Basic Meter Question

[starsman]

Hello!

I am still coming to grips with meter, and I have not had much luck finding a concise answer to this question I have. Hoping that you, my fellow & more experienced poets, have the answer I would relish the opportunity to learn from you. Now, I know there is information about meter on the site, and I have searched but have not been able to find the answer I am looking for. So, here is my question about the very basics of meter.

Do the stressed and unstressed syllables come from the word?
Can some words go either way? e.g.: FALLen / fallEN
If so, do you know of any resources to help find where the stressed syllables are in a word? (I've checked some dictionaries, they are tedious and unclear)

Cheers, S.M.

[Leanne]

Hi starsman -- the short answer is no. Not entirely. Well, sometimes it does. A bit. There's no short answer. Scansion, meter, all of this jazz takes a lot of trial and error and a fair bit of arguing/consensus/pointing out inconsistencies/punching milo in the face/calling Leanne a whore/drinking wine/throwing up wine/crying yourself to death. It's the best carnival ride in the world.

If a word is alone on a line, e.g. if you were writing in monometer and you used the word 'fallen', then only the meter of that one word would matter -- and it would invariably be 'FALLen', a trochee. I can't actually imagine a scenario in which it would stress the second syllable, but that's not true of every word, so the best thing is to look at the line as a whole and not necessarily the words. If you get stuck on looking at how words are pronounced, you end up forgetting that meter isn't about words, but about stresses of individual syllables in concert. The only foolproof way I've ever found -- and I've tried many, having been several different kinds of fool -- is to get the meter fixed in your head FIRST, and then fit the words into it. If you have to change the way that you would naturally pronounce a word to fit the meter, it doesn't fit the meter. Hope this is reasonably clear -- but in truth, the best way of all is to try and fail, then fix it until you need to fix it less frequently.

[starsman]

Got it, it is about context.

Can a rocketship go into space? If it has fuel starsman, if it has fuel...

You are right, this will be a fun ride! Thank you Leanne for your words of wisdom here. I hope you don't mind if I skip the part where I have to call you a whore.

[Leanne]

That's mostly just milo anyway. You can punch him in the face if you like. It energises him.

[tectak]

Hello!

I am still coming to grips with meter, and I have not had much luck finding a concise answer to this question I have.  Hoping that you, my fellow & more experienced poets, have the answer I would relish the opportunity to learn from you.  Now, I know there is information about meter on the site, and I have searched but have not been able to find the answer I am looking for.  So, here is my question about the very basics of meter.

Do the stressed and unstressed syllables come from the word?
Can some words go either way? e.g.: FALLen / fallEN
If so, do you know of any resources to help find where the stressed syllables are in a word? (I've checked some dictionaries, they are tedious and unclear)

Cheers, S.M.

All of what leanne said...but also...READ YOUR WORK OUT LOUD.
There is a very good reason for doing this. If you only read in your head your brain will apply the kind of deformations to the words that ORIGINALLY made you think you were right....in other words, you will find that you do do not speak as you THINK you speak.
That this is true is evinced by your question on the word "fallen". Say it both ways out loud. Can you hear yourself ever saying fall-EN?
Best,
Tectak
(One more tip. If you write a whole first stanza in a meter which sounds just fine when read out loud, use the stanza as a meter template for subsequent stanzas. You will.find it much easier to match emphases and syllable count by comparing line by line with YOUR OWN already firmed up words, than to try from scratch stanza by stanza)

[ellajam]

Welcome to the funhouse, starman. I have been learning meter on this site for the last year. I occasionally get it right before posting but usually there are at least a few juicy meter discussions in each of my threads. I've found the Practice forum extremely useful. The combination of Leanne's definition of each form followed by discussion of all the attempts brings a lot to light.

One of the great things about this site is that is when I post what I think is the best I can do people are willing to point out the flaws and help me fix them. I never want to punch milo because he is always willing to discuss me out of my mistakes when I can't quite get it. And I don't care if Leanne is a whore, she spouts a sonnet before I get four lines, and makes it interesting to boot.

