this is not a poem

[alonso ramoran]

I like the spirit Mark XD

---

CRNDLSM,

I'm touching on a specific kind of exploitation but I agree that exploiting something to the fullest can be a positive thing, of course it just depends on what it is you're exploiting and the context of this exploitation.

I don't think a hunger strike is saying that I don't need what you're dwindling for leverage. I think it is more of the assertion that I need what you're dwindling, so for leverage I will withhold what you need from me, because I'd rather die on my own terms as a human being than under yours as a cog. I think meeting needs is tough but I prefer that struggle over the more divided and alienating one. Btw, when I refer to a divided imagination I'm referring to an individualistic culture; I'm curious about what you mean by your usage of it.

The collective imagination where people do what they can to meet each other's needs, to keep each other from falling into petty competitions, indifference, paranoia, loneliness, deceitfulness, is the only imagination I can see where spirituality will come to us like second nature. I'm not saying someone can't achieve a more spiritual existence in today's world, but I think it would be much more difficult to achieve than in a world where we are largely unburdened from the anxiety-inducing concerns of our day-to-day survival.

---

busker,

Auschwitz can be appropriately classified as hell. Spending a large portion of your life relative to a child in Auschwitz could be hell. On the flip side, a child who is doomed to an early death because of some illness but is surrounded by nothing but love and reassurance could be heaven. Are you maybe saying that a child wouldn't be aware enough to experience heaven or hell, which is why the death of children upends my original theory?

I do like your take on the crucifixion of Jesus though XD

---

TqB,

lmao a fuckknuckle for eternity... I wonder where those with a huge ego who were actually fuckknuckles would go haha

[CRNDLSM]

I'm touching on a specific kind of exploitation but I agree that exploiting something to the fullest can be a positive thing, of course it just depends on what it is you're exploiting and the context of this exploitation. Do you see how big this gets how fast?

I don't think a hunger strike is saying that I don't need what you're dwindling for leverage. I think it is more of the assertion that I need what you're dwindling, so for leverage I will withhold what you need from me, because I'd rather die on my own terms as a human being than under yours as a cog. You reimagined your needs, you need to die on your own terms more than anything anyone can control you with I think meeting needs is tough but I prefer that struggle over the more divided and alienating one.  The only way to take care of everyone's needs is to give up everything you have.  You can't even say what someone else needs. Btw, when I refer to a divided imagination I'm referring to an individualistic culture; I'm curious about what you mean by your usage of it. I'm wondering if mental disabilities would never have come to existence if all needs had always been met.  

The collective imagination where people do what they can to meet each other's needs, to keep each other from falling into petty competitions, indifference, paranoia, loneliness, deceitfulness, is the only imagination I can see where spirituality will come to us like second nature. I'm not saying someone can't achieve a more spiritual existence in today's world, but I think it would be much more difficult to achieve than in a world where we are largely unburdened from the anxiety-inducing concerns of our day-to-day survival. Just give it all up yo.

[DragonBlue]

art isnt much to a perfect world.

art is communication and expression and i don't think a perfect world will ever exist, whatever that is. im sure that even a world that is focused on meeting each other's needs will be imperfect. i think art is everything to humanity, and humanity takes on many shapes

If humanity is an art, then it changes frequently.

[alonso ramoran]

Burn Norton? http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-22409.html
I don't even remember what that piece is about, but it has a similar sound xD

here's a different sort of attack on the argument: Heaven and Hell as conceived in the (typically western) imagination is not the same as Heaven and Hell as conceived by, say, more traditional Christian or perhaps even Jewish circles. Heaven and Hell are one and the same place, life in the presence of God, only for one who loves God such a life is heaven, and for one who doesn't such a life is hell.

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I found this pretty interesting. I don't really see it as an attack tbh, but an argument that helps the blindsides in my argument. "God" is a term that I think means so many different things to people. To me, "God" can mean our humanity as in our ability to feel, share and empathize with one another. The creation of the idea of "God" is something that I feel like can only come from a consciousness that has the ability to empathize. So, I think to truly worship God is to celebrate our humanity: our ability to share and whatnot. To celebrate this, then such a life is heaven and to not such a life is hell.

I forgot about the westernization of these religions and neglected that earlier in the thread. I have heard about how more traditional Christian and Jewish circles have more of a focus on the here and now though and I'd love to read more about it

---

busker,

Something problematic in my argument I forgot to point out is this idea that the souls that are in Hell deserve it. If I extend this to my argument, with a concentration camp being Hell then you can probably see how that is problematic. So I don't know if this idea that unending torment in the name of retribution is viable in any case that isn't a fantasy, which I guess is really what any belief in any sort of afterlife is, to put it cynically.

If we're dealing with the concrete existence of these two things, Heaven and Hell, then it should be less about who deserves to exist in some heavenly or hellish state and more about how those states came to exist. So to us who are living, "how" is a more sacred question than "who"