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Did you know God the Mother is alive in Korea? Whatever you research may indicate this is a cult, but people believe it. One of my friends has recently gotten really into it, so much so theyre quitting their job to not work on Saturdays, and they didn't come to our party because they don't celebrate Halloween. I know this is probably a fad, but instead of arguing her anymore about scripture she's scheduled me a 'study' with her elder. What the hell am I thinking? How many studies do I attend until I believe Christ has already come a second time? Until they kick me out and ban me? I might try and record the conversations, anyone wanna discuss or place bets? Maybe offer key points or genuine questions?
Peanut butter honey banana sandwiches
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(10-22-2021, 09:04 AM)CRNDLSM Wrote: Did you know God the Mother is alive in Korea? Whatever you research may indicate this is a cult, but people believe it. One of my friends has recently gotten really into it, so much so theyre quitting their job to not work on Saturdays, and they didn't come to our party because they don't celebrate Halloween. I know this is probably a fad, but instead of arguing her anymore about scripture she's scheduled me a 'study' with her elder. What the hell am I thinking? How many studies do I attend until I believe Christ has already come a second time? Until they kick me out and ban me? I might try and record the conversations, anyone wanna discuss or place bets? Maybe offer key points or genuine questions?
There isn't too much saturation to cult ideas,
usually it's just repeating stuff till' your brain drinks the Kool-Aid.
Maybe that isn't true, report back to me about how this goes.
Probably will just be boring as hell, cus you don't believe in this junk.
Dunno..
Fuck around man. 
Posts: 952
Threads: 225
Joined: Aug 2016
I was there for thirty minutes. It was a slow awkward start but then I got real confused over the days of the week and it escalated to an argument about birthdays the last five minutes really settled it. I kinda feel like I broke the man a little and I don't believe they'll want to talk to me again and they wouldn't give me any literature.
Here's a transcript don't waste your time.
Shuffling sounds, bird caw, horn honk, whistle *phone is in pocket recording as I walk up to church doors*
Me: sorry I was, I originally scheduled it for 9 but I had, changes at work I was gonna try and get in earlier... Nice to meet you
*shake hands at door more shuffling sounds on the way to the study room
Tim: do you attend a church?
Me: this church?
Tim: no, like do you, do you go to church?
Me: I don't, but I was confirmed as a Catholic when I was 25.
Tim: oh Catholic
Me: so I have already some kind of foundational faith, you know?
Tim: okay
Me: And I really want to understand, this is a new thing, cause I mean this started after I was born so it's like, it's, kinda interesting. I looked up a few things.
Tim: okay, so you might have questions about our church.
Me: a few things for sure, but I don't know how much te we have to get into some of that, and I was also hoping maybe I could get some uh literature from y'all, from you know, an inside perspective, so that I can understand better.
Tim: okay
Me:. I- I heard it's the second coming of Christ.
Tim: right
Me: right, and that's very new, you know? It's kinda like an explosive thing.
Tim: okay so uh basically um, I can explain it like, our church *shuffles at his podium and his white board* you know the old testament right?
Me: sure
Tim: OT means old testament, and then uh new testament, and Jesus yeah (he drew a timeline) Jesus Christ came, because you know all Christians we believe that Jesus christ is coming so-
Me: right
Tim: pretty much like God himself came to earth in the flesh. He has a name Jesus. So Jesus Christ he preached the gospel. Yeah, so he came to this earth, in the flesh to deliver the good news. Which is the gospel. But toward the end, toward the end of the apostolic age
Me: did you say Paul?
Tim: apostolic age, you know like uh, like *taptaptap*
Me: so like the acts of the apostles and after that
Tim: yes yes, you know like Jesus Christ he had twelve disciples and they followed Jesus Christ and then, after Jesus Christ died, the disciples they continued, they continued their ministry right, they spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Me: right, it affected all of them so much they devoted the rest of their lives to spreading it.
Tim: exactly
Me: it killed them, they all died.
Tim: toward the end, of the apostolic age, the gospel began to be changed.
Me: toward the end of the apostolic age
Tim: yeah, truth began to be changed
Me: so,
Tim: like uh, you know, Jesus Christ he preached the gospel for 3 years. He got baptized when he was 30, and he began his ministry, and then, at the age of 33, 3 years after his ministry, actually, he was crucified on the cross.
