-From “The Fall of Sons of Sirion” Canto II

[Erthona]

PROLOGUE

The Prophecy of the Demon Azazel

You will feel me, against your mind, as you fade, to dreamless sleep.
You will feel, as through you, I will slide, with my splines in deep.
You will be blind, in your mind, you won't know, of you, I partook,
This final feast, of the beast, I'll catch your soul, on subtle hook.
Your purpose clear, a breeding whore, in you I will bore, my lust,
Just like before, you've thrown wide the door, for the incubus.
Don't you recall, the painful ecstasy, when last we had met?
Power ran deep, strength still in your veins, then a virgin yet.
Pure blood no more, you're only a whore, a breeding cow
You will grow my seed, you fulfill the need, complete the vow.
I used you once then, now I use you again, you goddess-whore,
For my child to come, into this world now needs a door.
But unlike then, this time we bring, hell to a weakened man,
Unlike before, there be no more, left to make the stand.
Man will have failed, God will fall to Hell, no more Heaven and Earth
Though you grieve, you will conceive, to our victory you'll give birth.
My revenge, he will triumph in the end, over mankind's seed,
Hell will rejoice, as man's world dies, and Holy God bleeds.
Then the three I'll curse, and in Hell they'll stay, for betraying me,
Mankind! you will bring their doom, what joy, oh what irony!


I

Multifaceted, is the answer, or so the memories say,
The same answer for why we respond as we do today,
A dash of altruism, an iota of empathy,
Stir in spiteful selfishness, add a modicum greed.
The deft, subtle hand that stretched down to lift up humanity,
Hiding in the open attains its anonymity.
And yet there are clues and hints that hound its path through history,
A sleuth with persistence can quickly solve this mystery.
Except our minds, have built-in blinds, so we see not what is there,
Clear to see, we could easily perceive, if we but cared.
But we care not, cause we want not, as they had so intended.
Our minds are the problem, what they broke, cannot be mended.
As we, was Enkidu lured, from nature’s blissful ignorance,
Into our minds, was knowledge sown destroying innocence.
Seduced by wisdom’s whore by this goddess-slut mankind was awed,
Thus it was recorded, that it was she who caused his fall.
Evolution does not explain, the quick doubling of man’s brain,
The ideas thus proposed, in light of reason seem inane,
Nor explain abrupt appearance of advanced technologies,
A convulsive spurt, after barren years throughout our history.
Cultivated seed, irrigation, the rise of great nations,
Where a few years before there was not, but privations.
In Summer, the writing art did so magically appear,
But from where cuneiform did come, has yet to be made clear.
Millennia did pass, suddenly, iron materialized,
From who or from whence it came no one has hypothesized,
Except surmise that from the gods not of man this gift did come,
Histories show man was yet a babe sucking on his thumb.
Newton in one year, more progress made than in four thousand years,
Einstein also, in one year, progressed such, still mankind does cheer.
But is it not odd, all at once these great bursts of knowledge come,
the rest of the time, eight thousand years long, mankind is dumb?
Though, looking closely, would we find this pattern and even more,
Yet once in a while, a visit still paid by wisdom’s whore.
We do not see, or we cannot, what is right beyond our nose,
As if our minds were by some hand sown, permanently closed.

II

Pre-ordained synthesis brazed; here in primeval clay is found,
God in man, quintessence was joined, and thus in kinship bound.
Womb, o’er eons then did ripen; child of God thus begotten,
Climacteric blood, sacrosanct sign, not forgotten.
Ages antecedent, tacit man broods on this unctuous world.
Unconsciously awaiting the one the stars it’s said, did hurl.
Rebellious alliance, of spirit and blood gestating still,
contesting without, and within the goddess Ennihil.
Ennihil the midwives of creation, the ones who would fall,
Unseen hand, predestined plan, gain the whole, would risk the all.
These unwilling ones did witness, and the hidden one of four,
For her mankind was yoked, the son et lumiere bore.
Summon then the ancient muses: open then the oft-fooled mind,
let us sere the story’s truth, which no one may unbind.
Replace factual history, or so it has been perceived,
with this story, authentic fiction, that does not deceive.
On stage, on this world placed was the beloved bastard child of God,
whose many lives, to birth and die, his feet this ground has trod.
So listen man, this is your story, listen with heart and ear,
a story half full, for the end is not yet drawing near.
Omnipotence reached out, and on this stage put this weakling man,
his champion be in God’s place man will make the final stand.
This gambit which could not be lost, risked more than petty nations,
it would risk the toppling of eternity’s foundations.

III

This love of the three externals such would risk oblivion,
though a story of the gods, pages turn in hearts of man.
Turn the page then back to Eden, she is the connecting node,
gods holy city, though none in her make it their abode,
faintly earth reflects the heavens, they both share the selfsame hymn,
for in heaven she’s the same, she they call Jerusalem.
It has been a mystery that man from Eden was thus tossed,
and would agree the most in all, this was the greatest loss,
How our father Adam, doing that which came most naturally,
should God from this garden banish for curiosity?
The truth, a child remembers only what a child remembers,
as Iron Pyrite is gold, his memories but pretenders,
at face value it cannot be wholly taken, or believed,
to view such as this as whole cloth, one will be deceived.
Children in ignorance and innocence will for years be,
such was it with our father Adam, as a child was he.
The story he told, was garbled, as from a child’s point of view,
on to this world, this earth, he walked, his eyes were as brand new.
While in Eden his form was pure, in perfection was he garbed,
unaware was he of the wild and untamed world at large,
and those who walked upon it the same in form yet not in mind,
for like animals these all were, and to the self were blind.
In form he and they the same, as a brother to each and all,
unaware he knew them not, behind Eden’s arching walls.
& called he thus two great trees, one of knowledge and one of life,
according to the first of us, this was what caused all our strife,
she, his lovely mate, by a beautiful serpent was deceived,
and did eat, as did he, the fall caused by this woman Eve.
Cast out by God, say they, into this world, Eden did grieve.
but they remembered, only what was given, and this mistook,
and thus the story written down, and all on earth partook.
Yet, not by guile they did deceive, nor in lies did they conceive,
still, false the story told, as how from Eden they did leave.
Millennia on millennia, twenty thousand years,
this story was retold, although nonsensical and queer.
Lies when learned as truth, are difficult to leave, and truth receive,
for the ancient enemy and friend, friend and enemy,
although are two, it is now then difficult to separate,
one from the other, they are brothers, and man, one does hate!
The other, he, man does cherish, though the other did create,
if the choice were his, he would have chosen to abate.
So, that the father does hate his child, and mankind that child is,
but the one who did not create, regards us as though his!
Mankind thus then was adopted by the non-creator god,
and if his brother had his choice, would he on mankind trod.
Thus has confusion, for millenniums, fallen as though rain,
confusing brothers two, as though were one and the same.

