lyrics subforum

[crow]

I’m posting this with the encouragement of the moderators of this forum. I originally sent it to them as a private message. 

Heresit.

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Argument for a lyrics subforum

Pigpen does something nothing else does: it punches poets in the face. Not because they’re lame or geeks or weirdos, but because they deserve it. The ones that really want to be unsung, quiet armchair poets who produce quality work need that.

It’s a boxing gym for poets. And there’s nothing else like it.

The first response I ever got on the forum was mean. Someone told me what I wrote wasn’t even a poem. (I think it was Milo.) It made my heart race. I tried to justify my work and got slapped for failing to take feedback.

I learned everything from that, and just as much by spending hours providing crit to random works in intensive.

It can do that for lyrics, too.

Lyricists are often more motivated than poets to sharpen and polish their work because they intend to have them performed in front of well-intentioned strangers. Often, the first audience for lyrics is friends and family, whose support is indistinguishable from desert mana. So, having some confidence before going into that room or entering a small venue, matters.

But.

More importantly.

Lyrics are crucial intellectual property. To the extent that quality lyrics provide the genius behind musical ideas, and musical ideas are necessary to support video, and video trumps all, lyrics are the phytoplankton of several crucial creative ecosystems.

For a moment, take that overwrought argument as given. The point is, lyrics are valuable. Economically, creatively, and as a beacon of social interest.

Saying that’s so, it becomes impossibly difficult to explain why they’re so radically understudied. You can get a degree—hell, a Ph.D—in poetry. In film. In screenwriting. In—hell, the f-word—short stories. In you-pick-it.

But to date, there are no academic journals, no endowed university professorships, no subfields in organology for lyricists.

Why?

They’re valuable. They deserve attention. People love singing words. So why aren’t lyrics regarded as worthy of study? And, worse, why are they derided as “not mattering,” as if they’re somehow the shit after a good meal: necessary but hardly the point?

And then, and here’s my pitch: Given how radically understudied lyrics are, I find myself completely unable to write a short essay about them. I have no access to meaningful dialogues about what they comprise.

So, inasmuch as pigpen has offered a vehicle to poets, who are already spoiled by millennia of poetic theory, who need to think about their work in a critical way so much that they’ll let us be mean to them, maybe it can develop this entire field of thought from some gushy primordial soup into a formal, useful, disciplined craft.

I would like Pigpen to set about answering this unanswered question: What the fuck are lyrics? How should they be critiqued? How interpreted? How appraised? How perfected?

Right now, lyrics are a solo pursuit. They are the loneliest elephant in a vast desert. Let’s make them the dirtiest pig in a shallow pool of shit.

Make a lyrics subforum.

That’s my pitch.

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And somehow, instead of Nay, I entered May. My apologies.

[CRNDLSM]

When I came to the pigpen here, I had written 50 plus songs.   I didn't even know what a poem was.  But I had already visited several websites trying to push my lyrics and got ignored and banned and yadayada. 
Here, I posted all my 'lyrics' as poems. And got lots of feedback.

But here, I learned real poetry. Forms and meter and I proceeded to make 50+ more 'songs' out of poems I wrote after being here.

I also turned other people's poems into songs, to see if I could.

For me there is no distinction besides the music.

There is a Tool song 'die eier von satan'  it's pretty sick sounding, you look up the lyrics and it's in German, oh wow, translate the lyrics and it's a recipe for donuts....

My point is, you look up the lyrics.  Not the poem.

If you want rules on lyrics I suggest living in Nashville

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There is a music and media forum here where I also posted all my 'poems' as 'songs' with the music it was intended for. I just don't think this is a place for music critique

[Wjames]

I think that there's a difference between lyrics and poetry - most lyrics I like don't read well as poems but I think are beautiful when combined with the melody and rhythm of a song.

Maybe some Leonard Cohen and Bill Callahan lyrics can work on their own as poems, but for the most part, I think the vast majority of lyrics need the music to work. Songs are about how the words fit and combine with the music imo. I sort of think about it like the music for lyrics equivalent of meter in poetry, the words have to fit the music.

Elliott Smith is my favourite songwriter and I think his songs are extremely poetic, but if I read the lyrics without the music, I would think they're pretty crappy poems. I love Bob Dylan as well, and it's the same thing with him.

