man=fare (That is the primary value of the man is his money, the primary value of a woman is her body. A man uses his money to borrow her body, in much the same way that a man "rents" a cab.)

There were many men, who before the crash preceding the Great Depression, were very wealthy, and that wealth created the illusion that they were suave. After the crash and losing the money, the man realizes the reality of who he really is without money artificially propping him up. Therefore

Money= self esteem/illusion.

So these men were no longer desirable without their money. The particular man in the poem still thinks that if he could somehow "ride" this cab, it might bring back the illusion he once enjoyed. That is the woman appearing to desire him is the ultimate conformation of his desirability.

woman as object
woman as cure
possession of woman as conformation of virility.

This is encapsulated in the four lines:

"I know that you could help me,
if you just let me ride you awhile,
and let me pretend it’s before the crash,
when I still had cash and style."

GJ,

Thanks for the suggestions. Some of those I can use. If I used other's it would take away the underlying premiss that is behind this poem. I'll explain some of the below. However, as your suggestion show that I probably didn't communicate some of the aspects well, I may need to look at making those a little more clear.



but could you spare some sweet charity, (I could use some sweet charity/for old times sake.)
and spend a free dance on me? Spare a free dance for me (like spare a dime!)

The first of these two line does what you recommend in the second, that is equate it to "hey buddy can you spare a dime". The second line is as it is because I have already used that device "spare a dime".

It doesn’t matter, cause now I’m broke, 'It doesn't matter' doesn't seem right here 'times are hard?'

What doesn't matter is that he used to be able to get a dance for a dime. As he is broke and has no dime...

"But I know that you could help me" - It, the dance, will not help him. It is the woman who will help him by accepting him, he becomes what he was.

The line "if you just let me ride you awhile" is suppose to be the equivalence of the idea of a woman riding a man like a horse.

So what do you say, --->(no comma) comma acts as needed caesura.

a little ride for free? ---> to a little ride for free? "a little ride for free" is straight iambic trimeter. Not sure why I would want to change it, as this is primarily written in iambic free verse.
-----------------------------
You're should be your. Thanks for catching that.

"when I still had cash and style. ---> when I had cash and style" I'll look at that one, you are probably correct, dropping the "still" makes it read more cleanly.

"Come on sweet mama and “spend…….. no 'and' " That might be good, it more closely mimics the words of the song.
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Thanks for the critique. Even if I don't use suggestions, they still force me to justify what I have written, and as I said, your comments make me think I am not being as clear as I need to be in presenting these motifs.

Thanks again,

MC

Dale

[grannyjill]

We're back to argument which was raging recently in another thread - do you, the writer have to dot all the i's and cross all the t's - to ensure that your words are crystal clear to everyone? I would say not - especially since you will have readers like me who don't know what a taxi dancer is.

My poetry is marred by my inability to let something go unsaid, or let something be ambiguous. My appreciation of poetry is marred by that same fault....always I want to know what the poet means - and often pass a good piece of creative verse by because I don't 'get' its meaning. I am learning, though, and I am finding that the lively discussions on pigpen are opening my mind tremendously.

[Erthona]

GJ,

(As you begin reading through this over long reply it may strike you as an unsupportable excessive use of verbosity, no doubt it is. To me there are two major aspects at the core of poetic critique, the role of clarity, and it's importance is one of them. As I am not proofing what I write in this response, it no doubt goes down many rabbits holes from which it never satisfactorily returns. I plead two extenuating facts; The last three days or so have been especially difficult, even compared to the usual holiday fun, and very little sleep, so I am a bit...out there. I'm too tired to read back over this to see if it makes sense or not. A bit ironic considering the topic. Feel free to file 13 if it seems too much nonsense to deal with, or even if it doesn't. It is primarily a function of this being a bit of a pet peeve with me, and the total incomprehension that anyone wanting to write poetry does not see this topic and paramount importance. Oh well, I am weird in more than just this respect!

Hopefully it may make some sense to you, but I am too tired to care at the moment. I don't care how beautiful she is, no woman can interest me unless her name is mattressa!

"Dark knight hair rinse. A doo, a dew, my kingdom is way past due!"
I know I am tard (tired), channeling the bard is too damn hard!
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" do you, the writer have to dot all the i's and cross all the t's - to ensure that your words are crystal clear to everyone?"

