Detention Center Protest, Trucks, the 90s

[thewilderhen]

God sent me over city lights
the national guard on their way —
When I flowered (flourished) in Ohio
in Bosnia another country gone
lines left etched with only glaciers
no geopolitical meanings

When I drew their souls up
When I saw the canvas furling
Snow mixed with salt, a fire
Helios having no bearing
(clouds, modernity)

When I learned to drive a car
When I thought about them
strung like beads over dashes
I had another (no) country in mind

[dukealien]

God sent me over city lights
the national guard on their way —  em dash suggests continuity... or a break
When I flowered (flourished) in Ohio  "When" suggests simultaneity (variant of "while")
in Bosnia another country gone
lines left etched with only glaciers  perhaps meaning "etched only with" - two good lines here
no geopolitical meanings

When I drew their souls up  refers back to the beginning of the previous stanza
When I saw the canvas furling  sails, or a flag
Snow mixed with salt, a fire
Helios having no bearing  proper name, not a new thought with this line
(clouds, modernity)  sun doesn't matter in the city

When I learned to drive a car
When I thought about them
strung like beads over dashes  three good lines, double "when" again implies simultaneity.  And a fine line, seeing cars from above weaving among the centerline dashes with the deeper meaning of seeing the meta-picture while also moving within it
I had another (no) country in mind  driving is universal, as is learning (how to do it)

In mild to moderate critique:  first, typography and organization are important here because idiosyncratic (capitalization without periods, and white space between stanzas).  Since commas are used, their absence can be interpreted - for example, reading the first two lines as

When I flew over city
lights the national guard on their way

is inadmissible since there is no comma after "city."  Since some lines do not begin with a capital letter, those which *are* capitalized must be the start of something.  The parenthetical words/phrases seem to be discursive (asides or hints to the reader) or alternatives (not).

The poem is very atmospheric, with the theme of being both inside and (viewing from) outside simultaneously most clearly expressed in the final stanza but (looking back)  most grandly in the first ("God sent me").

Which leads, circling back, to the title.  On my first reading, I tried to force this into a political context - was the National Guard suppressing the protest, were there helicopters (oops, no, that's Helios), and so forth.  But with the title, and that very attention-getting first line, it seems the greater theme wrapping that of simultaneity, is being trapped in the smaller but also trapped - detained - in(to) watching the greater.  God sent the narrator, and has not called the narrator back yet.  These are  ruminations of an angel-level observer who's also required to learn driving, who was around when Bosnia was a critical country  (and the Devil saw it was time for a change).

(Strictly speaking, the National Guard - especially when preceded by "the" - is the title of an organization and, like "Helios," should be capitalized.)

Good story, then, expressed in terms that seem opaque at first.  Could, and should, it be made clearer?  I think it could, with a bit more punctuation, but I'm not sure it should be.  The effect is mystical, and finally leads to consideration of how human consciousness works in intelligent people:  seeing the map and oneself in it at the same time, or oneself and the imaginary map all around at the same time.  God works like that, I guess, except that He's both the picture and in the picture at once.

Apologies if over-interpreting, and for the lack of suggestions.  If this is not what was intended,  I hope my errors will show what needs to be clarified.

Thanks for posting!

[thewilderhen]

Thank you, and I am over the moon with you. I did want to fake you out, I did want you to think of the National Guard putting down a protest, and I did want you to wonder about Helios/helicopters, and I did want you to come to the conclusion that the story promised did not fit. I will need to think about what you said about intellect and mysticism. I wanted to convey more terror and mysticism in the sense of being outside your body, fragmented, merging past and present.

If it matters, here are the roots: I was driving on my way to ———. I saw the National Guard out, with their canvas trucks. I thought of my past, and people being killed, and the impermanence of humanity via its infrastructure. But then of course that was not happening, the National Guard was simply out for training exercises, and I drove the rest of the way so carefully, as if I were a new driver.