Me: I mean, I know all of that happened, as far as like the specific age he was, I don't know if that's like certain, but, I don't think the specific age quite matters to the message that he was
Tim: so uh my point is, for three years , Jesus Christ gave us all the precious, all the teachings, what we do as a Christian. And he set the example of like you know, keeping the worship services, and he showed us the example of you know, baptism. We follow the teachings of Christ,
Me: right, baptisms been around forever pretty much, and Jesus was baptized.
Tim: baptism was one of the teachings of Jesus, he showed us the example.
Me: I mean I thought I thought they would talk about baptism even through Isaiah, or people you know are just like, cause John the Baptist was baptizing people you know it was something that they did, they'd go to the water and they'd be cleaned and
Tim:. Um, it was different because uh, in the old testament times, you know people were anointed. Whether they was like they poured uh holy oil. When they appoint priest or prophet, it was like a holy ceremony. But when John the Baptist came, he baptized people with water.
Me: you're saying John the Baptist was the first one to baptize with water.
Tim: yes. And then he had a mission. He actually came as the prophet Elijah. I don't know if you know
Me: he was the forerunner. He was preparing the way for Jesus.
Tim: yes, The way for Jesus, and the way Jesus Christ appeared, he said, 'look, the lamb of god, who takes away the sin if the world,' and then he baptized Jesus, in the Jordan river. So that was the baptism of Jesus. And then after his baptism, bible says, he began his ministry. So before 30 years old, before thirty, I don't know what happened.
Me: right nobody really knows.
Tim: so 30 years, the baptism of Jesus Christ is the beginning starting point of the gospel of Jesus. So for three years Jesus Christ he taught us. He taught his disciples. He showed them the example of keeping the Sabbath day. And even he kept the passover with his disciples. He showed them you know all the examples that we should do as Christians.
Me: like, he would teach everybody. But then he would also teach just his little group. He would do sepa- he would explain things that the others wouldnt get.
Tim: because he spoke uh in parables
Me: parables yeah
Tim:. That's why you know, only the disciples have a uh you know
Me: they got to ask him later 'hey what did you mean by this?'
Tim: exactly. So for three years, Jesus Christ gave us the gospel of Christ, but toward the end of the apostolic age this gospel, yeah, began to be changed.
Me: so at the end of the apostolic age, I don't know how far into the history you're looking at
Tim: like around AD 100
Me: around AD 100 okay I can see that like all the original people have already been passed. Like, passed on.
Tim: because of revelations, the last book of the bible, it was written by John, apostle John
Me: right,
Tim: right apostle John he died around AD 96 and 105 around there
Me: he was the only one who died of old age. He lived his entire life.
Tim: he was the youngest disciple. But he was uh when he died you know. So. Today I will study about this. Like about church uh history. What happened. Okay. Briefly um, (wipes off white board) if you open the bible you go to book of Matthew, open the bible Matthew 13 um. 13 we can read from verse uh let's see 24. It says, 'jesus told them another parable. This is a parable of the weeds right? And Jesus Christ told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like a man, who's sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weed among the wheat and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the wheat also appeared. The owners servants came to him and said, 'sir, didn't you sow good seed? Where did the weed come from then?' 'an enemy did this' he replied. The servants asked him, 'do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'no,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow up together until the harvest. At that time, I will tell the harvesters first collect the weeds, and bundle it to be burned, then gather the wheat, and bring it to my barn.
Me: I actually already kinda highlighted that one.
Tim: really?
Me: yeah this is a study bible from a long time ago.
Tim: so it was *shuffling and gibberish*
Me: I've gone through a couple phases.
Tim: okay, so uh here, this is (drawing on board) this is the owner. He actually planted the seed right? In the field. According to the parable he planted the seed. He planted the good seed in the field.
Me: do you think he's referring the the father?
Tim:. Well I'm going to show you later. And then it says, while everyone was sleeping the enemy came, and the enemy sow, plant the seed.
Me:. I can see how this applies to the apostolic age, right, towards the end of it, everyone's asleep, it's changing, the weeds are getting into the wheat, so it's like, it's already wheats and weeds here.
Tim: so weeds and wheat they are growing together but the owner said do not pull them up, let them grow together until the harvest.
Me: right. And then he's going to bring his harvesters in to separate them.
Tim: yes yes
Me:. It's not our job to separate them right now it's too late.