I think as much as is reasonably possible. Poetry is a form of communication. Why would I want to convey inaccurate information. Of course I am not responsible to make everyone know what I am saying. I accept that I will lose a certain percentage of my readers, either because they lack the intelligence or desire to understand what I am saying, or they are simply to lazy to go look up "gam" on dictionary.com which takes all of ten seconds So no, I am not responsible to the willfully ignorant, or the person who is simply limited in intelligence and who will never be able to grasp things beyond a certain conceptual level. I would not expect a third grader to understand what I write. However for those who have both the intelligence and desire to understand what I write, I have the responsibility to be as clear as I can in transmitting what I am writing. This is of course ignoring that what I write comes from the muse, and often I am unaware of what exactly I am write because it is beyond my own comprehension. There are many poems that I look at ten, twenty, even thirty years down the road and find things that I know I was unaware of when writing the poem, and would not even begin to be aware of, let alone understand it until many years later. Still, it is my responsibility to transmit what I get as accurately as I am capable, or at least until there is a diminishing return for the effort I am giving. I also understand that people will get things that are completely beyond what I was aware in writing, simply for no other reason than assigning connotations to words I am using, because I am unaware of that connotation, or that it is a completely localized usage of it, or in fact completely wrong. Generally one assumes that the definition will be taken from the context, but sometimes people just put things together in odd ways and come up with completely different interpretations to what I had in mind (here is a sticky point in our overly PC society, "Are they wrong in their interpretation?" To put it gently, let us say their response falls in a much lower percentile of responses than the vast majority of readers. But to be perfectly honest with you, I believe in paying a certain of homage to general consensus. And face it, some people are just plain nutters, but unlike poets, they are not so in a positive way. The other aspect of this writing, is that it is such that gets below ones normal defenses, and despite ourselves we discover something new, and sometimes even of lasting value. The best knowledge is like that. It is acquired in such a way that it is not consciously put together, but comes as a result of the aggregate information causing to arise an amalgam off something that is completely new to us. That is to say, a leap beyond where we could get to in our normal mode of thinking. An epiphany, if you will. However, despite all these benefits to clear writing, I cannot conceive why anyone would wish to want to be anything less than their clearest. Such an attitude is completely beyond me. Why would anyone want to purposefully be misunderstood. Well... there are at least no good reasons. Grammar is there for a reason, and to violate that, I think one must have an extremely good argument to do so (and a genius IQ to back it up). What we call grammar is an evolved system that basically says here is the most agreed upon and most tried system. It has evolved over hundreds of years, through trial and error experimentation for the purpose of clarity in written communication.
I think one of the reasons that people avoid being as grammatical as possible is they think, that if people clearly understand their intent, they will realize that they have little of value to say. In some cases that may be true, in others it is not, but for someone to practice this kind of self deceit is in complete opposition to what a poet is, and it will eventually kill what little inspiration is present. Poetry has always been the most clear way the gods could communicate truth to humans. All art forms are irrational, since inspiration is in opposition to reason. Inspiration has always been considered a form of madness, the use of mad in this sense means against what is rational, or reasonable. Poetry, more so than any of the primary art forms is the most difficult as it requires reason and inspiration to co-exist to a much greater degree than anything else, and having been at the professional level (read, making money) with both music and art at different times in my life (as well as with poetry to a much lesser degree) I feel somewhat qualified to make that assessment.
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"My poetry is marred by my inability to let something go unsaid, or let something be ambiguous."

Being clear, I think, does not make easy that which is difficult, it just means that you also don't have to wade through poor grammar, unintended ambiguity, and purposeful obfuscation to come at the meat of the thing. I reveled in a non-poetry way a lot of information about this poem as regards the context and literary allusions that were operative.
I do not think I reveled anything of importance of it's essence, it was simply removing things that should have not been obstacles to begin with.

Yesterday evening I went with my girls to drive around in the more affluent neighborhoods and look at the Christmas lights that people put up. There was less than I ever remember seeing. A solid indication that financially we are in a worse condition than we have been in during most of my lifetime. I think one would have noticed similar changes during the time of the great depression, although it is not nearly to that degree...yet. Still I think extended financial stress brings about a number of the same patterns, just as grief over the loss of a loved one follows a similar pattern for everyone who goes through the process (whether it is your mother, lover or cat). But to say these things about the poem only points one in the right direction as far as the background is concerned (something about anyone could find from a quick search of the net), it does not give away the essence of what is there.

[Here is another change because of the internet. I no longer feel the need to note sources of alluded to material as it is so easily searchable. Often, all one needs do is type in the quote, and the search blurbs will tell you most of what you need to know.]

