Brothers

[Jase]

this is a little personal but i lost my older brother a while back and over time i've found myself obsessing and becoming so self-absorbed about times when we were together, beating myself up about what a dick i was to him at times. i just can't get over the fact i will never be able to talk with him again. to try and quell that horrible feeling i tried writing something for him, but it was really hard trying to put down everything and make it work. i'm just telling you this for context and i would still appreciate feedback. thank you.

-----

Those that know will never tell
Those that know choose not to dwell
All but me who sits alone
Dreaming of a lie called home

He was one and she was two
I'm surprised I made it through
I was three or so I thought
But now I see your truth I bought

I fucked it up, a bitter low
But I will never let this go
No one will ever understand
I lost a brother in this land

I tried to learn what I was taught
I tried to see what you had brought
To try take on what you had thought
But you know me, the idiot sort

Many things were said and done
But you made a world for me, for fun
A world of lies, just for me
Now I finally see

You don't care, I know this now
The fact your eyes are dry is how
I know that you don't really care
About the things we did and aired

But even then its all a lie
I fucking hate the fact I cry
Over you and her and why
Do I feel bad for times gone by

Some things I said to one and two
I regret, I really do
I hate myself for those mistakes
I just wish that they weren't all fakes

I know you lied, but I don't care
you think I do, but don't you dare
don't hurt yourself for things you did
the boy I knew when I was a kid

You said I wouldn't take my life
Well just for you I'll live in strife
You made it seem like love, I see
But you know its just the coward in me

I love you so much and cannot find
The words to tell you how out of my mind
I feel right now, slipping down
Slipping down, slipping down

I love you brother, I know that's true
I know it now, I've thought it through
I always have, I always will
Please know that. I always will

Now memories all that's left behind
No trace of you but what I find
Within my head, my fucked up mind
I am so sorry that I was blind

I know you hate me though, I know
I don't know if its what I show
I don't know if its what I know
Just tell me why you hate me so

But that is it, its all she wrote
Its already gone, its already smoke
Nothing but obsession over past
Trying to make that beautiful thing last

Let it go, its long decayed
It may as well have been an age
We will never meet again
We will never meet again

No, there is always time
A twist of fate, a marked line
When we could meet again, at last
But we won't. It is the past

It kills me we left on such bad terms
No way to fix that now, it burns
Wishing for my sibling's return
A wish that never will be, I learn

So, alone, I lie in bed
Thinking things inside my head
Thinking things inside my head
Yes, alone, I lie in bed

I'm given support, advice to sow
But how could they really ever know
About the pain I feel each day
Please just make it go away

I cannot do it justice, see
Just thank your stars you are not me
Trust me, brother, sister, please
This torture has me on my knees

I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand
It hurts so much. Please understand
But you can't, you'll never see
I lost my brother. Please help me

Nobody will ever know
Nobody will ever care
Nobody will ever see
How pointless this life can be

[billy]

while the intro makes me feel as sorry for you as it would for anyone who's lost a love one, it doesn't help the poem much. most of the readers attention becomes focused first on the intro.

now to the poem. in a nutshell it reads as a very weak poem. lines like;

"I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand
It hurts so much. Please understand
But you can't, you'll never see
I lost my brother. Please help me"

take 6 lines to say what can be said in one or two, the rhymes feel forced and more than a little weak

in general you need to cut any wasted or repeated lines away, you need to use some original similes/metaphors and to really think about the end rhymes you use. especially after the intro, {sorry for saying this} i want to feel your pain and emotional upheaval. at present i see, feel to little of it.

this is a little personal but i lost my older brother a while back and over time i've found myself obsessing and becoming so self-absorbed about times when we were together, beating myself up about what a dick i was to him at times. i just can't get over the fact i will never be able to talk with him again. to try and quell that horrible feeling i tried writing something for him, but it was really hard trying to put down everything and make it work. i'm just telling you this for context and i would still appreciate feedback. thank you.

