Standards

[Lawrence]

In the recent spirit of change that seems to be about TPP, I would to propose the implementation of a few rules (gasp) which would, indubitably, be beneficial to the body of poets active on this website.

First rule: A stricter serious critique, with higher, more rigid standards.
In order to critique, one needs to read well. This means means reviewing, comprehending, regarding said poetry in a serious manner. "nice rite, mah duud!" Is NOT an acceptable critique, and imparts no insight to the poet whatsoever; in fact, it hurts the poet's development. It leads them to believe that what they're writing has less imperfections than it actually does. I propose that each written criticism in the SC forum should be, at minimum, two paragraphs. Anything less should be considered insincere, and out of place. Any critique written on this website should brim with insight and relevant information, and demonstrate the concise thought typical of an educated reader. I Hope I don't sound like a pretentious assclown. I'd just like to see Serious Critique become...even more serious; A place where people only post their most toiled-over poetry; The blood, sweat, and tears of their portfolios. This leads to true poetic growth, and nothing else will suffice.

Second: Each poet should be required to critique poetry, as well as write it. If you only write poetry, you're a parasite. If you only critique, you're not a poet. I don't think any number or ratio should be established, but I do believe that "He who posts poetry must also critique."

Actually, that's all that I have. My focus is to make us credible and more respectable (not that we already aren't! ). These changes, if implemented, will cause the quality of SC to shoot up exponentially. Thank you.

[billy]

it will also cause the amount of poetry to decline exponentially.

well you have a valid point, what of the verse by verse critique people give with a two liner at the bottom.
many are as new to critique as they are to poetry. to make it so only the most well detailed of critiques are allowed in the serious critique forum would be to disallow budding critics a chance to spread their wings.

Back to my first comment:
at present we are too few to have restrictions on when and how you can post poetry. as the numbers get higher we will change the requirements. that eventual requirement will be, one poem a day in each section with feedback on at least one poem in the section you post in. but we haven't the numbers to sustain such a rule as of yet.

i'm not sure i agree that if you only write, you're a parasite. as of now to do such a thing is within the rules.

back to the two paragraph question. how big is a paragraph, how many words, how long must they sweat over the critique?

for now i think a serious critique is where you point out at least more than 2 or 3 faults or qualities. personally i do not want a 4chan board when every critique simply rips every poem apart. i could go through most poems and fault them more than you can imagine and do so with valid statements. that said this place will hopefully also be a place where tolerance is allowed. where people aren't damned if they don't spend a day on a critique.

as for the parasite thing...how many in depth critiques have you done and how many poems have you posted? not those few liners but real in depth crits of at least two paragraphs or more. (and i'm not having a go so don't let's be arguing about it )
this site isn't meant to be like the one you left Lawrence. it's meant to be a place for everyone. and if someone does a small crit in the serious critique forum, lets not lash them at the mast for not being the prefect critic. (all just my opinion ;d )

any one else have anything to say.

ps, i missed the (someone who is just a critic is not a poet) line.

i'd love to have two or three people here who never wrote a word of poetry but just gave honest feedback, critique. some can do good crit and be crap at poetry and some really good poets can crit to save their lives.
sorry but any good critic will be welcome here whether he posts poetry or not. (that anyone can give feedback here will never change)

[Lawrence]

"it will also cause the amount of poetry to decline exponentially. "
In the SERIOUS critique section of our forum, of course. But the quality and value of SC would rise, without a doubt. I'd rather produce one excellent poem than 100 mediocre ones, and I think some kick-ass criticism could help elevate the quality of all of our work.
"many are as new to critique as they are to poetry. to make it so only the most well detailed of critiques are allowed in the serious critique forum would be to disallow budding critics a chance to spread their wings."
I'm looking for indications of an effort. It doesn't have to be impeccable or ingenious; it merely needs to display a solid effort. Doesn't the poet deserve that? Doesn't our site deserve that?