Another question, possibly more fitting for discussion than a critique dialog: I have viewed the line break as a punctuational sledgehammer, acting itself as a pause or break (in the reading of the poem, if not always the speech of it). So I feel that adding a comma at the end of the line or a period or any other punctuation is really yanking on the red chord to halt.

So as you’ve noticed I don’t like to use commas unless they are interior to the line, for me the line breaks are reminder enough to pause in parsing. Does this belief need to be re-examined? Is it causing interruption to the reader? (I’m being genuine here - Lord knows I’d like to shake Emily Dickinson with her emdashes and endashes and slants and dashes and be like “girl, what do you meannnn????”)

Also, parenthesis and alternatives/negations. Yes, I was trying my hand at apophatism. I like the concept’s application in poetry. Seems like theology and God also snuck in. I’m less of a fan of apophatic theology. And of God.

Thank you, I will think more on this.

[dukealien]

Thank you, and I am over the moon with you. I did want to fake you out, I did want you to think of the National Guard putting down a protest, and I did want you to wonder about Helios/helicopters, and I did want you to come to the conclusion that the story promised did not fit. I will need to think about what you said about intellect and mysticism. I wanted to convey more terror and mysticism in the sense of being outside your body, fragmented, merging past and present.

If it matters, here are the roots: I was driving on my way to ———. I saw the National Guard out, with their canvas trucks. I thought of my past, and people being killed, and the impermanence of humanity via its infrastructure. But then of course that was not happening, the National Guard was simply out for training exercises, and I drove the rest of the way so carefully, as if I were a new driver.

Another question, possibly more fitting for discussion than a critique dialog: I have viewed the line break as a punctuational sledgehammer, acting itself as a pause or break (in the reading of the poem, if not always the speech of it). So I feel that adding a comma at the end of the line or a period or any other punctuation is really yanking on the red chord to halt.

So as you’ve noticed I don’t like to use commas unless they are interior to the line, for me the line breaks are reminder enough to pause in parsing. Does this belief need to be re-examined? Is it causing interruption to the reader? (I’m being genuine here - Lord knows I’d like to shake Emily Dickinson with her emdashes and endashes and slants and dashes and be like “girl, what do you meannnn????”)

Also, parenthesis and alternatives/negations. Yes, I was trying my hand at apophatism. I like the concept’s application in poetry. Seems like theology and God also snuck in. I’m less of a fan of apophatic theology. And of God.

Thank you, I will think more on this.

Reduce your altitude a bit - pleased to have puzzled it out, but not much of a critique provided.

Concerning punctuation:  I agree that in free verse, a line break is equivalent to a comma (or vice versa), making them unnecessary at line ends *unless* grammar happens to require them there.  The reader's eyes do need to snap back, though, so physically more of a distraction (or stoking anticipation).  For poetry in forms, where line ends are dictated by meter, normal grammar rules... though, of course, the poet will have managed the poem so the meter reinforces and uses the line breaks.  As well as other punctuation.  Ideally.

Like the fellow who was writing prose all the while without knowing it, I was not aware of apophatism as a thing - though I use it quite a bit (example:  my "Not Photometry" and "Photometry").   I guess its mystical properties result from concepts that don't have clear opposites and ignoring the null set.

Back to the present case:  letting it marinate for a while is a good choice.  At some point, "I could have done it like that" will pop into your head unbidden, and then you can revise.

[thewilderhen]

Osip Mandelstam is a good master of apophatism (in literary form it is often differentiated as apophaticism). It is hard to find a good translation of all of his work and I do not speak Russian. I am reading How Poems Think by Reginald Gibbons and while I’m troubled with his methods of engagement with Russian-speaking poets, I think I am learning some things. I say I think because old Reg’s methods of engagement gives big “big if true” vibes and I don’t know enough and he doesn’t provide enough evidence for me to be confident. But he keeps getting mentioned when I try to get close to Mandelstam in English.