Tim: he separates the weeds right? He's going to throw the weeds into the fire. And then he's going to bring all the good seed, the wheat, into the barn. So that's the parable pretty much. But we're going to see the interpretation of this parable. Because Jesus Christ he continued um here an explanation of the parable. We're gonna read from verse
Me: there it is yeah (seagulls)
Tim: uh 36 it says, then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, 'explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.' so he said at the time they couldn't understand what he means so they ask him, right and what he said, verse 37, the one who sowed good seed is, who? Son of man, Jesus. The good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom, weeds are the sons of the evil and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so we will be at the end of the age. The son of man, will send up his angels and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that cause him and all to do evil. They will be thrown into the fires where there will be wailing, and gnashing of teeth. so as you can see. The owner is the son of man, Jesus the enemy is the devil
Me: literally says it right there.
Tim: and then the field is the world, and the harvest is the end of age. So what does it mean that Jesus Christ the owner came a field and then sowed the seed. As you know he spread the word the gospel
Me: that was his life on earth was the gospel.
Tim:. So the seed, the good seed, stands for gospel, because it's truth. But while everyone was sleeping, the enemy came, he also planted seed. So you see the bad seed stands for falsehood. The thing is, the good seed and the bad seed are growing together, right, until the harvest. So in this world there are uh, the truth, and the falsehood, they are growing together. That's why you see
Me: we can't separate them.
Tim: god can separate them
Me: with the angels at the end of the age
Tim: right. So uh when you study the parable, it says the son of man will send out his angels right to gather the wheat and bring them into the heavenly barn. So of course the barn represents the kingdom of heaven and then the fire represents hell.
Me: weeds gonna burn
Tim: we have to distinguish what is the truth and what is falsehood. So as I explained, Jesus Christ came and then the apostles, continued to preach. But toward the end of the apostolic age, a-post-olic (writing on board) age, the truth began to be changed. If you study the history of Christianity, the church was split into 2. Western church and eastern church, they start actually uh, they adopted a lot of pagan practices. Because western church was essentially you know in Rome. You know Rome right? Roman
Me: right
Tim: Romans they are pagans.
Me: so, I kinda understand what they were trying to do, when they did that
Tim: so um you know, the um there was a man named uh Constantine, I don't know if youve heard about Constantine. He was the emperor of Rome. And then all the emperor's, they actually they hold the title. The title was pontifex maximus. In other words they are the high priest of sun god. So they are sun god worshippers. Pretty much all the emperor's.
Me: I mean most people start somewhere.
Tim: so, emperor Constantine. He abolished the Sabbath. I don't know if we ever, study about the Sabbath, Sabbath means the seventh day. It's a day of worship. So Constantine by his authority he abolished the Sabbath.
Me: I'm going to have to look more into that too because about the whole abolishment thing
Tim: yes please yes, and 321, yeah three twenty one, um actually I have like an evidence book like I can show you like some history book, This is a great, this is historical fact that um, the emperor Constantine abolished the Sabbath and he introduced
Me: he started the Nicene council. Right? Where they were going to actually. Isnt that when they put the bible together into what it currently is?
Tim: I'll write it down 321 was the abolishment of the Sabbath, and then AD 325 at the council of Nicaea, he abolished the passover.
Me: abolished...
Tim: yeah he abolish it.
Me: I don't I don't see that though.
Tim: I can show you in this history book
Me:. It's It's still practiced
Tim: no they didn't he didn't practice, he changed the set time. Because all of gods commands, and all of his feasts, have their appointed time. You have to like keep the Sabbath day on the seventh day. You cannot keep the Sabbath day on any other, any other day. You have to keep the Sabbath day on the seventh day. The Sabbath day is the day of rest. God rested on the seventh day.
Me:. I can understand like his problem at the time though, is he, he's, he has a new religion that is taking over his Roman empire you know?
Tim: exactly
Me: and he has lost most of his credibility
Tim:. That's why he persecuted like Christians and then he tried to unite
Me: he didn't persecute them? he tried to make it where it's more acceptable to everybody.
Tim:. So he persecuted christians he killed Christians that's history
Me: well so did Paul. Lots of people killed christians so did Paul you know.
