EVs

[busker]

EV sales are at 12% of new car sales in Australia, a steady climb at a time when public charging infrastructure is still growing and EV models are limited (a BYD/Tesla split mostly).

I didn’t buy an EV 3 years ago because of limited infrastructure 
My next car will be an EV. Excellent value for money in the Chinese brands.

[dukealien]

Interesting. If the infrastructure is in place and can support itself without subsidies, this could be a good deal. In the US, a mostly unmentioned problem is disabled charging ports and stolen pigtails... maybe Australian public-spiritedness can deal with those details. The other issue is how tightly charging infrastructure is tied to the Internet, which can lead to unforeseen outages that don't bother an IC vehicle.

[busker]

Interesting.  If the infrastructure is in place and can support itself without subsidies, this could be a good deal.  In the US, a mostly unmentioned problem is disabled charging ports and stolen pigtails... maybe Australian public-spiritedness can deal with those details.  The other issue is how tightly charging infrastructure is tied to the Internet, which can lead to unforeseen outages that don't bother an IC vehicle.

At an overall level, EV charging supports itself. At specific locations, it would need to be cross subsidised like any infrastructure, such as the road network (subsidised in all countries. Petrol taxes only recover a tiny portion of the costs) and indeed, the electricity network, where incremental costs are socialised (new assets are added to the regulated asset base and cost recovery is applied to the entire user base, not just the incremental users, except in special cases with large, pinpoint industrial loads).

Vandalism has been an issue in Australia, like in the US, but haven't seen any examples of that, just read about it in the papers. 

Charging infrastructure doesn't need to be tied to the internet, but it's a business feature that app-based access is the most common. Internet availability is not an issue other than in truly remote parts. But if there's a charging station, there's a connection to the distribution network, and it's unlikely that you wouldn't have a telecom connection there. 


PS - I have no doubt that even if the business case for EVs hadn't stacked up (which they do now, thanks to Chinese ingenuity in crashing prices and breaking the Tesla monopoly), they should've been subsidised, including the charging infrastructure, on the basis of non debatable positive externalities, like lowering CO2 emissions, improving air quality, and reducing the reliance on a volatile oil market (and associated endless wars).

[dukealien]

We shall have to agree to disagree on what is debatable   .

[milo]

I have owned one for years. I charge at home for the most part but it’s fine for road trips too. I would never want to go back to a gas vehicle

[dukealien]

I have owned one for years. I charge at home for the most part but it’s fine for road trips too. I would never want to go back to a gas vehicle

Strange!  I replied to this, but it seems to have got lost.

Briefly, if you can charge where you stay, EVs can work.  If you have a garage and can afford to put a high-voltage outlet in it, that solves a large part of the problem.

Apartment-dwellers, or anyone who has to depend on public charging stations, no.  Being fortunate in that, you have only to worry about the cost of insurance, repairs, and depreciation.  Those might improve with time...  As it is, all are implicated by how integrated EVs are... which we owe, in large part, to the genius of Mr. Musk.

Sorry, that's all I can remember of the reply!  I'll save a record copy of this in case it gets lost again.

[busker]

I have owned one for years. I charge at home for the most part but it’s fine for road trips too. I would never want to go back to a gas vehicle

Strange!  I replied to this, but it seems to have got lost.

Briefly, if you can charge where you stay, EVs can work.  If you have a garage and can afford to put a high-voltage outlet in it, that solves a large part of the problem.

Apartment-dwellers, or anyone who has to depend on public charging stations, no.  Being fortunate in that, you have only to worry about the cost of insurance, repairs, and depreciation.  Those might improve with time...  As it is, all are implicated by how integrated EVs are... which we owe, in large part, to the genius of Mr. Musk.

Sorry, that's all I can remember of the reply!  I'll save a record copy of this in case it gets lost again.

I live in an apartment near the city, and we have at least two flats here with an EV. I'll probably be the third. So apartment dwelling is not proving to be a barrier. Fast public charging will probably be the way to go in the future though, because even if you live in a house, you won't have a 350kw charger.

You can get 7-22 kw charging in an apartment (2/3 phase).

Incidentally BYD is far more integrated in its EV than Tesla, who don't make their own cells (Panasonic makes them). BYD has also pioneered pack design for LFP batteries, achieving higher energy densities than the prevailing wisdom at the time.

[dukealien]

@busker - Thanks for pointing that out, I'm not very familiar with BYD products (only see them on YouTube videos which tend to be biased for or against).  What I meant is, a highly integrated car (or other complex system, like an F-35) can be very efficient as long as it's working.  When there's a fault (something doesn't work) it can be quite easy to find with BITE (built-in test equipment) but very hard to fix:  you have to replace large parts of the system to include the bit that's gone wrong, or at best pull out large assemblies to get at it.  That's what increases insurance and repair costs:  get a knock that would require frame straightening and some sheet metal replacement in an old IC car, and you're looking at half the body and the battery pan in a Tesla.  And all that is billed at high rates for the big replacement assemblies, expert labor, and amortizing the gear that interfaces with the BITE.

This is not to discourage anyone from buying an EV, including Chinese products (if they ever get certified in the US).  The current state of the art has some gaps, that's all, and they have to be filled with money when you find yourself in one.  Money, and time.

They are fun to drive, though - I get a ghost of that feeling when my hybrid is running in EV mode.  The final outcome, as batteries get better and better, will probably be something like a PHEV where the IC engines get progressively smaller and less used as the EV side improves.  Current PHEVs are OK commuter cars to charge at home and drive 25 miles or so to work, but for road trips you're burning dinosaurs after the first 50 miles.