So here is my encapsulated take. Poetry deals with subjects that are difficult enough to deal with, without adding an unnecessary layer of mud one must swim through in order to get to the truth of the poem. Besides a poet must above all other artist remain truthful and genuine. How can he do so if he is already purposefully doing the opposite. What protection will he have against flattery and sycophants? I think the motto of the poet should be "To the muse one must be true!"

Feel free to reply with equally long and windy verbosity! http://pigpenpoetry.com/images/smilies/cool.gif


Dale

[grannyjill]

I've not got the time for long and windy verbosity.

You tell me something, I ponder on it and think 'That makes a deal of sense' I bump into Mr. Jones and mention what you've said, he takes a completely different tack and in five minutes he's convinced me of the veracity of his argument and I think 'That makes a deal of sense' and so it goes on.

I like to think I keep an open mind, but I suspect that I'm a simple soul who likes to agree with everyone and who is a waverer by upbringing and nature.

My poetry communicates because that is why I write it. I want to tell you something, or show you how I feel BUT in doing so I'm sure the reader thinks 'So, who cares, who wants to know?' Intrique would add something to the finished verse....and make the reader do something rather than be a passive participant. That's where I fail.

[Erthona]

"My poetry communicates because that is why I write it."

Well there is a nice bit of circular logic.

Cogito, ergo, cogito, cogito?

You might as well give up the facade. "Simple soul waverers" never write poetry; they would not see a compelling reason. Not because they are "waverers", but because a simple soul see everything as either obvious or beyond comprehension. However, being a "waverer", they would never be able to make all of those decision that are required to write poetry. The first time they had to choose between similar words they would freeze up. Despite all your protestations, you seem remarkably decisive. This is not to mention that one has to have a certain level of confidence in oneself and worldview to not only write poetry, but to post it on the web to be judged by the worthless masses.

"Dammit Jim, I'm just a simple country doctor, I'm not a miracle worker!" --Leonard McCoy, Chief medical officer of the Star Ship "Enterprise".
_____________________________________
"'Tis deeply sworn. Sweet, leave me here awhile;
My spirits grow dull, and fain I would beguile
The tedious day with sleep."
------------------------------------------
"Madam, how like you this play?"

"The lady protests too much, methinks."
-----------------------------------------
...and so do I!

______________________________________
It's a deep boar. Hammy, leave me here awhile,
My soul does grow simple, and I would beguile,
all those tedious players who still today,
wonder aloud if reality is just a play,
the world is but an elaborate stage,
and we are being played upon!



Dale

[grannyjill]

Well, now....I wonder myself why I put what I write on public view because I anticipate ALWAYS that it will be met with scorn. It's probably very Freudian and too deep for me to know the answer.

But, I am aware that if I know no-one is going to read what I write I gradually stop writing.

I am amazingly decisive (until someone else questions my judgement)
Unquestioned I am fully in command of the ship and able to steer it to the stars.

Methinks my protest is for real
My skin is liketh to an orange peel
Robust and thick and full of zest
Until a dagger puts it to the test
And then my juices flow like tears
Releasing all my pent-up fears.
Forsooth!

(damn...I've just realised that this is in 'Serious' crit and I've been told not to write verses in my responses...but, my excuse? You started it)

[Erthona]

"damn...I've just realised that this is in 'Serious' crit and I've been told not to write verses in my responses...but, my excuse? You started it"

Well you know us old people, we like to chat and our minds do wonder. As this is an old thread, hopefully they'll just ignore it. But I was told not to quote a full poem you wrote, I don't think on the spot verse form counts. Well hold serve, I will have to get a ruling on that. UMPIRE!!!!!
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Freudian?

Yes, that would be a term for a simple soul. Here is how a simple soul responds to that word.

Girl in a bar talking with "simple soul man"

She "Was that a Freudian slip?"

He "Floyd who?"
---------
BTW

Some of the synonyms for simple are: artless, common, ignorant, elementary, facile, incomplex, unexperienced, unpretentious, unschooled, unsophisticated, unstudied, unvarnished...

We've wandered off it appears, soon they'll be handing us our rears, we should get back to the thread, screw it, I've got nothing, that horse is dead.

Dale

[Philatone]

hey man
these are my thoughts that came to mind as I read

You must be a taxi dancer, ..I really like the opening. I think it sets the scene. I can really imagine a guy walking up to someone and saying it
you’re cab, it looks so fine, ...is "you're" the spelling you want?"
do you remember the good old days,
when I could ride you for only a dime? ..the "only" disrupted the rhythm for me. adds two syllables too many
It doesn’t matter, cause now I’m broke,
but could you spare some sweet charity,
for old times sake,
and spend a free dance on me?