I think it would be good to have a forum for lyrics. This is a poetry forum, though, and there are songwriting forums out there, so it could make sense to keep this site just focused on poetry?

I post songs here sometimes because I mostly write poems, and I like this website and I think they're close enough where you can get feedback on a song from people who write poems. I did vote yes because maybe having a song/lyrics section here would motivate me to make more songs.

[Tiger the Lion]

I'm voting in favor, but a 4 part sub forum is more than we need, IMO. 

The Misc. forum was originally designed to facilitate the extension from poetry to lyrics and other forms. 

Over the years, the Misc. forum has been somewhat abused and I am as guilty as anyone. 

Early last year we asked members to kindly post in the crit forums as default, rather than posting poems in Misc. or The Sewer or elsewhere. This has gone pretty well.

I think if we continue to clean up the Miscellaneous Forum it will be a fine place for song lyric commentary. 

Happy to hear all input.

[crow]

So, just, one out-of-the-way, singleton subforum about lyrics?

I mean, please . . . ? I just want a clear sight line on the medium. If that’s a singleton subforum, nostrovia

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I haven’t volunteered to mod, but I’m happy to do it if it sways the scales.

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Wjames—they don’t need the music to work. They need the beats. Let’s crit

[Wjames]

Wjames—they don’t need the music to work. They need the beats. Let’s crit

I disagree, off the top of my head, a good example is my favourite Beach Boys song:



At about 1:30, the simple lyric "I wanna cry" - if I read that to a beat I don't think it would make me feel a thing.

Combined with the melody, it becomes something so beautiful to me. The lyric adds to the melody and turns the next minute of instrumental/vocal "ahhing" into a magnificent crying - the words and the music together synthesizing in something special. When I listen to it, I feel like I'm crying, but it's happy as well. The music would be lovely on it's own, but is made stronger by the lyric - the lyric is nothing without the music in this case.

If I were to read that lyric to a beat and critique it, there's a good chance I would say "I wanna cry" is uninteresting and could easily be improved, when that is the farthest thing from the truth in my subjective opinion.

I think the same way about the lyrics before that as well, the way the words and melody interact elevates them both - but the interaction between the words and music is so clear with "I wanna cry" and what follows.

[CRNDLSM]

How do you write lyrics then 
_        -    -       _        _   -     _
G       a    b     D       D   f# D
to express the melody and beat
-     -   _         -     _    -   -   -       _
B    a  c         a   d    f# g f#    d
that repurpose old clichés?  
-       _   -     -        _    -     _
A      c  a    b       e   f#  g


It's doable

[Wjames]

How do you write lyrics then 
_        -    -       _        _   -     _
G       a    b     D       D   f# D
to express the melody and beat
-     -   _         -     _    -   -   -       _
B    a  c         a   d    f# g f#    d
that repurpose old clichés?  
-       _   -     -        _    -     _
A      c  a    b       e   f#  g


It's doable

I've only written a few songs, but I've only written lyrics either while making the music (playing a few chords on the guitar and singing whatever pops in to the head while doing so), or after the music is already there to fit the music (listening to the music played back and thinking about what would fit while listening to it).

[Quixilated]

To reformat the pigpenpoetry home page to create a new forum is not something Tiger nor I can do.  Only Addy could do it, and I don’t actually know how much of her time and effort would be involved in that request.  Before we ask her to carve an entirely new space into the website, I would need to see many more members posting lyrics for critique than we currently have. There is not yet enough of this type of post to warrant creating a completely separate space to contain it.

As it currently stands, it should be sufficient to post the lyrics in any forum (misc, basic, moderate, intensive …) and simply label the post as ‘lyrics’ to let the commenters know to approach it as lyrics and not as poetry. The same members would be commenting either way (we only have so many active members at the moment), so the label is enough to help them know how to comment. 

Also, it is my belief that the lyrics would receive more traffic and comments in a main forum where they would be seen by everyone than they would in a specialty forum where they would be isolated and perhaps only seen by people with specific interest in music. 

I think that it could be beneficial to create a discussion thread about HOW to critique lyrics, especially focusing on how such critique might be different from how one would critique a poem (for example, repetition and rhyming might have different allowances in lyrics than they would in a poem), so that when people see the lyrics label they know how to approach the post. 

