Poetry quote - food for thought?

[LaGitana]

"A poem Is never finished, only abandoned."
- Paul Valéry, 1871-1945

My sister emailed this to me a few weeks ago, asking me if I thought it was true. It just happened that it was days before I joined this forum and this was my response to her:

"I would say in most cases, NO. I finish them and walk away with the mentality that they are complete. I have very rarely, if ever, gone back and rewritten or "tweaked" any of mine. On the other hand, , I do have maybe two or three that I have abandoned but couldn't bear to trash... Only one have I ever gone back to look at only to be stumped by.... I think it was a want of words and not the flow of words that left it in the mix. I suppose that it depends on the poet though."

That was on August 14. Now, on August 27th.... I am tasting foot billy and asking that it not be my last words.... I no longer believe this as a final word. I know that there will be poetry that I write that I won't touch once it's done that first pen down/sign off moment and there will be poetry that I will not have to submit to you all for serious critique because I will finally feel edjumacated enough to just post for pleasure reading (and you can call those produce posts cause you can rid yourselves of the rotting produce at the bottom of your refrigerated bins by throwing them my way!) I have learned to embrace critique with a smile and see what I've been missing all these years!

What do you all think????

[Leanne]

That realisation is one of the biggest hurdles poets have to overcome -- there is (almost) always a better way to say something and you might not think of it until years later, or you might not think of it at all but someone else will. Workshops are a wonderful tool (yes, we're all tools) but even if poets don't like the workshop scenario, we all crave a bit of feedback and anyone who says they write "for myself only" is telling a little bit of a fib. In that feedback, if we're open to it, there will be new ideas and directions -- regardless of whether it's in serious critique, mild or just in the "for fun" section.

There are some poems of mine that I can't bear to touch, but that's usually because they're so godawful I don't ever want to remember writing them in the first place!

[abu nuwas]

The shorter a poem, the more likely it is that one will be thinking oof changing it, if it seems good. There is less leeway.

I do not think writing is much different to other forms of art: if a sculptor keeps chipping away, he will lose everything. If a watercolorist keeps adding colour, even white, it becomes darker and darker -- the whole object of light and luminous vanishes. Even an oil-painter must know when to stop. It may not be perfection, but it may be as good as it can be.

A slightly separate issue, but touching on this, is: do you want the thing you began to end as the best it can be, or the best YOU can make it? I think I still find comments most helpful for the future. Vanity, perhaps.

[billy]

I think yes, Valéry wasn't implying we discarded them, he was implying that we no longer had anything to do with them. we moved on to the next poem; left them be. and in a sense abandoned it. jen say's no and then says "i walk away with the mentality they're done"
if that's not abandonment i don't know what is abu hits the nail on the head. there come a point when we say "enough, i will edit no more" that's the point of abandonment. as he points out; all art is abandoned this way. if we don't, it becomes the 43 three year old son that still lives with mum and never goes out. jmo

[Leanne]

Yep -- or the plastic surgery junkie who ends up looking like a retarded cat.

Editing can become an obsession and it certainly shouldn't be our primary motivation for writing, as perfection is pretty much anathema to art in my opinion -- but it doesn't hurt to always be open to changing things if the time is right for the poem to grow, or the poet for that matter.

[billy]

i remember many years ago, (well not so many really) that i felt most of the poets on a site wrote better than me and to a point, that was indeed the case. because of this i used everything they said in edits, after three or four days i had something which was theirs, half the poem would have disappeared, the subject matter would have changed, and it was shittier than to original to boot. but i thought they knew better and so must be right. stupidly i never realised that what they said was what affected them, get 5 or 6 with different ideas and you end up with a jigsaw puzzle that doesn't fit together. now i look at each piece of feedback and as myself "will it improve 'MY' poem, is it what i want to say"
i used to be improving their poem more often than not . often i always take heed of grammar points and try and remember them. (todd pulled me on some small i's which i'll sort out later) for me that kind of help is invaluable. gone are the days of using everything i'm given, poems end up abandoned now, whereas they never used to be .

[Leanne]

This is such an important thing to remember -- suggestions are ONLY THAT. You are the only person who can write your poem, but your poem can be improved and enhanced by things you gather from around you. At the end of the day, the author is the one who must decide whether a suggestion fits into his/her plan for the poem or just muddies the waters. Maintain control and you'll never feel as though others are hijacking your poem, but always listen.

[billy]

totally agree, i'd also add that using someone elses idea isn't a bad thing either if it enhances your work.

[Leanne]

If I keep agreeing with you I'll probably get a disease... but I do agree, god help me...

[billy]

[poem][/poem]

[Leanne]

[poem]Billy's a wanker
can't write a tanka
really could do with a
bloody good spanka[/poem]

just testing

[abu nuwas]

Without wishing to appear hostile to my dear, dear friend 'Mystic Pumpkin', but in the interests of destroying harmony, I might add that I know artists, who sell, but who have a few items they keep back. They are not sentimental paintings, but ones they are v pleased with, and simply don't want to sell. I suppose that is not different from buying a picture, and hanging it on the wall. I should not feel inclined to then get hold of it, and scrawl over it, or alter in any way. In my house, I have dotted around various covers from 'The Economist' from years back, framed. There is Mao, Harold Wilson standing in the sea, Vietnam, the Twin Towers. I am sure that in the hands of my other dear, dear, friend Tracey E. these would be radically transformed and make a 'statement' of another sort. But if I don't feel disposed to alter these images created by someone else, why would I feel constrained to do other than leave my own unaltered? Or poems?

I think I mean that there is an honorable place for the completed work.

[Leanne]

I have poems I won't touch either, because I am reasonably satisfied that "they'll do". The more accomplished one becomes, the more often this will be the case -- largely because a fair amount of the editing process actually takes place in the head, and so swiftly as to be almost unnoticed, when one is confident and experienced.

[abu nuwas]

I have poems I won't touch either, because I am reasonably satisfied that "they'll do". The more accomplished one becomes, the more often this will be the case -- largely because a fair amount of the editing process actually takes place in the head, and so swiftly as to be almost unnoticed, when one is confident and experienced.

Regretfully falling back to agreement, the corollary of that, is that a greater percentage, if not all, of the poem, will be 'yours', which kind of ties in with the original query and my sub-query rather neatly. Some discussion, and an answer -- never happens in real life, though...

[grannyjill]

This has been a very interesting read. I am still at the stage where I value the input of others and I am willing to look with fresh eyes at things I have written - to the poems' benefit. But, I am not submitting other pieces which (tho' flawed) seem fine as they are. Written, and stored for many years they are like a child (with for example, sticky-out ears) - would I want surgical intervention after all this time? No, the imperfections are part of the child.