..as I read this first stanza, I think a consistent meter may actually help things. I felt that I was groping for longer lines, or shorter ones conversely, as I read. A set meter could also reinforce the "dance" theme. Glancing over the rest of the poem, a meter would certainly fit the remainder of the piece. If that doesn't suit you, I think the first two lines have a meter that is slightly too regular (iambic); disrupting it a bit could serve the rest of the stanza. just a thought
I’m not much to look at,
got two left feet,
I’m afraid of tight places,...I liked this line, yet...
I’m too mild and meek. ...this struck me as forced. rather than those adjectives, is there a scene or image you could prove them with?
But I know that you could help me,
if you just let me ride you awhile,
and let me pretend it’s before the crash, ...liked "before the crash"; establishes so much.
when I still had cash and style.

So what do you say,
a little ride for free?
Come on sweet mama and “spend……..
a little time with me!” [Image: http://pigpenpoetry.com/images/icons/music.gif]

©2011 ~Erthona

just some quick thoughts I had; hope something useful can come of them

[rayheinrich]

I typed the term "taxi dancer" in my Google search box, pressed enter,
and one second later the first item was an entire wiki entry on
taxi dancers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_dancer

The second was a Google assembly of taxi dancer photos:
http://tinyurl.com/taxi-dancer
(these are just wonderful, most worthy of their own poem)

Readers that don't have 5 seconds worth of interest aren't worth having.
(IMHO)

[Erthona]

Philatone,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Many of the points of which I might raise my self.


"I think the first two lines have a meter that is slightly too regular"

The first two lines are written in ballad meter. A line of iambic tetrameter followed by a line of iambic trimeter.

"I think a consistent meter may actually help things."

This is written in free iambic verse (although not as stiffly as say Prufrock, and smewhat imitative of the cadence in the song "Big Spender") so that it could more closely imitate the linga franca of the roaring twenties. It may or may not succeed, but that is the justification for it. So the lines will be irregular. It is true, and I know what you mean, as I have offered the same sort of criticism before about a regular meter at the start priming one to expect it to continue, and when it does not, it is disruptive (although as mentioned above the first two lines are not the same, but they could cause some to anticipate ballad meter). Despite that, I do think this mimics the rhythmic patterns of speech from the twenties, or at least what has become perceived as the stereotype for that era. On my part, a major part of the impetus for writing this was to play with that sort of gum chewing, bead swinging, Tommy gun toting, mob moll, flapper patter from that time; not that I succeeded!

"...this struck me as forced. rather than those adjectives, is there a scene or image you could prove them with?"

There is a character in the musical "Sweet Charity", who becomes involved with the title character, then ends up dumping her, literally, throws her and her suitcases into a lake. So, as this is being spoken by that person, when speaking of himself it may on occasion ring false. Thus the inverse to the common cliche (started in Caspar Milquetoast series, circa 1912), of "meek and mild". However, and to some degree, it is reflective of the indecision of the character whose name happens to be "Oscar Lindquist". So I think a reversal on the "meek and mild" refrain is apropos here.

you’re should be your
I guess I will get around to correcting that one of these days

Thanks again for your comments. I will continue to mull them over.

Dale

---

Thanks Ray,

Yes, I confess to having a bit of Elliot in me (although I don't belief I am as light in the fingers), and I used to footnote a lot of things, but as the references and inferences and allusions are so easy to track down these days, I have quit the practice, unless it is not easily available on the net, and to that end, I do try and see if there information about the reference before I post a poem. However I suppose many might not make the connection between "Caspar Milquetoast" and "Oscar Lindquist", but obviously the writers of the musical expected it. Of course all of this presupposes the level of knowledge of the reader, and the assumption here is that the reader would be familiar with the musical, as well as some awareness of that time period. If I did not assume those things I would have three times as many footnotes as poem (there is little exaggeration there, as in the past I have taken up nearly as much space as the poem with footnotes, and on some pages the footnote would actually take more room than the poem.

On the other hand I can understand peoples frustration with having to look things up. Often times when I write something it is after a period of immersion in the subject, and so all the information is quite fresh. However if I revisit a lot of my poems, I am also relegated to looking things up, scratching my head and wondering, "What the hell was I talking about!"

There is a story of Elizabeth Browning being interviewed, and in the interview asked
if she understands her husband's (Robert Browning's) poetry. She responded by saying, "only God and Mr. Browning understand Mr. Browning's poetry, and sometimes I am not too certain about Mr. Browning!"

Dale