If we eventually have enough people posting lyrics for critique, then we can revisit the idea of creating a separate forum to hold them. (And perhaps there are more people posting lyrics than I realize. Maybe seeing how frequently poets apply the label will give us cause to reconsider?)

I think it is good to have these discussions.  It is helpful for us to hear member’s thoughts and wishes and opinions on any matter so that we can do a better job of maintaining this space in a way that makes you all happy to come here.  

Anyway, this is just my own opinion.  

—Quix

[addy]

Looking at it from my end I think it should be pretty easy for me to create a new subforum if people want it.   But I agree with Quixi that right now we don't really have a clear set of rules and conventions for how to critique lyrics versus a  regular poem, and how that will then be different from the Miscellaneous poetry category. And also it may create even more work for the mods  (though as I understand it someone's willing to volunteer?)

[crow]

Addy,

That was Billy’s concern when I brought this up to him. Who’s going to mod it? I was very intimidated by Billy and Leanne and Milo, and so I didn’t dare volunteer. If you’d allow me to, I’ll mod the subforum. I know what that requires.

That said, it won’t work if it’s just a general lyrics sub with pinned posts about theory or theory posts tagged as such. It needs two subforums. Lyrics for critique and Lyrics theorycraft.

Right now, there is no lyrics theory. We need to invent it. And it’s unfair to saddle someone who wants lyrics crit with a discussion about if “[Pre-Chorus]” is bullshit syntax or not, or if “I” is inherently generic or universal in lyrics vs poetry, or if diction tends to determine melody.

But that’s what would happen without a walled-off theory section.

If I posted lyrics, and the response thread was a long debate about where line breaks go if a song is a polka, I’d rightfully feel neglected.

Give it a month to prove its bona fides. If it shits the bed, kill it. But if it ends up happening, it needs two sections.

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I mean it when I say it, and every response here reflects the idea: We don’t know what lyrics are. Like, nobody does. So it’s been a real challenge to advocate for us carving out a place here to figure it out because I can’t even pose the argument.

But I think we can figure it out. I think we can be the first group to learn a brand new thing. I also think that if we don’t do it, it won’t get done. My God, let’s be intrepid.

[Quixilated]

First, create a discussion thread that sorts out how to critique lyrics.  How is critique for lyrics different than critique for poetry?  Create a solid list of specific guidelines for how to critique lyrics.  Forum or not, that would be a useful tool for members to use when they set out to critique lyrics.

Second, my concern isn’t who’s going to mod it.  The site is slow enough that, if necessary, modding the entire site could almost be done by one or two people (though that would be emotionally taxing).  My concern is who is going to use the forum?  We do not have enough people posting just lyrics to require an entirely separate forum in which to do it (definitely not for two forums). We barely have enough people posting poetry at all. The site is not big enough at the moment to start cutting it into smaller pieces.  

As it currently stands, labeling a post as “lyrics” and having a set of guidelines for how to critique the lyrics is sufficient.  Any discussion of lyrics theory craft can occur in the poetry discussion forum.  

For now, establish what a critique of lyrics  would look like (using a discussion thread), so we can refer to it when people do post lyrics.  And then let’s hope the site eventually grows.

[CRNDLSM]

From our glossaey

Lyric
Originally a composition meant for musical accompaniment. The term refers to a short poem in which the poet, the poet’s persona, or another speaker expresses personal feelings. See Robert Herrick’s “To Anthea, who May Command Him Anything,” John Clare’s “I Hid My Love,” Louise Bogan’s “Song for the Last Act,” or Louise Glück’s “Vita Nova.”

Madrigal
A song or short lyric poem intended for multiple singers.

I guess a lyrics is composed for music with or without music.  A song is the completed composition?

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I would go a step further to say it's only a lyric if the author says it is.  And anything is a lyric if the author says it is

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[Quixilated]

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I would go a step further to say it's only a lyric if the author says it is.  And anything is a lyric if the author says it is

This is my opinion as well.  Lyrics are the words part of a song. If someone has put a poem to music, then that makes it lyrics.  I  thought the only allowance one needs to make when critiquing lyrics is to factor in  the music when suggesting edits that would affect line length, syllable count, repetitions, etc.  I don’t write music, so it won’t bother me if I am wrong.  But that is my current understanding.  If this is not the case, perhaps a discussion that explains in depth what else is involved in a critique of lyrics would be beneficial.