Tim: Paul he was when he was in Judaism of course yeah
Me: right, so they have to experience the conversion. You know, so it's like Paul is forgiven all of these things and lived the rest of his life
Tim: it's not gods will to kill people mumbles
Me: right and it's crazy to think that he believed that before Jesus you know knocked him off his horse. So it's like, he's got an entire empire of people who believe one thing, that he's trying to get to accept this new thing. And he can't do it himself. So he takes all these gnostic gospels you know? All the ones like, there's even like a gnostic gospel that says Jesus killed a kid. And it's like, these can't be true you know, but at the same time it's part of the gospel that's being spread, it's been warped already. By the time he's got it, it's hard to tell what's even true. So the council was designed to try and take the most reputable stories. That's why they have luke the doctor, they have Matthew and Mark who were supposedly there, and then mean John well obviously stands on his own, and so he tried to do that. Put it all together.
Tim: I understand and of course yeah the Catholic church they tried to out the bible together
Me:. I can't I can't blame Constantine for trying to make it acceptable to be a Christian. You know
Tim:. But you have to understand like what is actually his morals, what he tried to like, because he was as I said he was high priest of sun god.
Me: right, he was losing his power and he knew it.
Tim: he had he disguised himself as a Christian. He converted as a Christian but he was not really Christian.
Me:. It's hard to say for sure. When you do one thing and say another.
Tim: like I said, Jesus Christ he came and he spread the word. And you have to work, you have to obey the words of Jesus gospel of jesus
Me:. You're talking three hundred years later man. All the words have already been warped. The end of the apostolic age
Tim: not at all no no, the disciples they kept their faith. All the followers of Jesus Christ they you know they fled to the mountains and they tried to keep their faith.
Me: they relied heavily on tradition. What were they doing at the time
Tim: what tradition were they they were holding back?
Me: well, they were trying to reenact what Jesus went through.
Tim: tradition of Jesus Christ the teaching of Christ they tried to hold
Me: the apostles sure did
Tim: yeah not just the apostles, the people, they tried to keep their faith but toward the end of the apostolic age had they lost their spirit and they began to follow the false teachings of the Romans. That's what happened that's why Jesus Christ already prophesized that while everyone was sleeping enemy will come. And he is also going to plant the seed.
Me: so you're suggesting that Constantine was kind of the wheat.
Tim: that's the work of the devil. I truly believe that it was the work of the devil. The enemy came to hinder the work of Jesus to hinder the work of the owner.
Me: right right, that started pretty much at the beginning though and it got to that point so he almost seems like part of the harvest, trying to separate the bad stuff, like the gnostic gospels, the stories that are that just too
Tim:. You say the mixture of the truth and the falsehood.
Me: right that started when Jesus was spreading the good word because The devil was there to put the weed.
Tim: no it wasn't cause if you study the bible. The devil couldn't actually do his work, because Jesus Christ was on earth.
Me:. Right so after he's spread the seed with his gospel, like right away the devil came in over night to deceive them
Tim:. That's why Jesus Christ said while everyone was sleeping. In the bible sleeping means that
Me: so at the end of the apostolic age when all the wheats already been mixed up with the with the weeds
Tim: toward the end
Me: right were talking 300 years later. Even After 100 years it was already warped so it 2 extra hundred years later, america from 1775 to 1990
Tim: it doesn't matter truth is truth.
Me: right
Tim: the bible says and when the time comes. All the false teachings, all the false teachings will be gathered and
Me: when the time comes the angels harvest the wheat
Tim:. That's why I'm telling you, we have to go back to the time of Jesus Christ.
Me: and all that will be left is truth.
Tim: we have to obey the words of Jesus Christ. We have to obey the gospel of Jesus. So I'm telling you all the Christians they used to keep the Sabbath day. In other words they used to worship God on Sabbath day. But Constantine he actually abolished the Sabbath and he introduced Sunday worship. There is no Sunday worship in the bible. If you can show me works, wonders in the bible.
Me:. Part of my issue with this is the names of the days themselves. Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday, like close for a month
Tim: seven day cycle came from the bible.
Me: after seven days, that can start anytime
Tim:. What day is the seventh day?
Me: the seventh day is the seventh day after you start. You know? When did you start? Did you start on Monday or did you start on Wednesday? The seventh day is the seventh day.
Tim: so you're telling me it's impossible to keep the Sabbath.
Me:. I think that honestly it's not impossible as long as you know where you started.