-----

Those that know will never tell
Those that know choose not to dwell
All but me who sits alone
Dreaming of a lie called home

He was one and she was two
I'm surprised I made it through
I was three or so I thought
But now I see your truth I bought

I fucked it up, a bitter low
But I will never let this go
No one will ever understand
I lost a brother in this land

I tried to learn what I was taught
I tried to see what you had brought
To try take on what you had thought
But you know me, the idiot sort

Many things were said and done
But you made a world for me, for fun
A world of lies, just for me
Now I finally see

You don't care, I know this now
The fact your eyes are dry is how
I know that you don't really care
About the things we did and aired

But even then its all a lie
I fucking hate the fact I cry
Over you and her and why
Do I feel bad for times gone by

Some things I said to one and two
I regret, I really do
I hate myself for those mistakes
I just wish that they weren't all fakes

I know you lied, but I don't care
you think I do, but don't you dare
don't hurt yourself for things you did
the boy I knew when I was a kid

You said I wouldn't take my life
Well just for you I'll live in strife
You made it seem like love, I see
But you know its just the coward in me

I love you so much and cannot find
The words to tell you how out of my mind
I feel right now, slipping down
Slipping down, slipping down

I love you brother, I know that's true
I know it now, I've thought it through
I always have, I always will
Please know that. I always will

Now memories all that's left behind
No trace of you but what I find
Within my head, my fucked up mind
I am so sorry that I was blind

I know you hate me though, I know
I don't know if its what I show
I don't know if its what I know
Just tell me why you hate me so

But that is it, its all she wrote
Its already gone, its already smoke
Nothing but obsession over past
Trying to make that beautiful thing last

Let it go, its long decayed
It may as well have been an age
We will never meet again
We will never meet again

No, there is always time
A twist of fate, a marked line
When we could meet again, at last
But we won't. It is the past

It kills me we left on such bad terms
No way to fix that now, it burns
Wishing for my sibling's return
A wish that never will be, I learn

So, alone, I lie in bed
Thinking things inside my head
Thinking things inside my head
Yes, alone, I lie in bed

I'm given support, advice to sow
But how could they really ever know
About the pain I feel each day
Please just make it go away

I cannot do it justice, see
Just thank your stars you are not me
Trust me, brother, sister, please
This torture has me on my knees

I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand
It hurts so much. Please understand
But you can't, you'll never see
I lost my brother. Please help me

Nobody will ever know
Nobody will ever care
Nobody will ever see
How pointless this life can be

[Jase]

now to the poem. in a nutshell it reads as a very weak poem. lines like
"I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand
It hurts so much. Please understand
But you can't, you'll never see
I lost my brother. Please help me"

take 6 lines to say what can be said in one or two, the rhymes feel forced and more than a little weak

really? i don't believe occam's razor always applies. not everything should be said with just the shortest amount of words. sometimes repetition is necessary, and i thought it was for this to emphasize the fact i will never see my brother again, and it fucking hurts and gets worse. so do you really think it would have been better just to use two lines? why is repetition forbidden? and who makes these rules about how many lines it takes to explain something? i thought poetry was supposed to be flexible.

in general you need to cut any wasted or repeated lines away, you need to use some original similes/metaphors and to really think about the end rhymes you use. especially after the intro,  {sorry for saying this} i want to feel your pain and emotional upheaval. at present i see, feel to little of it.

then i guess this isn't for me. i know i asked for feedback and everything but i wasnt really prepared for someone to just call it outright 'weak', so thanks for that. and honestly, i'm being truthful here, i knew i was repeating certain aspects and did it on purpose for the reasons i already stated. it wasnt forced man, i did it on purpose. obviously that must be the 'wrong' thing to do in poetry. i don't know who the fuck makes these rules but yeah, okay. sorry but i don't like using overly-flowery prose because it seems 'over the top' and actually makes it feel less emotional for me. maybe if i quoted fucking shakespeare i'd get a better reaction, but my brother never had time for any of that shit.

whatever. thanks for the fucking feedback about my shitty poem. i won't bother again. sorry bro.

[ellajam]

now to the poem. in a nutshell it reads as a very weak poem. lines like
"I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand
It hurts so much. Please understand
But you can't, you'll never see
I lost my brother. Please help me"

take 6 lines to say what can be said in one or two, the rhymes feel forced and more than a little weak

really? i don't believe occam's razor always applies. not everything should be said with just the shortest amount of words. sometimes repetition is necessary, and i thought it was for this to emphasize the fact i will never see my brother again, and it fucking hurts and gets worse. so do you really think it would have been better just to use two lines? why is repetition forbidden? and who makes these rules about how many lines it takes to explain something? i thought poetry was supposed to be flexible.

in general you need to cut any wasted or repeated lines away, you need to use some original similes/metaphors and to really think about the end rhymes you use. especially after the intro,  {sorry for saying this} i want to feel your pain and emotional upheaval. at present i see, feel to little of it.

then i guess this isn't for me. i know i asked for feedback and everything but i wasnt really prepared for someone to just call it outright 'weak', so thanks for that. and honestly, i'm being truthful here, i knew i was repeating certain aspects and did it on purpose for the reasons i already stated. it wasnt forced man, i did it on purpose. obviously that must be the 'wrong' thing to do in poetry. i don't know who the fuck makes these rules but yeah, okay. sorry but i don't like using overly-flowery prose because it seems 'over the top' and actually makes it feel less emotional for me. maybe if i quoted fucking shakespeare i'd get a better reaction, but my brother never had time for any of that shit.

whatever. thanks for the fucking feedback about my shitty poem. i won't bother again. sorry bro.