So my suggestion to you is to read  the crit on metered poems in the workshops and the practice threads. It has helped me take my baby steps forward. Try your best to get your work right then put it up and let us have a swing at it. If there are spots you're unsure of point them out and ask for help. Critique other people's metered poems, it makes you think harder. Improving slowly is better than not improving at all and trial and error seems to work.

Even if your magic book existed it still wouldn't be right when you add into the mix that English words are pronounced differently in different parts of the world.

Poke around the site and push your limits. Read a lot and write a lot. Progress is slow but fun.

[starsman]

That's mostly just milo anyway. You can punch him in the face if you like. It energises him.

Duly noted. Thank you for informing me on the appropriate protocol for approaching Milo. I will be sure to greet him in the manner you prescribed.

All of what leanne said...but also...READ YOUR WORK OUT LOUD.
There is a very good reason for doing this. If you only read in your head your brain will apply the kind of deformations to the words that ORIGINALLY made you think you were right....in other words, you will find that you do do not speak as you THINK you speak.
That this is true is evinced by your question on the word "fallen". Say it both ways out loud. Can you hear yourself ever saying fall-EN?
Best,
Tectak
(One more tip. If you write a whole first stanza in a meter which sounds just fine when read out loud, use the stanza as a meter template for subsequent stanzas. You will.find it much easier to match emphases and syllable count by comparing line by line with YOUR OWN already firmed up words, than to try from scratch stanza by stanza)

Oh yeah, fallen was a terrible example. It was the only word that popped in my head though! >_<

Indeed, I will read my works aloud.. yet in there is a point where I find more trouble. Ms. Jam points it out when she says that English words are pronounced differently by different people. I have a strong foreign accent and it greatly affects the way I read. While I may be able to put words in that would work well for how I speak, the audience of people who speak like me are very small.

It would be okay if I were the only one to read my poems aloud, but I would hope that one day others would be able to read my poetry and appreciate it. Thus, my desire for a magic book which would help me know where words are commonly stressed...

Perhaps a way around this would be to get people to read my poetry for me?

Thanks again for your words of insight here, I have a better grasp of this already!

Welcome to the funhouse, starman. I have been learning meter on this site for the last year. I occasionally get it right before posting but usually there are at least a few juicy meter discussions in each of my threads. I've found the Practice forum extremely useful. The combination of Leanne's definition of each form followed by discussion of all the attempts brings a lot to light.

One of the great things about this site is that is when I post what I think is the best I can do people are willing to point out the flaws and help me fix them. I never want to punch milo because he is always willing to discuss me out of my mistakes when I can't quite get it. And I don't care if Leanne is a whore, she spouts a sonnet before I get four lines, and makes it interesting to boot.

So my suggestion to you is to read  the crit on metered poems in the workshops and the practice threads. It has helped me take my baby steps forward. Try your best to get your work right then put it up and let us have a swing at it. If there are spots you're unsure of point them out and ask for help. Critique other people's metered poems, it makes you think harder. Improving slowly is better than not improving at all and trial and error seems to work.

Even if your magic book existed it still wouldn't be right when you add into the mix that English words are pronounced differently in different parts of the world.

Poke around the site and push your limits. Read a lot and write a lot. Progress is slow but fun.

Thanks for that Ms. Jam, now that I understand the basics of how meter works I am sure that I am relish delving deeply into this nuance I never paid much attention to before. I will follow your suggestion, see you around the practice area!

----

Thank you again everyone. Though I understood the theory of meter a little bit before, you have helped me understand the mechanics of how it works. Now I am excited to enter into this world I had only studied previously but never knew how to set foot in. Though I am sure I will have many more questions, I am confident I can start this journey... foot by foot and meter by meter, I'll get there!

[Leanne]

'Foreign accent' is kind of meaningless to us here... we're from all over and every one of us pronounces words differently. That's why it's most helpful to just put it out there, let us read it and see what people have difficulty with.

[starsman]

Indeed, how silly of me.

Trial by error, here we come!!