Tim:. If you study the history of like uh how the seventh day uh I think you can also research how they did the name and then what day is the seventh day of the week. You can study about it.
Me:. I know hebrew, like the language itself is based on numbers
Tim: when I look at the dictionary, by definition I know that Sunday is the first day of the week.
Me:. Ahh, see I would have always thought it was Monday. Just because it almost doesn't matter.
Tim: no you can look at the calendar too
Me:. Ha the calendar first day of the week
Tim: I can bring the calendar and you can look at the
Me: and the other thing is like Julius Caesar who was around the same time as Jesus if not within a couple of years of him he added two whole months to the calendar. Right? So it's like you have to keep two calendars.
Tim: if you want to talk about those things you can just Google it research cause I'm not a scholar I just go by the opinion of the smart people and history. They are experts, they already know. They acknowledge that Sundays not Thursday. You can take a look at the Oxford dictionary.
Me: I mean, just because my own concept of time can be kind of warped as to which day is which, I'm pretty sure there is literature within your church that explains it?
Tim: no we just go by the rest of the world that's discovered Sunday is the first of the week. That's common understanding.
Me: I mean for me that's one of the hardest things to wrap my head around is it being the first day of the week.
Tim: haha that's why I say you can Google it, you can study about it.
Me: what is the first day of the week.
Tim:. There is some literature that actually explains about it being the first day of the week. And if you open the bible, you go to book of mark. In the book of mark chapter 16. Mark chapter 16 uh verse 9. It says when Jesus rose early on the first day of the week. So here bible says Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week.
Me:. What day was that?
Tim: you know Easter right? He present over Easter right? To commemorate The resurrection of Jesus Christ
Me:. He arose early on the first day of the week so the day he rose was the first day of the week. And that was 3 days after the passover?
Tim: exactly so we always celebrate Easter on Sunday
Me: but that started at a certain time
Tim: it's called Easter Sunday
Me:
Tim: no the thing is, why do people call it Easter Sunday? Because that is the day Jesus Christ resurrected.
Me: but that can be celebrated almost anytime of year. If your celebrating his return.
Tim: what do you mean? No you have to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Which means, do you celebrate your birthday? Can I celebrate your birthday anytime I want?
Me: I mean I feel like you can
Tim: haha no no you have to have common sense. That doesn't make sense why do you celebrate your birthday on the day
Me: I don't celebrate my birthday
Tim: not just you but think about just generally you know they celebrate their birthday on the day they were born. Same thing with the resurrection day. People celebrate Easter Sunday to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Me:. I don't really believe that Jesus was born on December 25th. You know and there's no record of when he was born, so how do you celebrate his birthday if you dont know when he was born?
Tim: well I do know when he was born
Me:. But it doesn't tell us
Tim: at least we know it was December 25th. But again we are not celebrating the birthday of Jesus Christ. We are celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Me:. You don't celebrate the birthday of Jesus
Tim: no do you believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected?
Me: uh yes
Tim: do you believe the power of resurrection?
Me: yes
Tim: then you have to celebrate uh commemorate the resurrection of Jesus Christ correct?
Me: okay, yes.
Tim: then when was the resurrection day
Me: we have to remember that it was a true thing that happened
Tim: when was the resurrection day?
Me: uh I mean it was three days after he died so if you're celebrating when he died
Tim: at least we know what day he was resurrected on, he was resurrected on
Unison: the first day of the week
Tim: that's my point
Me: three days after passover?
Tim: so Sunday is the first day of the week. Even the bible proof that Sunday is the first day of the week.
Me: so he died on Thursday. No he died on friday. Good Friday. Right? Saturday, Sunday, so Sunday is the first day of the week.
Tim: exactly I'm just giving you information, you can do extra research about Sunday being the first of the week
Me: but we're saying that's not true because um so sh because he changed it. In 300 he changed everything. He changed it from Saturday to Sunday.
Tim: who changed it?
Me: Constantine! Right, so it wasn't Sunday, it was Saturday. Exactly and he died on Thursday.
Tim: exactly, wait a minute who died on Thursday?
Me: well he
Tim: Jesus Christ?
Me: yeah he died before he rose again.
Tim: he died on f- Friday.
Me: not of the Sabbath is on Sunday
Tim: what do you mean?
Me: I mean you're saying that it's not okay that Constantine changed it from Saturday to Sunday. Right?