IV

The high god Enki, a great construct made, to fulfill his pledge,
it ran along his holy house, the ends stood edge to edge.
"Create for us a man, who will be less sorrow than his worth,
a man who thinks, and builds, and plans, and procreates by birth,"
Proclaimed thus Wise Aun(Ah-oon), over all Manifested is he,
"bring the earth from all this world, and over every sea,
mix these earths with blood of all the gods, let Enihil then hold,
to the divine raise up his mind, thus in him spring the soul."
Many years of preparation in his sacred place conceive,
many minute alteration did he make to the breed,
The great god Enki, Ea, here from the beginning of the plan,
the bridge of Men, over two hundred millennia spans.

The sands of traits the great god Ea from volcanoes would expel,
mutations small and great the breed transform and to impel,
to completion, till the time El brought the plan to fruition,
when he usurped Enki and denied his contributions.
Thus was the clay ripen over two hundred millennia
a deception kept from below, by the God above.
and thus did El use his brother as but a tool,
then the entire council divine did know that Enki was made the fool,
all because of lack of trust of one sibling to another,
and thus did Enki feel betrayed by his elder brother.
For there is never hate so deep as that that’s based in love
it was thus, this that turned Enki’s eyes away from El above.

A truer hate was never bred, or gestated there a part,
As that which on the waters did brood, hidden in Enki’s heart,
What had been pure devotion to his brother above,
Now turned to blackest poison from this core of love.
This core of deep suspicion was now inherent in every man,
No peace would he find, till this wound he did bind, and always be wandering.
Yet El would’ve healed this wound, so to his brother gave,
The ninety-four great decrees for Enki thus to save.
Thus Enki took this power great, but tainted it with doubt,
And suspiciously did man receive when he gave it out.
And thus was wisdom turned evil, and mired deep in sin,
Greed, pride, and suspicion, were as equals, and folded in.

And thus adulteration, was welded to the purest gold,
No longer pure, no longer good, with pride was bought and sold.
Thus does man lust for knowledge, for power within the holy tree,
Then turns his back, for fear of sin, away from divine decree.
And so has it ever been, since Adam first put a foot on this earth,
The deepest fear of betrayal has ever been with man since his birth.
And thus would Cain kill Abel, from the moment that Eve did conceive,
Thus the fear and jealousy, would bar the way and lead,
Brother set against brother, and arose the suspicion of fathers and mothers,
Always to the veneer of pride, an excuse for theft and murder,
Thus the betrayal of Enki, then gave birth to suspicion in man,
Thus murder and theft, pain and death have seemed the only plan.

The form for this is syllabic, it is to be in alternating lines of 15 and 14 syllables with rhyming couplets. Although this is the model, it is not rigidly held to in the later verses. Dale
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Postlude
(from the end section of Canto II )

The Land of Nod (Song of Enoch)

Once the parent, mistook for God,
where our mothers before had trod,
little hands went reaching up,
to find some solace there.

But no solace in this land,
which lacks for spirit, thus is bland,
where soul and body have been parted,
and claim but desolation.

Reunite the tortured halves,
return the cow now to her calves,
then in the warmth of loving arms,
we will rest and sleep.

For the oft’ divided land,
births the tiger, not the lamb,
and harvest not the golden grain,
nor finds her consolation.

© ~Erthona

[billy]

this will take a lot of work from me so bear with me please. i'll have to read it a lot to sort out what i think.
did notice empathy and greed lose the rhyme on the first take. it occurs in a few more. can't see if there intended just yet though so hold water

[Erthona]

Thanks for the read Billy. I look forward to whatever you might have to say.


I use a lot of off rhyme and near rhyme, exact rhyme irritates me. You might also notice

awed-fall

awe and fall rhyme, but adding the ed ending to awe makes it appear as though it doesn't.

Or oblivion and man

I think all are intentional, primarily to break of the monotony, especially in something this long. This is after all, only the first four sections. If I ever finish it, it will have in excess of 28 sections.

I'm hoping to die before then

Dale

[billy]

yeah i saw the half rhymes. and the others. i have to say i expected it to be out of choice but you never can tell.
for me it's one of those poems i know i'll never do justice feedback wise. but i'm on it now and i'll see what i can get wrong

---

PROLOGUE

The Prophecy of the Demon Azazel

You will feel me, against your mind, as you fade, to dreamless sleep.
You will feel, as through you, I will slide, with my splines in deep. (are all commas needed?) strong opening lines
You will be blind, in your mind, you won't know, of you, I partook, the repeat of mind so soon jars a little
This final feast, of the beast, I'll catch your soul, on subtle hook.
Your purpose clear, a breeding whore, in you I will bore, my lust, my lust feels a bit cliche
Just like before, you've thrown wide the door, for the incubus.
Don't you recall, the painful ecstasy, when last we had met?
Power ran deep, strength still in your veins, then a virgin yet.
Pure blood no more, you're only a whore, a breeding cow the repeat of breeding feels a bit heavy i also see whore and a few roe so i won't mention any after this
You will grow my seed, you fulfill the need, complete the vow. fulfil, not sure if yours in a usa version
I used you once then, now I use you again, you goddess-whore,
For my child to come, into this world now needs a door.
But unlike then, this time we bring, hell to a weakened man,
Unlike before, there be no more, left to make the stand.
Man will have failed, God will fall to Hell, no more Heaven and Earth
Though you grieve, you will conceive, to our victory you'll give birth.
My revenge, he will triumph in the end, over mankind's seed,
Hell will rejoice, as man's world dies, and Holy God bleeds.
Then the three I'll curse, and in Hell they'll stay, for betraying me,
Mankind! you will bring their doom, what joy, oh what irony!

it works, though i think the 15 syl thing you have going on lends to a lot of packing out. not that thats a bad thing here, it just makes it a little prose, jmo