"at present we are too few to have restrictions on when and how you can post poetry. as the numbers get higher we will change the requirements. that eventual requirement will be, one poem a day in each section with feedback on at least one poem in the section you post in. but we haven't the numbers to sustain such a rule as of yet. "
I like this and fully support this. It is a great way to go about it.

"as for the parasite thing...how many in depth critiques have you done and how many poems have you posted? not those few liners but real in depth crits of at least two paragraphs or more. (and i'm not having a go so don't let's be arguing about it )"

Billy, you're correct. I've done one or two at the most, but I'm going to change all of that. I'm going to make sure that each poet gets the level of analysis that I'd like to get. I think it'd be better for all of us.
"it's meant to be a place for everyone."
A place for everyone to GROW, yes. I'm just trying to encourage that. Do not get me wrong, I LOVE this site and I'm very thankful for everyone here. You've all been so instrumental in my development. I'm just trying to do my part and raise a few points.

"i could go through most poems and fault them more than you can imagine and do so with valid statements. that said this place will hopefully also be a place where tolerance is allowed. where people aren't damned if they don't spend a day on a critique."
If a determined poet's poetry is heavily criticized, he will do one of two things-
One: Ignore it
Two: Find legitimacy in it so he can and use it to help the poem's growth.
I think that serious is a place people should stay away from if they don't want some fault-finding. Leave those types of people to mild.

I take back my parasite comment. Sounded a bit too mean-spirited, and I hope you're not offended by anything I'm saying.

---

And I also support your critic post. Not to say that I'm wrong about that type of a person, but a great critic would be valuable to this site.

[billy]

"it will also cause the amount of poetry to decline exponentially. "
In the SERIOUS critique section of our forum, of course. But the quality and value of SC would rise, without a doubt. I'd rather produce one excellent poem than 100 mediocre ones, and I think some kick-ass criticism could help elevate the quality of all of our work.

i agree with what you say to a large point, all i can say is lead by example.

I'm looking for indications of an effort. It doesn't have to be impeccable or ingenious; it merely needs to display a solid effort. Doesn't the poet deserve that? Doesn't our site deserve that?

i try and give the best feedback i can, all i can say is lead by example again, and hopefully some will follow. as admin of the whole site i sadly don't get as much chance as i'd like to respond with feedback but i don't think i've missed more that ten poems on the whole site.

"at present we are too few to have restrictions on when and how you can post poetry. as the numbers get higher we will change the requirements. that eventual requirement will be, one poem a day in each section with feedback on at least one poem in the section you post in. but we haven't the numbers to sustain such a rule as of yet. "
I like this and fully support this. It is a great way to go about it.

i think once we get the 25 posting poets target we can set such a rule into motion.

Billy, you're correct. I've done one or two at the most, but I'm going to change all of that. I'm going to make sure that each poet gets the level of analysis that I'd like to get. I think it'd be better for all of us.
"it's meant to be a place for everyone."
A place for everyone to GROW, yes. I'm just trying to encourage that. Do not get me wrong, I LOVE this site and I'm very thankful for everyone here. You've all been so instrumental in my development. I'm just trying to do my part and raise a few points.

as long as a demarcation is made between mild and serious. i'm thankful to any ideas people raise. it's what we need more of Lawrence.

"i could go through most poems and fault them more than you can imagine and do so with valid statements. that said this place will hopefully also be a place where tolerance is allowed. where people aren't damned if they don't spend a day on a critique."
If a determined poet's poetry is heavily criticized, he will do one of two things-
One: Ignore it
Two: Find legitimacy in it so he can and use it to help the poem's growth.
I think that serious is a place people should stay away from if they don't want some fault-finding. Leave those types of people to mild.

you may be right but i'd like to think it's the job of the site to help make a new poet a determined poet. if they're not determined a treatment too harsh will certainly turn them away. serious critique and heavy critique aren't always the same thing, sometimes it takes a lighter hand to guide the skittish.