Tim:. Hahaha hold on hold on hold on.
Me: Constantine changed it from Saturday to Sunday you said that
Tim: no I think you are confused Sabbath
Me: was always on Saturday.
Tim: is seventh day (writing on board)
Me: when is the passover supposed to be?
Tim: Sunday, no no no no wait. Sunday is the first day of the week. Right?
Me: according to just in general before Constantine came.
Tim: before Constantine, Sabbath is always seventh day Saturday. But he is the one who changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. And when I said this, you said, 'i don't believe that' who knows
Me: as far as days of the week goes
Tim: who knows Sunday is the first of the week
Me:. I'm trying to take Sunday as the first of the week. I'm trying to lock that into my head here. That's always been the first of the week cause that's when Jesus rose from the dead. Sabbath is on Saturday. So we always practice passover on Friday?
Tim: do you see Sabbath day is the seventh day. Which is Saturday. That's why
Me: that's the day after he died.
Tim:. Sabbath day is Saturday that's why bible says Sunday is the first day of the week. My point is Sabbath day is Saturday. Not Sunday. I think you have views about, too many uh, information and uh
Me: Jesus rested on the Sabbath day. there's a lot of changes lot of changes happening. I've gotta look up the hebrew calendar and Roman calendar and Constantine and Sunday specifically
Tim: you can. I'm just letting you know what we are doing here in our church. We try to go back to time of Jesus and we try to follow the true gospel of Jesus. That's why we don't have Sunday service or celebrate Christmas. Before we go into second coming of Christ and all that but our clarify about you know basic information about the church.
Me: do we celebrate the birth of Jesus at all?
Tim: no we don't, like you said we don't know
Me: do we celebrate our own birthdays cause that doesn't seem right then
Tim: it's a personal choice. To celebrate your birthday.
Me: you don't celebrate Jesus birthday
Tim: because bible doesn't say anything about like celebrate our own birthdays
Me: it doesn't say anything about our birthdays
Tim: if you want to celebrate it go ahead but if you do t want to celebrate it you don't need to.
Me: so if you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, go ahead.
Tim: no we don't know the birthdate of Jesus Christ. How can we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ?
Me: because he was born. He was born. You can celebrate the fact that God came to earth
Tim: when? When? When?
Me: 33 years before he died.
Tim: what day?
Me: why does it matter what day? That's the point.
Tim: that's why you cannot celebrate your birthday because I guess you don't know your date of birth.
Me: Jesus I guess never came from a virgin Mary.
Tim: do you have a date of birth? Do you have a date of birth?
Me: the date of my birth doesn't matter because I could have been born any day of the week.
Tim: what do you mean?
Me: let's say I had been born in
Tim: do you have an ID? Can I see your ID?
Me: I am priveleged with a date of birth but people who come over here from foreign countries that don't know when they were born? How do they determine when they were born? Do we give them their birth date? Do we tell them what day they were born? Cause they don't know. They are from a place and a time that didn't have it.
Tim:. Like I said, you celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ?
Me: I do. I celebrate it on a regular basis.
Tim: you change your words because you said you don't know when people are born so you don't celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ but now you said that you celebrate the birthday of Jesus
Me:. I celebrate it every day of the week.
Tim: when?
Me: every day of the week.
Tim: where does it say to keep the
Me: it doesn't say it anywhere
Tim: it's about tradition right?
Me: well to celebrate the fact that God came to earth that that actually happened that sounds like something that should be celebrated
Tim: if you want to do it go ahead but I'm telling you there is no words in the bible that say we should celebrate birthday of Jesus christ
Me:. Any birth
Tim.: Birthday of Jesus Christ
Me: it does say we can celebrate our birthdays does it say that? It doesn't say that. It doesn't say we can celebrate our birthdays, we probably should not be celebrating them.
Tim: I'm not going to say that because it's not in the bible.
Me: I understand why you can't say that
Tim.: Continue to study John I think you have uh your own understanding of the scriptures and you like to do a lot of research
Me: I definitely do
Tim: continue John, yeah. Our church we just go by the bible. If it's not in the bible I don't want to talk about it.