I

Multifaceted, is the answer, or so the memories say,
The same answer for why we respond as we do today,
A dash of altruism, an iota of empathy,
Stir in spiteful selfishness, add a modicum greed. reminds me of hamlets witches
The deft, subtle hand that stretched down to lift up humanity, i like this line a lot, it feels immutable
Hiding in the open attains its anonymity.
And yet there are clues and hints that hound its path through history, the commas followed by caps throw me off a little but that's just me i think.
A sleuth with persistence can quickly solve this mystery.
Except our minds, have built-in blinds, so we see not what is there,
Clear to see, we could easily perceive, if we but cared.
But we care not, cause we want not, as they had so intended. 'cause
Our minds are the problem, what they broke, cannot be mended.
As we, was Enkidu lured, from nature’s blissful ignorance,
Into our minds, was knowledge sown destroying innocence.
Seduced by wisdom’s whore by this goddess-slut mankind was awed, the grammar feels a bit off
Thus it was recorded, that it was she who caused his fall.
Evolution does not explain, the quick doubling of man’s brain,
The ideas thus proposed, in light of reason seem inane,
Nor explain abrupt appearance of advanced technologies,
A convulsive spurt, after barren years throughout our history.
Cultivated seed, irrigation, the rise of great nations,
Where a few years before there was not, but privations.
In Summer, the writing art did so magically appear,
But from where cuneiform did come, has yet to be made clear.
Millennia did pass, suddenly, iron materialized,
From who or from whence it came no one has hypothesized,
Except surmise that from the gods not of man this gift did come,
Histories show man was yet a babe sucking on his thumb.
Newton in one year, more progress made than in four thousand years,
Einstein also, in one year, progressed such, still mankind does cheer.
But is it not odd, all at once these great bursts of knowledge come,
the rest of the time, eight thousand years long, mankind is dumb?
Though, looking closely, would we find this pattern and even more,
Yet once in a while, a visit still paid by wisdom’s whore.
We do not see, or we cannot, what is right beyond our nose,
As if our minds were by some hand sown, permanently closed.

this reminds me of Gilgamesh and not just because of Enkidu and then it moves through time like a knife. the narrative is excellent here and the 15 syl works really well. i've read this section about 5 times and it flows really
well. i'll rest here for a while and get back it

II

Pre-ordained synthesis brazed; here in primeval clay is found,
God in man, quintessence was joined, and thus in kinship bound.
Womb, o’er eons then did ripen; child of God thus begotten,
Climacteric blood, sacrosanct sign, not forgotten.
Ages antecedent, tacit man broods on this unctuous world.
Unconsciously awaiting the one the stars it’s said, did hurl.
Rebellious alliance, of spirit and blood gestating still,
contesting without, and within the goddess Ennihil.
Ennihil the midwives of creation, the ones who would fall,
Unseen hand, predestined plan, gain the whole, would risk the all.
These unwilling ones did witness, and the hidden one of four,
For her mankind was yoked, the son et lumiere bore.
Summon then the ancient muses: open then the oft-fooled mind,
let us sere the story’s truth, which no one may unbind.
Replace factual history, or so it has been perceived,
with this story, authentic fiction, that does not deceive.
On stage, on this world placed was the beloved bastard child of God,
whose many lives, to birth and die, his feet this ground has trod.
So listen man, this is your story, listen with heart and ear,
a story half full, for the end is not yet drawing near.
Omnipotence reached out, and on this stage put this weakling man,
his champion be in God’s place man will make the final stand.
This gambit which could not be lost, risked more than petty nations,
it would risk the toppling of eternity’s foundations.

III

This love of the three externals such would risk oblivion,
though a story of the gods, pages turn in hearts of man.
Turn the page then back to Eden, she is the connecting node,
gods holy city, though none in her make it their abode,
faintly earth reflects the heavens, they both share the selfsame hymn,
for in heaven she’s the same, she they call Jerusalem.
It has been a mystery that man from Eden was thus tossed,
and would agree the most in all, this was the greatest loss,
How our father Adam, doing that which came most naturally,
should God from this garden banish for curiosity?
The truth, a child remembers only what a child remembers,
as Iron Pyrite is gold, his memories but pretenders,
at face value it cannot be wholly taken, or believed,
to view such as this as whole cloth, one will be deceived.
Children in ignorance and innocence will for years be,
such was it with our father Adam, as a child was he.
The story he told, was garbled, as from a child’s point of view,
on to this world, this earth, he walked, his eyes were as brand new.
While in Eden his form was pure, in perfection was he garbed,
unaware was he of the wild and untamed world at large,
and those who walked upon it the same in form yet not in mind,
for like animals these all were, and to the self were blind.
In form he and they the same, as a brother to each and all,
unaware he knew them not, behind Eden’s arching walls.
& called he thus two great trees, one of knowledge and one of life,
according to the first of us, this was what caused all our strife,
she, his lovely mate, by a beautiful serpent was deceived,
and did eat, as did he, the fall caused by this woman Eve.
Cast out by God, say they, into this world, Eden did grieve.
but they remembered, only what was given, and this mistook,
and thus the story written down, and all on earth partook.
Yet, not by guile they did deceive, nor in lies did they conceive,
still, false the story told, as how from Eden they did leave.
Millennia on millennia, twenty thousand years,
this story was retold, although nonsensical and queer.
Lies when learned as truth, are difficult to leave, and truth receive,
for the ancient enemy and friend, friend and enemy,
although are two, it is now then difficult to separate,
one from the other, they are brothers, and man, one does hate!
The other, he, man does cherish, though the other did create,
if the choice were his, he would have chosen to abate.
So, that the father does hate his child, and mankind that child is,
but the one who did not create, regards us as though his!
Mankind thus then was adopted by the non-creator god,
and if his brother had his choice, would he on mankind trod.
Thus has confusion, for millenniums, fallen as though rain,
confusing brothers two, as though were one and the same.

IV

The high god Enki, a great construct made, to fulfill his pledge,
it ran along his holy house, the ends stood edge to edge.
"Create for us a man, who will be less sorrow than his worth,
a man who thinks, and builds, and plans, and procreates by birth,"
Proclaimed thus Wise Aun(Ah-oon), over all Manifested is he,
"bring the earth from all this world, and over every sea,
mix these earths with blood of all the gods, let Enihil then hold,
to the divine raise up his mind, thus in him spring the soul."
Many years of preparation in his sacred place conceive,
many minute alteration did he make to the breed,
The great god Enki, Ea, here from the beginning of the plan,
the bridge of Men, over two hundred millennia spans.