I take back my parasite comment. Sounded a bit too mean-spirited, and I hope you're not offended by anything I'm saying.

---

And I also support your critic post. Not to say that I'm wrong about that type of a person, but a great critic would be valuable to this site.

no, i'm def not offended.

[Lawrence]

Thanks Billy. I understand, and for now, I'll lead by example.
Good luck with the site! I'll always be here if you need me.

[Leanne]

OK, so I've only been here five minutes and already I have an opinion -- can nobody shut me up? Anyway. A word of advice -- if the onus for critique falls on only a few shoulders, those shoulders will soon fall off. Critique is MUCH harder than actually writing poetry, because we're forced to put ourselves inside someone else's head for a while and we're so very comfortable in our own. A good critique, however, can't be measured by the number of words. I will often take half an hour or more to write a critique, after having read the poem several times (sometimes over the space of a few days), but it might only need a sentence or two because there's no point in waxing lyrical about the bleeding obvious.

There is a serious dearth of good readers on all internet poetry sites. Many people will come up with the old "I'm not qualified to comment" chestnut, which is a complete cop-out -- if you think you're good enough to write the stuff, you must be able to read it. Ideally, in a workshop environment there should be an active dialogue between writers and readers, with writers responding (patiently, of course) to any criticism. I have always made a point of responding to every comment I've received on poems, even if they're completely useless -- they're the ones I just say "thank you" to, and move on. (So if I ever just say "thank you" without any elaboration, it's code for "put some bloody effort in next time or keep quiet".) A dialogue encourages people to comment further and makes them feel as if they're contributing to the creative process (and they are, usually).

I'm afraid I pretty much agree with Lawrence's "parasite" statement. In just a day or so I've noticed that there are certain posters who dominate the poem threads but don't seem to match that with any feedback on anyone else's work. I'm afraid I have a tendency to avoid those who are takers only, because I don't believe they're contributing at all to any sense of community or cooperation. (Additionally, and I can't back this up with solid statistics, it seems to me that they're the ones who rarely show any signs of actual development and write consistently on a single theme or slight variations on same.) However, I have been on sites where there is a demand to maintain a poem-to-comment ratio and unfortunately, while this seems wonderfully altruistic, it doesn't work -- so I believe give-and-take should be encouraged but not enforced. Serious attempts should be made (and I don't know if they have already, because I'm clearly kind of ignorant regarding the internal goings-on of the site) to build the confidence of people who attempt critiques -- more experienced poets should be giving detailed feedback on comments whenever they can, explaining why they will implement certain ideas and why others don't really fit their vision for the poem. That also forces the writer to consider suggestions properly instead of just saying "I'll look at that" without any intent to edit at all. Every poetry site "fosters" poets -- how about really building a great environment for critics also?

To the comment that someone who only critiques is not a poet -- well, I have many poems all over the internet, in journals and in published anthologies. I've tutored poetry at university level and have/ still do edit poetry for several periodicals. I believe that all aspects of poetry are equally important, the reading and criticism no less so than the writing. But at the moment, other than as necessary for illustration purposes, I have absolutely no intention of posting poetry here as I'm simply not in a writing phase. Right now I just prefer to read, gather inspiration and see if I can't be of help to the next great poet of our generation, who will graciously credit me as his/her revered mentor and send me lots of money.

[Todd]

Outside of this thread making me wonder: What ever became of Lawrence? I find that writing and critiquing occupy two different parts of the brain: While I can always critique, I can't always write good poetry. And there are times the poetry is coming fast and furious and I don't want to step out of the flow to critique. I realize people have different levels of comfort in both areas. I would just hope that people would do their best and stretch themselves.

[billy]

we love replies but some prefer to write poetry without giving any in depth replies to others.
once and if we can get a decent amount of posted poetry and poets we can do something about a pro rata
answer and reply scenario. sadly new poetry forums unless a derivative of a well established poetry forum takes an infinity to become populated.