Me: I appreciate you taking the time *shuffling packing up my stuff walking out*
Tim: *distant muttering*
Me: and to you as well
*Shuffling some keys jingling door closed car starts seat buckle*
Peanut butter honey banana sandwiches
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Alarmingly similar to many of the offshoots of the original "Millerites." - Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists being the most well known. Cult is really not a strong enough word for any of them. Their followers are some of the kindest, most genuine souls you will ever meet, and 100% believe (and practice) what they preach. It's the organizations that are evil. Suicides, broken families, cover-ups of abuse, addiction and mental illness. My advice is to do what you can for your friend.
P.S. Thanks for the transcript. Do you have an audio file?
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10-29-2021, 07:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2021, 08:51 AM by RiverNotch.)
Stuff that stuck out off the top of my head:
1) Actually, the Israelites had ritual bathing long before even King David -- one example is in Leviticus 15.16. "And if the flow of seed go out from a man, then he shall bathe all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even." For a lot of these things, it's a good start to look at Jewish tradition, which tends to be very Biblical: look up "mikveh".
2) Christians still do anointing. It was anointing, after all, that Mary of Bethany did to Jesus in the house of Simon the Leper (see Matthew 26).
3) Biblically, before 30, Jesus was born in the manger, presented at the Temple, then he taught at the Temple as a kid. There are a lot of traditions about Jesus's childhood which are about as old as the Bible, or at least which existed at around the time the New Testament canon was formalized in a universally accepted way by Saint Athanasius, about three to four hundred years after Christ's birth.
4) He taught the apostles how to be Jews, though Jews in a way that even by his own account invalidated much of Jewish tradition. I think even the most virulently anti-semitic Orthodox scholar would admit this.
5) Apostolic comes from "apostolos", which means one who is sent. At least, that's what it meant in Koine, the dialect of Greek during and for some time after Jesus's ministry on earth. The Greek language is a continuum from Ancient to Koine to Medieval to Modern, and the later the Greek, the more intelligible it is to the average speaker, though because of the Greek church's insistence in continuing to use Koine in its epistolary, the Bible is still generally understood there in a colloquial sense.
6) Constantine did not abolish the Sabbath. Jesus allowed for an observance of the Sabbath less protective than that of the Rabbinical Jews (perhaps closer to the observance of the Karaite Jews, who still exist?). St. Ignatius of Antioch, a contemporary of the twelve, allowed for its non-observance. Christians meeting for worship during the first day of the week, called the "day of the Sun" since the Babylonians hundreds of years before, was apparently mentioned in Acts (that, I'm going strictly off wikipedia for), but at any rate the traditional explanation for Constantine making Sunday a Christian holiday is because Christ rose again on a Sunday, the eighth day, the Lord's day. Consideration for pagans was not implied by the day being called the "day of the Sun", but I'll grant that it could have influenced Constantine's decision. More important to this is the anxiety already present during St. Paul's time, about Christians Jews allowing Gentiles into the fold, and later about Christians separating themselves from the Jews.
Related to this is what I consider to be the shameful attribution to "pagan tradition" of things the Christians actually stole from the Jews, a trend which as far as I can tell became prevalent from the European Renaissance onwards, when Western writers were anxious to associate themselves with a Greco-Roman heritage their ancestors had rejected, and were growing especially spiteful of their Jewish contemporaries. Christmas, for instance, is not related to Saturnalia. Epiphany, called by the Eastern Church Theophany, was once the feast that celebrated the Birth of Christ, his recognition by the Magi, and his baptism all at once. Later it Christmas and Epiphany were separated, or as I like to think of it (and perhaps some scholars, ancient and modern, do indeed see it; this detail is mostly due to my intuition) they tried to outdo the Jews by making their holy winter days 12+1 rather than eight. Because Theophany was explicitly a take on the Jewish Festival of Lights, ie Hanukkah, whose story, while extrabiblical to both Jews and most Protestants, is still older than Jesus by around a hundred years. Just as Easter, known to the Eastern Church as Pascha, is the Christian Pesach (Passover), or Pentecost....well, the Jews literally have Pentecost, or the Festival of Weeks.
7) Pontifex Maximus is not a title associated with the sun.
More notes forthcoming. Should I do citations?
8) Constantine's time was complicated. Christianity wasn't organized, and from what I remember, the date for Passover, Christian *or* Jewish, wasn't as clear-cut as we'd like to think it was. However advanced the Romans were, they didn't have, say, mechanical clocks or a proper theory of celestial mechanics to make these things easy. But on Christian organization: the Nicene Council was more a deliberation on which dominant strain of Christianity the Empire was to follow, either the Nicene one that survives in most Christian denominations today, or the virtually extinct Arian one. There was certainly some violence in its implementation, but, not to excuse Christians, that's pretty much par for the course of any widespread sociopolitical movement.