The sands of traits the great god Ea from volcanoes would expel,
mutations small and great the breed transform and to impel,
to completion, till the time El brought the plan to fruition,
when he usurped Enki and denied his contributions.
Thus was the clay ripen over two hundred millennia
a deception kept from below, by the God above.
and thus did El use his brother as but a tool,
then the entire council divine did know that Enki was made the fool,
all because of lack of trust of one sibling to another,
and thus did Enki feel betrayed by his elder brother.
For there is never hate so deep as that that’s based in love
it was thus, this that turned Enki’s eyes away from El above.

A truer hate was never bred, or gestated there a part,
As that which on the waters did brood, hidden in Enki’s heart,
What had been pure devotion to his brother above,
Now turned to blackest poison from this core of love.
This core of deep suspicion was now inherent in every man,
No peace would he find, till this wound he did bind, and always be wandering.
Yet El would’ve healed this wound, so to his brother gave,
The ninety-four great decrees for Enki thus to save.
Thus Enki took this power great, but tainted it with doubt,
And suspiciously did man receive when he gave it out.
And thus was wisdom turned evil, and mired deep in sin,
Greed, pride, and suspicion, were as equals, and folded in.

And thus adulteration, was welded to the purest gold,
No longer pure, no longer good, with pride was bought and sold.
Thus does man lust for knowledge, for power within the holy tree,
Then turns his back, for fear of sin, away from divine decree.
And so has it ever been, since Adam first put a foot on this earth,
The deepest fear of betrayal has ever been with man since his birth.
And thus would Cain kill Abel, from the moment that Eve did conceive,
Thus the fear and jealousy, would bar the way and lead,
Brother set against brother, and arose the suspicion of fathers and mothers,
Always to the veneer of pride, an excuse for theft and murder,
Thus the betrayal of Enki, then gave birth to suspicion in man,
Thus murder and theft, pain and death have seemed the only plan.

The form for this is syllabic, it is to be in alternating lines of 15 and 14 syllables with rhyming couplets. Although this is the model, it is not rigidly held to in the later verses. Dale
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Postlude
(from the end section of Canto II )

The Land of Nod (Song of Enoch)

Once the parent, mistook for God,
where our mothers before had trod,
little hands went reaching up,
to find some solace there.

But no solace in this land,
which lacks for spirit, thus is bland,
where soul and body have been parted,
and claim but desolation.

Reunite the tortured halves,
return the cow now to her calves,
then in the warmth of loving arms,
we will rest and sleep.

For the oft’ divided land,
births the tiger, not the lamb,
and harvest not the golden grain,
nor finds her consolation.

© ~Erthona

[Erthona]

Thanks Billy. Sorry I was so slow in responding, I didn't notice that you had written this.

(are all commas needed?)
Probably not. The idea was to show where to break the line, but I think it is overdone. I had forgotten that I put all these comma/stops in here, plus they are nor really doing what I intended them to do. I'll definitely have to fix that.
------------------------------------------------------------------
the repeat of mind so soon jars a little

Maybe change the first line to,

"You will feel me, against your thoughts, as you fade, to dreamless sleep."

I want to keep the internal rhyme of mind/blind in L3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"in you I will bore, my lust, my lust feels a bit cliche"

How about if I removed the comma, so it reads..

"in you I will bore my lust"


There is also a play on words here, when she gives birth she bares his lust.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
the repeat of breeding feels a bit heavy i also see whore and a few roe so i won't mention any after this

Yeah, that is a problem. Part of it is, is this is how the character talks, as there is nothing very subtle about him, but I do need to find a way to change it up a bit. I guess my justification of it is that it is suppose to feel like the pounding of a hammer, pretty much just the single-minded brute force approach. Demons are on the dull but melodramatic side after all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
fulfil, not sure if yours in a usa version

"fullfill" that's a typo. I have no idea how that got through spell check, thanks for catching that. That is a common spelling error for me, which I keep making despite being aware of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"it works, though i think the 15 syl thing you have going on lends to a lot of packing out. not that thats a bad thing here, it just makes it a little prose, jmo"

Actually, it is alternating 15/14 syllable lines. Originally this part was not in this form and I decided to regularize it so it matched with the rest of the poem. For a short piece, I think you are correct, and maybe I should put it back more to what it was. The format of 15/14 I created so it would have a form that would not be too constricting, or be too monotonous over a long piece which is basically an epic. I have never felt that any of the Greek forms really work well in English, and I was looking for something that seemed more natural. So in that sense it is closer to prose, which is why I have the rhyming couplets at the end of the lines. Using couplets with a shorter line would be a disaster, but my hope was, with such long lines they would help to tie the lines together without becoming idiotic. I suppose I could have written it in blank verse, such as Milton did in "Paradise Lost", but straight iambic has never seemed natural to me, it seems to force to many syntactical reverses that are not endemic to the language. I also wanted the rhyme to help keep it fresh and interesting. As rhyme is generally no problem for me, it does not create an undue burden, and I don't think there are any that seem overly forced. Anyway, that was my rational for using this form. I personally like the way it reads, especially once you get past the Prologue. There is actually another section between the Prologue and the first verse, which is in a slightly different form. It's based on Coleridge's "Kublai Khan", but it has been gone over quite a bit so I did not include it. I'll put it at the end, of this just in case you want to see what it looks like.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"the commas followed by caps throw me off a little but that's just me i think."

Actually I don't like that either, that was a formatting problem with that version of word. I need to fix that, thanks for pointing that out. I have always hated that affectation of capping the start of every line. I guess I can put up with it in a Sonnet, as that is traditional, but in anything else I find it irritating, and ad hoc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Seduced by wisdom’s whore by this goddess-slut mankind was awed, the grammar feels a bit off "

Yeah, I think I could use em dashes to make "by this goddess-slut" parenthetical, or at the least put a comma after "whore." Plus that line should end with a period not a comma. Good catch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
this reminds me of Gilgamesh and not just because of Enkidu and then it moves through time like a knife. the narrative is excellent here and the 15 syl works really well. i've read this section about 5 times and it flows really
well. i'll rest here for a while and get back it

Yes, it is a bit brain numbing. I can actually write it fairly quickly, it is the editing that takes so much time. I can write a verse the lenght of IV in about an hour, but then the editing takes 30 hours to make sure the punctuation is the way it needs to be so that it is read correctly.

"it moves through time like a knife"

Thanks, I appreciate that. That means it is not dragging, which is a major aspect I wanted to address with using this form. It is one of the reasons I choose to stay away from blank verse, as it just seems to start to drag after awhile. It works OK for Shakespeare because of the change from character to character, but in Milton it just drags, and then with Pope's "Rape of the Lock" because of the rhyming couplets it becomes to singsong. To me only Tennyson seems able to keep blank verse fresh, and obviously I am no Tennyson. Closer to an Elliot I suppose,

Let us look through grayish pants, with only half pressed pleats,
lain out, here and all about, like steamrolled flattened sheep!

