was shakespeare a fraud or a plagiarist?

[Leanne]

Ma Leanne likes Ma Lowe
Even tho' she's not slow
To come down hard
On our poor Bard.

Hello Edward I'll bet it's been a long time since you've been a junior member...

[abu nuwas]

I am hoping to be a sewer like you when I grow up.

[Leanne]

I am hoping to be a sewer like you when I grow up.

There. Now you have a more appropriate title, what are your thoughts on Bill the Bard?

[abu nuwas]

Why, thank you! Unfortunately, my eating regime precludes me from gobbling up good old suet-pudding, so this is the nearest I can come to a particular type of heaven -to have it wrapped around my soul, so to speak. And the power you have!

I am unlike you, Leanne, in that I think that Shakespeare was a kind of unfettered genius, both in the plays and sonnets -- though in all honesty, much more in the plays. I am constantly struck by the sheer originality and creativity which shines through in every area. I do think, however, that because he has had such an influence on the language, like Pushkin in Russia, a number of phrases must inevitably seem flatter and duller, and without their original freshness. Of course, he made mistakes, even, for example in some of his most famous pieces: I mean, the Seven Ages of Man. All good stuff, and interesting for its reference, like in Macbeth, to the idea that people are just like actors on a stage --- but SO WRONG when he gets to the 'Pantaloon' bit, and then sanz this,sanz that, sanz everything. It may apply to SOME people , but some of us are quite different.....

It is years since I read Marlowe, and I have never seen a play performed. I recall reading Edward II, and Dr Faustus, but not Mahomet (not likely to be performed any time soon), nor the Jew of Malta. If Wiki is right, he died at 27-- which alone seems to rule him out as a Shakespeare ghost-writer. Funny that so little is known of the life of either one.

[Leanne]

I think the premise for Marlowe being Willy's ghost writer is a staged death, which seems an awful lot of effort for anyone to go to considering he was already quite a successful playwright/poet in his own (heavily indebted) name and suggests a great deal more forethought than most poets are actually capable of, given we're a procrastinating bunch as a rule. As for most of the other theories, I think a few too many people have taken the Gwyneth Paltrow version as fact

It is true that we've become jaded to Shakespeare simply by his ubiquitousness. My aversion to his sonnets likely comes from little more than an inescapable horror of all things soppy and overly sentimental -- though he really did flog that poor expired pony to an horrific degree.

I would rather remember the silly Willy, the man who could destroy his enemies with a single phrase.

Shakespearean Insult Generator

[abu nuwas]

There is another side to all this. Just as with scientific papers, which show research overturning boring long-held views, so with a book seeking to prove that Shakespeare was written by the Pope. In each case, it is easy to see that a paper proclaiming that 'Long-held view correct!' or a book shouting 'Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare!' would either not get published, or if they did, would immediately sink below the waves. That is not to say that research and counter-intuitive insights are to be eschewed, quite the reverse: but it does mean that it is worth flagging up a note of caution in such things.

PS What was the quote you gave above from?

[Leanne]

PS What was the quote you gave above from?

What quote?

You're definitely right in that there's nothing exciting about publishing the obvious -- only the controversial will get any press. I don't see anyone disputing the identity of Chaucer, further back in the depths of antiquity, or Boccaccio -- those poor buggers just aren't interesting enough targets I suppose, or famous in any circles other than the literary.

[abu nuwas]

Despite my perceptive comment about wariness regarding some long-held view being challenged, it had not occurred to me that Shakespeare has a rather lonely place, as the only writer in English whose identity is fought over, beyond the Anglo-Saxon era. And he just happens to be the most famous by far! He is, though, in quite good company: there are the various editors of the Bible, and there is Homer; again, both pretty famous.

You quoted a bit of Marlowe, and I wondered where it came from.

E

[billy]

I think the premise for Marlowe being Willy's ghost writer is a staged death, which seems an awful lot of effort for anyone to go to considering he was already quite a successful playwright/poet in his own (heavily indebted) name and suggests a great deal more forethought than most poets are actually capable of, given we're a procrastinating bunch as a rule. As for most of the other theories, I think a few too many people have taken the Gwyneth Paltrow version as fact

It is true that we've become jaded to Shakespeare simply by his ubiquitousness. My aversion to his sonnets likely comes from little more than an inescapable horror of all things soppy and overly sentimental -- though he really did flog that poor expired pony to an horrific degree.

I would rather remember the silly Willy, the man who could destroy his enemies with a single phrase.

Shakespearean Insult Generator

i suppose marlow doing it for pay would be out of the question?
not that i think he did. as for a staged death. it would have been a lot easier in their day. i can't remember where but i heard marlow enjoyed a gamble, maybe dying off was more beneficial than death. if wiki is anything to go by, staging his death could have been a necessity;

Christopher Marlowe[1] (baptised 26 February 1564; died 30 May 1593) was an English dramatist, poet and translator of the Elizabethan era. As the foremost Elizabethan tragedian,[2] next to William Shakespeare, he is known for his blank verse, his overreaching protagonists, and his mysterious death.

A warrant was issued for Marlowe's arrest on 18 May 1593. No reason for it was given, though it was thought to be connected to allegations of blasphemy—a manuscript believed to have been written by Marlowe was said to contain "vile heretical conceipts". On 20 May he was brought to the court to attend upon the Privy Council for questioning. There is no record of their having met that day, however, and he was commanded to attend upon them each day thereafter until "licensed to the contrary." Ten days later, he was stabbed to death by Ingram Frizer. Whether the stabbing was connected to his arrest has never been resolved

[Leanne]

You quoted a bit of Marlowe, and I wondered where it came from.

E

The poem's from Edward II... or more properly The Troublesome Reign and Lamentable Death of Edward the Second, King of England, with the Tragical Fall of Proud Mortimer. Old Kit was a man of words, for sure

Whether Marlowe was the blackhearted homosexual atheist (Catholic) gambling counterfeiter who couldn't hold his drink (the worst crime of all) or not, at least there's no doubt that he wrote his own plays. Perhaps if Shakespeare had led a more interesting (or nefarious) lifestyle, there'd be no speculation about his veracity either. Of course, his career might have been a bit shorter.

[abu nuwas]

Thanks. Shakespeare did have his 'gap' years. In a way, they were both men of their time, skating on thin religious ice.

Without claiming to be an great critic of poesy, or the theatre of those days, it does strike me that marlowe has a different tone, or timbre altogether; and that make me wonder how great the great critics are.

My bloody laptop is almost dead it's so slow, though all the anti-virus cheerfully tells me it's all danday. I fume!

[billy]

probably as they are now and not all that great at all.
the people it seems were the critics of what was on offer, and royalty (along with it's advisor) the tyrant who either made or broke
the creatives of their time through patronage or displeasure. Marlowe became unfavourable due to alleged heresy mmmm on 2nd thought's maybe the church was the toughest critic of the period.

sorry to hear about the slow connection. make sure you have a good anti virus, some of them are a waste of space, if you want any advice ask over in the software forum.