An aside: St. Nicholas of Myra, what many consider Santa Claus, was a member of that council. Supposedly he punched one of the Arians. Hey, who said "I came not with peace, but with a sword" applies only to Jewish tradition? xD
9) By Jewish and Ecclesiastical reckoning, Jesus died on Friday and rose again after three days -- counting days was inclusive then, so he rose again on Sunday. By modern reckoning, Jesus died on Thursday night and rose again Saturday night or Sunday morning (I don't remember if the exact time of day is specified).
10) I like your point about Christmas, because that's sort of what I think much of Protestantism -- yes, not just the cults -- boils down to. "Personal choice". Whatever isn't specified in the Bible can be disposed of. Which I honestly think is kinda stupid, because, at the most, idk, literal level, most people are not expected to learn Greek and Hebrew. Rabbinical Jews are very Biblical -- every thing they do is tied to a citation of the Torah -- but, in tacit acknowledgement of this dilemma, most people are educated in a specific way of reading the Bible, one which is informed in the right historical context, or at least the sort of historical context whose survival determined its rightness. It's the same exact thing with the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and the Catholic Church. It becomes a little shakier with High Church Protestants, like the Anglicans or the Lutherans, who were so bent on correcting the excesses of their originals they started to ignore this essential basis on tradition, and utter pandemonium strikes thereafter.
Religion, by definition, is based on tradition. I have grown skeptical of any movement that claims to be a true religion by dispensing wholesale of the traditions of a preexisting one. A theological, and emotional, flashpoint for me here is the Eucharist: most post-traditional sects of Christianity claim that it is not the real blood and body of Christ we consume during said rite. And it is kind of ridiculous, that we consider it the real blood and body of Christ, even when it tastes nothing of flesh. But the Greek term "symbolos" was a far more loaded term in Koine than it is in English, to the point that most Christians, up until the 15th century, were insistent about this realness. And, perhaps more importantly, Christians died because of this insistence. If it were really just "symbolic", then it would not have been so prevalent an excuse for the Romans, that we were cannibals.
Of course, this is complicated by what Jesus actually did, which was to dispense of Jewish tradition. Again, "I come not with peace". But those very words were written down years after Christ's death -- about a hundred, according to secular scholarship -- and the prevalent interpretation is that when he spoke of tradition, he spoke of Jewish *oral* tradition, and not of the written down traditions that constitute Scripture. And that interpretation is itself passed down through tradition. Oy vey.
Maybe all religions are just cults. Maybe the term religion refers to cults that have lived past a certain age. Or maybe it's useless to refer to religions, as opposed to, say, religious traditions, and just determine whether one thing or another is the *true* religion if that is the religion you believe was actually revealed, instead of merely developed out of history. Maybe the true religion is something that is revealed to *you*.
Which just circles back to that whole post-traditional dilemma. Another way I look at it is that God must have revealed himself to as many people as he could, not just to the few, and so many people couldn't have been wrong, so many people couldn't have been misled. So then it's a matter of cold statistics?
Me, I try to reconcile that with the examination of logical consistency that is the look at tradition, plus my personal history of when I remember to have received some sort of revelation from God, and I have my choice. Which probably satisfies only the people who subscribe to the same choice (and, even then, not all of them), as well as me. And, hopefully, God.
Or maybe one can determine the correctness of a tradition by its beauty. And, let's be real, Andrei Rublev's icon of the Holy Trinity outstrips any other visual representation of God in that department. xD
(written hastily while groggy and fresh out of sin. pardon any misses xD)
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10-29-2021, 11:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2021, 11:06 PM by CRNDLSM.)
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The first is to ask someone why they believe in these things. What do they get out of it. What are they going to get out of it. What is their own agenda.
The existence of God is irrelevant. If you love God, God exists. If you love a woman, she exists. If you love yourself, you exist. There's no other criteria. A spirit has brutality, because we have brutality. Mercy, because we have mercy. Everything exists in what is. There is no difference between God and the woman you love, or you, or compassion, or strength, or conscience. If God is necessary, God is. If not, not.
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