(That sort of thing I can write all day long )

Please keep me posted on if you think it continues to work in the next sections.

Thanks,

Dale
----------------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION

Pattern 76788 accentual feet

In Euridu did Enki build, a wondrous garden there, 7
Suspended above the Tigress, on naught but will and air. 6
Strange and wondrous beings savored, the gift of this ancient park,7
Flowers turquoise-crimson grew, amidst giant trees of gold-red bark.8
From highest of all earthly creatures, to the lowest who creep and crawl, 8
Ensorcelled ‘round this ancient ground, a clay fired earthen wall. 7
Its height one score of men, its girth two iters wide, 6
Encompassing all, within its bounds, and every soul alive. 7
Of all the sounds an ear can hear, here no ticking of the clock, 8
Movement sans time to measure, this the great lord’s paradox. 8
Without matter, alchemy freed the massless embryon gold, 7
No scale yet made by man, can weigh it to be sold. 6
To our father Adam given, when dew was freshly ground, 7
This birthright saved for many an age, that evil’s thieving might be bound. 8
Abhorrent death in darkness conquered, need fear & self subjection more, 8
To unbind the path to paradise, and open Eden’s doors. 7

[billy]

i've got my other daughter flying in from spain so to day when i'm on will be in a non thinking way.
i will def get back to the remaining part of your piece.

i'm grateful that you took time to read and respond my feedback. all points aside, i would love to be able to write in such a way. i think some of the ideas you put forward to edit it would make a difference.

[Erthona]

I am very grateful for the time and thought you have put in to help me improve it. It is certainly beneficial for me, I hope, as is often the case for me when I help someone with a piece, it also benefits you. Regardless, this is not an easy piece to deal with, if for no other reason because of it's lenght, so I appreciate you hanging in there with me. You have already given me more constructive criticism than all the other responses I have received from this being posted on several other sites. I do want to tell this story, but I want to tell it in such a way that people will read it, or else what is the point?

Dale

[billy]

sorry for being a long time in getting back

PROLOGUE

II

Pre-ordained synthesis brazed; here in primeval clay is found, found feels a little forced though a good opening to the verse.
God in man, quintessence was joined, and thus in kinship bound.
Womb, o’er eons then did ripen; child of God thus begotten,
Climacteric blood, sacrosanct sign, not forgotten.personally i'm not into biblical speak, i do think you use it well though and i do realize a poem of this title with this content needs it, in that respect i think it done well
Ages antecedent, tacit man broods on this unctuous world.
Unconsciously awaiting the one the stars it’s said, did hurl. 'did' for me doesn't work. i do love the unintended vomit (hurl) unless it was intended.
Rebellious alliance, of spirit and blood gestating still,
contesting without, and within the goddess Ennihil. i googled ennihill to no avail, i'm presuming she has something to do with birth.
Ennihil the midwives of creation, the ones who would fall, now i def think she has
Unseen hand, predestined plan, gain the whole, would risk the all. the extened fate 'is/exists' works well.
These unwilling ones did witness, and the hidden one of four,
For her mankind was yoked, the son et lumiere bore.. the the son of light?
Summon then the ancient muses: open then the oft-fooled mind,
let us sere the story’s truth, which no one may unbind.
Replace factual history, or so it has been perceived,
with this story, authentic fiction, that does not deceive. the juxtaposition is sharp as it should be
On stage, on this world placed was the beloved bastard child of God,
whose many lives, to birth and die, his feet this ground has trod.
So listen man, this is your story, listen with heart and ear,
a story half full, for the end is not yet drawing near.
Omnipotence reached out, and on this stage put this weakling man,
his champion be in God’s place man will make the final stand. i faltered at the beginning, would it read better as 'his champion in God’s place be'
This gambit which could not be lost, risked more than petty nations,
it would risk the toppling of eternity’s foundations. a good closing, i like how gambit allows for some chance, as opposed to the pre-ordination earlier spoke off

III

This love of the three externals such would risk oblivion,
though a story of the gods, pages turn in hearts of man.
Turn the page then back to Eden, she is the connecting node,
gods holy city, though none in her make it their abode,
faintly earth reflects the heavens, they both share the selfsame hymn,
for in heaven she’s the same, she they call Jerusalem. i think these 5 open lines are perfect. though i wondered if a a comma is needed after 'externals' on the first lines?
It has been a mystery that man from Eden was thus tossed,
and would agree the most in all, this was the greatest loss,
How our father Adam, doing that which came most naturally, 'doing that which came most naturally' feels a bit cliché and out of context, plus, wasn't adam, coerced and eve decieved(i think)
should God from this garden banish for curiosity?
The truth, a child remembers only what a child remembers,
as Iron Pyrite is gold, his memories but pretenders,
at face value it cannot be wholly taken, or believed,
to view such as this as whole cloth, one will be deceived. i like the way you explain it but it feels a bit obvious to me, i do like the use of cloth in the context of encompassing a whole
Children in ignorance and innocence will for years be,
such was it with our father Adam, as a child was he.
The story he told, was garbled, as from a child’s point of view,
on to this world, this earth, he walked, his eyes were as brand new.
While in Eden his form was pure, in perfection was he garbed,
unaware was he of the wild and untamed world at large,
and those who walked upon it the same in form yet not in mind,
for like animals these all were, and to the self were blind.good insight
In form he and they the same, as a brother to each and all,
unaware he knew them not, behind Eden’s arching walls.
& called he thus two great trees, one of knowledge and one of life,
according to the first of us, this was what caused all our strife,
she, his lovely mate, by a beautiful serpent was deceived,
and did eat, as did he, the fall caused by this woman Eve.
Cast out by God, say they, into this world, Eden did grieve.
but they remembered, only what was given, and this mistook,
and thus the story written down, and all on earth partook.
Yet, not by guile they did deceive, nor in lies did they conceive,
still, false the story told, as how from Eden they did leave.
Millennia on millennia, twenty thousand years,
this story was retold, although nonsensical and queer.
Lies when learned as truth, are difficult to leave, and truth receive, i love this lines sonics
for the ancient enemy and friend, friend and enemy,
although are two, it is now then difficult to separate,
one from the other, they are brothers, and man, one does hate!
The other, he, man does cherish, though the other did create,
if the choice were his, he would have chosen to abate.
So, that the father does hate his child, and mankind that child is,
but the one who did not create, regards us as though his!
Mankind thus then was adopted by the non-creator god,
and if his brother had his choice, would he on mankind trod.
Thus has confusion, for millenniums, fallen as though rain,
confusing brothers two, as though were one and the same.

the flow in the last part of the stanza feels to be a steady stream, where as at the beginning it feels a little more turbulent. i was thrown with the brother analogy at the end, because of my upbringing i've always thought of god's counterpart as a fallen angel. that could just be me doing a wrong interpretation of your meanings. again these are just my opinions and suggestions for you look over.

will try and give feedback to the rest in a few days.