Hi, Jase. Your response surprises me. From the Basic Critique forum rules:

...
Post here if:
- you are prepared to accept advice and suggestions to edit your poem
...
Don't take any negative feedback personally -- use it to improve.

If you had a little patience you might have had different responses from other members, but with your hostile response that is unlikely.


Some points you might have asked about if you didn't understand:

When someone speaks of forced rhyme they mean a word seems to be chosen solely for the rhyme instead of searching for the best word or the line seems to be twisted to make the rhyme land at the end.

Repetition is a tool that can be effective when deftly controlled. When the subject of the poem is a huge loss that frequently has enough impact on it own, no reader will forget it, and a poem can be more moving giving a reader a sense of the loss instead of restating the fact.

Unfortunately, your post is an example of how not to respond in a workshop.

[Jase]

yeah, of course. i did this in memory of someone i love so much, how the fuck do you expect me to react when someone calls it "more than a little weak" and gives no good pointers at all? you may as well just say its shit. maybe you shut-ins should try something called a 'shit sandwich', i mean that would have been more appropriate and i wouldn't have reacted badly. if you're all so great at giving advice maybe you should try that instead of just listing everything thats bad about it and not mentioning a single thing you think is good. that isn't how constructive criticism works. was there really absolutely nothing that was worthwhile about it? well i dont fucking care anymore anyway. i tried to do something for him, i failed again, the end. thanks, and you can all go to fucking hell. like i said, no one cares. seriously.

and about the thing with repetition, obviously i know its a massive impact but dont you understand that i repeated it on purpose because that's what its like? i know i didn't do a very good job but its not like i think "my brother is gone forever" just once and then move on with my life. its there all the time in the background and keeps coming back worse and worse. time does not ease it and suicide starts to seem like a good idea, going in circles thinking the same things. its something i will never be able to get over. i tried to convey that but i'm not fucking edgar allan poe. try ramming the rules down my throat some more, that'll work.

yes, i reacted badly. yes, its a touchy subject. yes, the poem is shit. i'm so fucking sorry for that. i've learned my lesson. please close this thread/ban this account.

[Todd]

Jase, look some poems are hard to write. Everyone has tragedy and we're too close to our own to sometimes write it effectively. It can take years to have the necessary distance. Billy did actually give you constructive criticism but this is too near the surface for you to hear it. I'm sure you did everything on purpose--everyone does--that doesn't make it an effective choice. The site's purpose is to help you write better poetry. If you try to stick it out and remember that you're not your poem, you will get better. If you chose to leave I understand that. Critiquing sites aren't for everyone.

Best,

Todd

[Jase]

i apologize to everyone in this thread. i'm taking things personally because its like a very personal thing, but i shouldn't. i understand i've recieved nothing but constructive criticism, i just took it the wrong way. the whole point of it was just to make him something as a form of 'apology' to get rid of some demons but obviously that's a touchy area. i over-reacted and i'm sorry for that, and thank you all for the feedback. i'm just not very good lol.

[ellajam]

Poetry isn't easy but you can do it if you decide to put the work in. Few of us write poems that don't see some edits and reworking, sometimes drastic reworking, but the end product is often noticably better.

If this is something you would like to do and can handle comments without going off on members, you are welcome to repost your poem and work on it here, it only fails if you give up on it. Or not, your choice.

[vagabond]

 Those that know will never tell
Those that know choose not to dwell
All but me who sits alone
Dreaming of a lie called home          why is the home a lie.. isn´t it more like lost?

He was one and she was two     
I'm surprised I made it through  
I was three or so I thought
But now I see your truth I bought        this seems (at least to me) to be about a girl both brothers wanted.