[crow]

Quixilated,

Can we do a live example? I spent the last four hours, just like the last ten years, trying to articulate my intuitions. Can you give me either a set of lyrics to be critiqued or a poem you want to turn into lyrics?

The concerns about whether or not this should be a separate subforum or two can wait. I just want to crit something that a user might post in a lyrics crit subforum.

[Quixilated]

You have already supplied a live example of lyrics critique on Wjames’s “All Too Much.”  I wasn’t asking for an example of critique.  I was asking for a list of rules for critique that can be used as a reference for those who might be new to critique of lyrics.  I want a set of guidelines that are different from the guidelines we use for poetry written out in a helpful list. It can be a collaboration if you post it in a separate discussion thread. 

Also, I will reiterate that the real issue is not what would or would not happen in the forum.  The issue is that we barely have enough members posting as a whole to even keep site going at all.  As far as I can tell, we have about 5-10 members who post consistently.  Others wander in and then back out again, but the weight of the pigpen is being carried by only a handful. It is my opinion that we simply do not have the numbers at present to warrant slicing the site into smaller sections. It just isn’t logical.  I am only one member of the mod team, so my opinion is fractional.  We are still discussing.

The concerns about whether or not it should be a separate sub forum (one by the way, two is not on the table) are the concerns that are relevant to me, so those are the matters I am looking into.  What the critique would look like is not relevant to me because  I know that we have some talented members who can knock their critique out of the park.  If we had a sub forum, these same members would naturally do it justice. I’m not worried about that. 

It’s really just about the numbers. With so few members it is the same five people who would see the lyrics and comment whether they are in misc or somewhere else.  Changing the forum doesn’t change the members who would be commenting, so why make them have to go to yet one more location to find things?  When the site has more members, I would be more open to creating specialized sub forums.

[busker]

I am with Quix on this one, but just out of curiosity, I’ve posted the lyrics to a song I’ve had in my head for a while in Basic: https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-25684.html

I’m interested to see how you’d critique this ant differently to a regular poem, if there is no accompanying recording supplied.

Thanks

[crow]

Quixilated,

I don’t know.

You’re worried this forum is dying, and you don’t want a new subforum dedicated to the most popular poetic form on earth. You’re responding to my saying that I can’t articulate rules for lyrics crit by asking me to start a collaborative thread to establish rules for lyrics crit. I say, let’s try to critique someone’s lyrics, and you say, you did that with someone else already—I didn’t. I told him what he posted wasn’t lyrics, but politely.

I’ll go crit buskers poem tomorrow after work. Busker, if the poem isn’t lyrics, you won’t get much from the lyrics crit.

[Quixilated]

The dictionary defines lyrics as:
1. the words of a song in popular music.
2. a poem of a type that expresses the writer's emotions, typically briefly and in stanzas or recognized forms; a lyric poem.

I was under the impression that if they are trying to put words to music, then it’s lyrics.  I am struggling to understand how you can tell someone the words to their song don’t qualify as lyrics.  I have seen songs where the lyrics contain only a few lines that just repeat, but the song still works.  I have seen songs that would read like a beautiful poem even without the music, but the song still works. The thing that ties these two together is that they are meant to be sung.  What is the criteria you are using to determine lyrics vs non lyrics?  Your meaning is not clear to me.  

I’m not worried the forum is dying.  That is not what I said.  I said we don’t currently have a large enough number of members to fill a new forum with posts.  It did almost die and now it is growing again thanks to the efforts of some of our incredibly dedicated poets.  But it is growing slowly and we do not rush into changes without thought and discussion and trying to determine what the benefits would be and what the draw backs would be and what the rules would be.  

I do find it a little concerning that you can tell someone their lyrics aren’t lyrics but you also can’t articulate the rules you are using to make that call.  Right now, if we made a sub forum for lyrics, the rule would be that it’s lyrics if the OP says it’s lyrics. The purpose of the forum and its  critique would not be to determine whether or not the post is lyrics.  The goal would be to help the poster workshop their words to achieve their own vision for the song.  This site is a workshop for words.  If we make changes to the site it will be because the changes help us to be a better workshop for words.  If you had something else in mind, a more limiting definition of lyrics, then we are not yet on the same page. Perhaps we need to discuss further what you mean when you say “lyrics.”

[CRNDLSM]

Hey crow I'm all about the lyrics crit, if you got some things your working on I would love to have a listen