IV

The high god Enki, a great construct made, to fulfill his pledge,
it ran along his holy house, the ends stood edge to edge.
"Create for us a man, who will be less sorrow than his worth,
a man who thinks, and builds, and plans, and procreates by birth,"
Proclaimed thus Wise Aun(Ah-oon), over all Manifested is he,
"bring the earth from all this world, and over every sea,
mix these earths with blood of all the gods, let Enihil then hold,
to the divine raise up his mind, thus in him spring the soul."
Many years of preparation in his sacred place conceive,
many minute alteration did he make to the breed,
The great god Enki, Ea, here from the beginning of the plan,
the bridge of Men, over two hundred millennia spans.

The sands of traits the great god Ea from volcanoes would expel,
mutations small and great the breed transform and to impel,
to completion, till the time El brought the plan to fruition,
when he usurped Enki and denied his contributions.
Thus was the clay ripen over two hundred millennia
a deception kept from below, by the God above.
and thus did El use his brother as but a tool,
then the entire council divine did know that Enki was made the fool,
all because of lack of trust of one sibling to another,
and thus did Enki feel betrayed by his elder brother.
For there is never hate so deep as that that’s based in love
it was thus, this that turned Enki’s eyes away from El above.

A truer hate was never bred, or gestated there a part,
As that which on the waters did brood, hidden in Enki’s heart,
What had been pure devotion to his brother above,
Now turned to blackest poison from this core of love.
This core of deep suspicion was now inherent in every man,
No peace would he find, till this wound he did bind, and always be wandering.
Yet El would’ve healed this wound, so to his brother gave,
The ninety-four great decrees for Enki thus to save.
Thus Enki took this power great, but tainted it with doubt,
And suspiciously did man receive when he gave it out.
And thus was wisdom turned evil, and mired deep in sin,
Greed, pride, and suspicion, were as equals, and folded in.

And thus adulteration, was welded to the purest gold,
No longer pure, no longer good, with pride was bought and sold.
Thus does man lust for knowledge, for power within the holy tree,
Then turns his back, for fear of sin, away from divine decree.
And so has it ever been, since Adam first put a foot on this earth,
The deepest fear of betrayal has ever been with man since his birth.
And thus would Cain kill Abel, from the moment that Eve did conceive,
Thus the fear and jealousy, would bar the way and lead,
Brother set against brother, and arose the suspicion of fathers and mothers,
Always to the veneer of pride, an excuse for theft and murder,
Thus the betrayal of Enki, then gave birth to suspicion in man,
Thus murder and theft, pain and death have seemed the only plan.

The form for this is syllabic, it is to be in alternating lines of 15 and 14 syllables with rhyming couplets. Although this is the model, it is not rigidly held to in the later verses. Dale
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Postlude
(from the end section of Canto II )

The Land of Nod (Song of Enoch)

Once the parent, mistook for God,
where our mothers before had trod,
little hands went reaching up,
to find some solace there.

But no solace in this land,
which lacks for spirit, thus is bland,
where soul and body have been parted,
and claim but desolation.

Reunite the tortured halves,
return the cow now to her calves,
then in the warmth of loving arms,
we will rest and sleep.

For the oft’ divided land,
births the tiger, not the lamb,
and harvest not the golden grain,
nor finds her consolation.

© ~Erthona

[Erthona]

Billy,

A number of the things you bring up will be explained later on, but I will try to address some of them here. If I don't mention something then it means I agree with your assessment, such as

"i faltered at the beginning, would it read better as 'his champion in God’s place be'"

I agree that is an awkward line and needs to be addressed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To a great extent this is based on Sumerian mythology, but it also incorporates information from the mythologies from around the world, especially, Babylonian, Canaanite, Persian, Egyptian, Greek, and Indian (Vedic text). A number of the characters are composite characters, and for those I often use the nearest name, usually either Sumerian or Akkadian, such as Enki/Ea. Ennihil is a composite name which represents both Ninhursag, Enki's half sister, and also the unnamed birth goddesses used as wombs for the initial stages of what would be man, but before he could reproduce. Thus the meaning in the Bible about the tree of knowledge. is also related to knowing, as in Adam knew Eve. As in any story, the characters have to be defined, but that happens along the way, and so "Ennihil" is introduced here simply as

"the goddess Ennihil.
Ennihil the midwives of creation"

So it is both a name and a title. It is the name/title of Ninhursag, the mother goddess, but also the title of any who preform the same function. This will be developed later on as the story unfolds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"found feels a little forced though a good opening to the verse."

Actually, this is suppose to convey the idea of how a woodcarver, "finds" the shape in the wood. In other words the image of man is found in the clay. Also in Sumerian the word for clay and blood are the same word.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"For her mankind was yoked, the son et lumiere bore.. the the son of light? "

Yes, basically. This looks forward to the role of Christ in Canto III. In the Book of Enoch, Noah's father Lamech is freaked out that Noah is very white, because the "gods" look the same way "Satan is refereed to as the Shinning one" in a different book. There is great importance placed on the purity of the human line, because the line is derived from a specific "god" and that line will recombine with the pure "human" line in Mary, and the god Nanna, known to the Jews as Jehovah, in Christ. As this is a large part of what Canto III is about, I'll not try and explain it here. But yes, for "her", the daughter part of "God" will be manifested, or awakened through this process. At this point in time this part of God is unknown to God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'doing that which came most naturally' feels a bit cliché and out of context, plus, wasn't adam, coerced and eve decieved(i think)"

As it says this is a different telling of the tale. The snake/serpent as always represented both life, think of the medical symbol, and the double helix of DNA, and life comes from sex. Man/Adam or Adom is kicked out of Eden because he has been given the secret of procreation, which "god" did not want him to have. This is explained in much greater depth also later on. But note the lines

"The story he told, was garbled, as from a child’s point of view"

in other words the story told in Genesis is the truth of a child trying to explain something he cannot comprehend.

But I do agree it sounds a bit cliche.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the insight and the suggestions, as well as the time it has taken you. I look forward to further comments as you can.

Thanks,

Dale

[billy]

Billy,

A number of the things you bring up will be explained later on, but I will try to address some of them here. If I don't mention something then it means I agree with your assessment, such as

"i faltered at the beginning, would it read better as 'his champion in God’s place be'"

I agree that is an awkward line and needs to be addressed.

it makes it clearer for me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To a great extent this is based on Sumerian mythology, but it also incorporates information from the mythologies from around the world, especially, Babylonian, Canaanite, Persian, Egyptian, Greek, and Indian (Vedic text). A number of the characters are composite characters, and for those I often use the nearest name, usually either Sumerian or Akkadian, such as Enki/Ea. Ennihil is a composite name which represents both Ninhursag, Enki's half sister, and also the unnamed birth goddesses used as wombs for the initial stages of what would be man, but before he could reproduce. Thus the meaning in the Bible about the tree of knowledge. is also related to knowing, as in Adam knew Eve. As in any story, the characters have to be defined, but that happens along the way, and so "Ennihil" is introduced here simply as

"the goddess Ennihil.
Ennihil the midwives of creation"

So it is both a name and a title. It is the name/title of Ninhursag, the mother goddess, but also the title of any who preform the same function. This will be developed later on as the story unfolds.

i realised it was to do with midwifery, and also that it wasn't an earthly one.
so i think it seemed to be more of a prob than it actually was, it was just that i couldn't good Ennihill with to much ease.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"found feels a little forced though a good opening to the verse."

Actually, this is suppose to convey the idea of how a woodcarver, "finds" the shape in the wood. In other words the image of man is found in the clay. Also in Sumerian the word for clay and blood are the same word.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"For her mankind was yoked, the son et lumiere bore.. the the son of light? "

Yes, basically. This looks forward to the role of Christ in Canto III. In the Book of Enoch, Noah's father Lamech is freaked out that Noah is very white, because the "gods" look the same way "Satan is refereed to as the Shinning one" in a different book. There is great importance placed on the purity of the human line, because the line is derived from a specific "god" and that line will recombine with the pure "human" line in Mary, and the god Nanna, known to the Jews as Jehovah, in Christ. As this is a large part of what Canto III is about, I'll not try and explain it here. But yes, for "her", the daughter part of "God" will be manifested, or awakened through this process. At this point in time this part of God is unknown to God.

i'm learning new stuff as i read thanks for the explanations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"'doing that which came most naturally' feels a bit cliché and out of context, plus, wasn't adam, coerced and eve decieved(i think)"

As it says this is a different telling of the tale. The snake/serpent as always represented both life, think of the medical symbol, and the double helix of DNA, and life comes from sex. Man/Adam or Adom is kicked out of Eden because he has been given the secret of procreation, which "god" did not want him to have. This is explained in much greater depth also later on. But note the lines

"The story he told, was garbled, as from a child’s point of view"

in other words the story told in Genesis is the truth of a child trying to explain something he cannot comprehend.

But I do agree it sounds a bit cliche.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the insight and the suggestions, as well as the time it has taken you. I look forward to further comments as you can.

Thanks,

Dale

i'll be doing a few post's in the forum toady an i'll get back onto it tomorrow. in truth i feel a little..a lot out of my depth but i'm enjoying both the poem and the trying to give feedback

[billy]

IV

The high god Enki, a great construct made, to fulfill his pledge, fulfil, feels like one comma too many
it ran along his holy house, the ends stood edge to edge.
"Create for us a man, who will be less sorrow than his worth,
a man who thinks, and builds, and plans, and procreates by birth," i'm taking this as a juxtaposition to genesis. i like that the Sumerian is used for the creation of man because it was the seat of civilisation (a big I think)
Proclaimed thus Wise Aun(Ah-oon), over all Manifested is he, i like 'manifested' for more than one level
"bring the earth from all this world, and over every sea,
mix these earths with blood of all the gods, let Enihil then hold, i though Enihil was a female?
to the divine raise up his mind, thus in him spring the soul." it's probably me but i'm confused as whose mind, and in who spring the soul
Many years of preparation in his sacred place conceive,
many minute alteration did he make to the breed,
The great god Enki, Ea, here from the beginning of the plan,
the bridge of Men, over two hundred millennia spans. were we around 200 thousand year ago and does the Latin millennia work considering the context?

The sands of traits the great god Ea from volcanoes would expel,
mutations small and great the breed transform and to impel,
to completion, till the time El brought the plan to fruition, the evolution here makes some sense of the 200, 000 years. but now it feels as though the 200,000 years aren't long enough.
when he usurped Enki and denied his contributions.
Thus was the clay ripen over two hundred millennia
a deception kept from below, by the God above.
and thus did El use his brother as but a tool,
then the entire council divine did know that Enki was made the fool, the sounds feel really good in this and the above line.
all because of lack of trust of one sibling to another,
and thus did Enki feel betrayed by his elder brother.
For there is never hate so deep as that that’s based in love
it was thus, this that turned Enki’s eyes away from El above. i'm getting a feelling of god and satan , good and bad etc. and i'm sure i'm supposed to.

A truer hate was never bred, or gestated there a part,
As that which on the waters did brood, hidden in Enki’s heart,
What had been pure devotion to his brother above,
Now turned to blackest poison from this core of love.
This core of deep suspicion was now inherent in every man,
No peace would he find, till this wound he did bind, and always be wandering. this translates really well to my god satan comment above (for me)
Yet El would’ve healed this wound, so to his brother gave,
The ninety-four great decrees for Enki thus to save.
Thus Enki took this power great, but tainted it with doubt,
And suspiciously did man receive when he gave it out.
And thus was wisdom turned evil, and mired deep in sin,
Greed, pride, and suspicion, were as equals, and folded in. i can see the garden along with adam and eve here (rightly or wrongly on my part)

And thus adulteration, was welded to the purest gold,
No longer pure, no longer good, with pride was bought and sold.
Thus does man lust for knowledge, for power within the holy tree,
Then turns his back, for fear of sin, away from divine decree.
And so has it ever been, since Adam first put a foot on this earth,
The deepest fear of betrayal has ever been with man since his birth.
And thus would Cain kill Abel, from the moment that Eve did conceive,
Thus the fear and jealousy, would bar the way and lead,
Brother set against brother, and arose the suspicion of fathers and mothers,
Always to the veneer of pride, an excuse for theft and murder,
Thus the betrayal of Enki, then gave birth to suspicion in man,
Thus murder and theft, pain and death have seemed the only plan.

from my last comment to here the beginnings in the christian sense is evident, the transition from the non christian flowed smoothly (if that what it was )

The form for this is syllabic, it is to be in alternating lines of 15 and 14 syllables with rhyming couplets. Although this is the model, it is not rigidly held to in the later verses. Dale

© ~Erthona

of all the verse the last one (not the lude) is my favourite. it moves faster and with more clarity (unless i screwed up hehe) than any of the other verse. it was sonically rather good. and had a sing song quality.
i know my feedback isn't good or professional but i enjoyed getting out of my depth
thanks for an overall excellent experience.

[Erthona]

i though Enihil was a female? She /they are.

"let Enihil then hold," ---act as a womb.
---------------------------------------------------

"to the divine raise up his mind, thus in him spring the soul.""

E.G. raise the mind up towards the divine. In other words make he more like the "gods" and less like an animal.
--------------------------------------------------------
"the 200,000 years aren't long enough."

Yes, that is the point. No other species has progressed even half as quickly as man has. The implication is that man had help. This is also addressed in the idea of the sudden appearance of technologies. Since mankind split from the common ancestor with the great apes, his brain size has doubled several times. From Wiki

"Homo is the genus that includes modern humans and species closely related to them. The genus is estimated to be about 2.3 to 2.4 million years old,[1][2] evolving from australopithecine ancestors with the appearance of Homo habilis. Specifically, H. habilis is assumed to be the direct descendant of Australopithecus garhi which lived about 2.5 million years ago. However in May 2010, H. gautengensis was discovered, a species believed to be even older than H. habilis.[3]

Homo--
The most salient physiological development between the two species is the increase in cranial capacity, from about 450 cc (27 cu in) in A. garhi to 600 cc (37 cu in) in H. habilis. Within the Homo genus, cranial capacity again doubled from H. habilis through H. Ergaster or H. Erectus to H. heidelbergensis by 0.6 million years ago. The cranial capacity of H. heidelbergensis overlaps with the range found in modern humans."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"i'm getting a feelling of god and satan , good and bad etc. and i'm sure i'm supposed to."

Yes and no. Yes you are but it is not what you think it is, or who you think it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"from my last comment to here the beginnings in the christian sense is evident, the transition from the non christian flowed smoothly (if that what it was"

The idea here is to set the record straight,so to speak. I use the Judeo/Christian as it is the most significant to western man.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"i know my feedback isn't good or professional but i enjoyed getting out of my depth"

If a reader is at least half intelligent (and I would say you are at least half if not a tad more ) Then he can give feedback related to clarity, which for me is the area in which one needs feedback the most. Of course technical help and suggestion are always appreciated, but that is probably a lot less beneficial than one might think. Basically, if one can tell me what parts seem to work, and even better why or why not. I do not really need someone to agree or disagree with me in the path I choose to go poetically (philosophically), that discussion ended thirty years or more ago. No, the areas I need help in, are the same areas that any writer needs help in, his blind spots. I know I approach things from a different point philosophically from a lot of others, but my thought is, if it is unclear to you, or you don't get it, or however you wish to phrase it, then I have failed in some way. But I cannot know if I have failed unless someone tells me they don't get it. And sure, sometimes the reason a person doesn't get it can have more to do with their own blind spots, but still, I think it nearly always points to something that is problematic in the writing, and when it does, the fault lies with the writer. But I also realize what I am asking of someone, when I ask them to tell me if they "don't get it". Such and admission leaves one feeling vulnerable to he charge that they don't get it because they are not intelligent enough to do so. Unfortunately, that is an attitude that has been fostered since the advent of Modernism, as a way to defend against legitimate criticism. What it really is, is just a new version of the emperor's new clothes. I try and foster the idea that if one finds something disruptive about a piece, then it is because in some way the piece fails, and that failure is laid at the feet of the writer, not the reader. To address further your comment, I also believe that as one because a better critic, one also becomes a better writer, because what informs the critic is also the same thing that informs the writer. I mean, to me it seems that most "poets" haven't even a clear understanding that poetry is about Truth, but that it could care less about facts. Most people don't even understand to what degree "Determinism" has affected their outlook, since they accept it as reality, yet what poetry would convey can not be arrived at from that sort of outlook, or mind set. Yet, even in physic, especially at the ends (cosmology and subatomic), we cannot even make the assumption (although many do so anyway) that were we capable of comprehending all the factors that go into an event (which we are not), would we be able to say the outcome which occurred, was the only one that could occur. And if science is so far away from what it professes as it's philosophic ground, how much further must poetry be? Do people even understand that there have been periods in our history when admitting that one did not understand was the door into understanding, rather than something one should be ashamed to admit, for doing so admits to something lacking in one's self? This current paradigm is no more reality than any of it's predecessors, it is simply the nearest approximation that we are able to achieve at the current time, but it is an illusion. Science can no more tell you why you should not beat your wife to death when she pisses you off, than poetry can do differential calculus, anymore than science can explain, or even admit that a flag manifold has strange properties when compared to the behavior of a bee (for true absurdity in science read the article at the other end of his link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABumblebee

it seems to be part of human nature to make totally unsupported inferences, and represent these as facts. It at least is responsible for the selling of many books, the type of which whose author's appear on the Art Bell show). BTW if you ever wonder how much truth is in that email you just got warning of beautiful women used as bait to entrap men to become unwilling organ donors, there is snopes.com http://www.snopes.com/
which researches such stuff, and determines just how much is true and how much is fiction, so you don't have too. It has saved me many weeks worth of time. I don't know how often, but it is fairly frequent, that someone sends me an email that states so and so said such and such, and I can tell by what is be attributed to the person, it is not characteristic of them. Thanks to snoops, it takes only a few minutes to check out what was the facts. By being able to rapidly respond and show that the person who sent me the email had been taken in, I have now trained such friends to do my research for me, so they will not be embarrassed. I place a high value on getting other people to do the work so I don't have to!

Dale

[billy]

thanks for the reasoning. (evolution wise) and yes it does make sense.
as does the Enihil holding man. sometimes the trees are obscure in the woods
will read the bee link later, (just got up from an all night session, ex's and daughter's birthday party)