I fucked it up, a bitter low              rhyme is not as important as content…  to the reader lines like “no one will ever understand” will not give much.   maybe something more subjective like “i scream and reach no ears".
But I will never let this go
No one will ever understand
I lost a brother in this land

I tried to learn what I was taught            which teachings?
I tried to see what you had brought
To try take on what you had thought   which thoughts? why did they seem wrong to the subject then?
But you know me, the idiot sort        

Many things were said and done  
But you made a world for me, for fun        in what way?
A world of lies, just for me                           which lies?
Now I finally see

You don't care, I know this now      this seems to belong in the past, since the brother is dead now, so “didn´t care”  but.. concerning content, as a reader I cannot imagine how the lost brother would not have cared after all he did in the two stanzas above.
The fact your eyes are dry is how      so, there´s some accuse, no one perfect, not even the dead. no shame in knowing that.
I know that you don't really care
About the things we did and aired

But even then its all a lie
I fucking hate the fact I cry
Over you and her and why               what role she played remains still too vague
Do I feel bad for times gone by     

Some things I said to one and two       seems somehow too detached to name them by numbers
I regret, I really do
I hate myself for those mistakes
I just wish that they weren't all fakes      mistakes are fakes- how?

I know you lied, but I don't care               lied about what?
you think I do, but don't you dare
don't hurt yourself for things you did       subject does not want brother to feel remorse?
the boy I knew when I was a kid              

You said I wouldn't take my life                 why was it stated in the first place?
Well just for you I'll live in strife       shows that no real value in life is seen by the subject
You made it seem like love, I see
But you know its just the coward in me      feeling of being not respected, I begin to see why the subject doesn´t have an all positive relationship with the brother.

I love you so much and cannot find
The words to tell you how out of my mind
I feel right now, slipping down
Slipping down, slipping down             

I love you brother, I know that's true
I know it now, I've thought it through
I always have, I always will
Please know that. I always will

Now memories all that's left behind
No trace of you but what I find                    actually memories are a trace, maybe write “the only trace of you is what I find..”
Within my head, my fucked up mind
I am so sorry that I was blind                 

I know you hate me though, I know     for what? either you know that or you don´t know you were hated, it´s just a fear (which is bad enough).
I don't know if its what I show
I don't know if its what I know
Just tell me why you hate me so          unsolved business..

But that is it, its all she wrote                  she.. you either need to tell the reader about that (probably) destructive relationship between the three or leave her out, depends on how important it was.
Its already gone, its already smoke     
Nothing but obsession over past
Trying to make that beautiful thing last            

Let it go, its long decayed
It may as well have been an age
We will never meet again
We will never meet again --------this is the most emotional line in the poem to me

No, there is always time                no time travel possible, so just write I wish there were a second chance or something like that
A twist of fate, a marked line
When we could meet again, at last
But we won't. It is the past           

It kills me we left on such bad terms
No way to fix that now, it burns
Wishing for my sibling's return
A wish that never will be, I learn       

So, alone, I lie in bed
Thinking things inside my head          
Thinking things inside my head 
Yes, alone, I lie in bed       maybe instead “things that cannot be said”

I'm given support, advice to sow  
But how could they really ever know      
About the pain I feel each day
Please just make it go away 

I cannot do it justice, see
Just thank your stars you are not me          wishing to trade places? impossible trade.
Trust me, brother, sister, please  
This torture has me on my knees    

I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand              
It hurts so much. Please understand            leave out the plea, though it´s justified, in a poem it does not add to the reader´s empathy
But you can't, you'll never see             
I lost my brother. Please help me    

Nobody will ever know
Nobody will ever care
Nobody will ever see
How pointless this life can be                 maybe  “how pointless life now seems to me”
 
       

I do the same, often put things in rhyme and cloak or distort content by doing so.  I would need a little more explanation/ description to relate better. maybe get rid of the stanzas, it makes it easier to omitt a rhyme that would just be necessary by formality.  and I think for what wants to be said in this poem you can well afford to not care about rhymes.

[Leanne]

Jase, this is Basic Critique so I'm going to go easy on you.  Your feelings are raw and it's hard to put something like this out there for critique, but you have, so here we go:

Those that know will never tell -- consider using "who" instead of "that"
Those that know choose not to dwell
All but me who sits alone
Dreaming of a lie called home -- you set up a good meter but there is always a risk that rhyming couplets will end up sounding trite or forced... we'll see as the poem progresses

He was one and she was two
I'm surprised I made it through
I was three or so I thought
But now I see your truth I bought -- this is not a strong line and it's clear you've selected the words just for rhyme. Remember, at all times you are in charge of the poem, not the other way around.  Rhyme should not dictate word choice.

I fucked it up, a bitter low
But I will never let this go
No one will ever understand
I lost a brother in this land -- though I understand this is how you feel, this stanza is very "tell-y".  There are ways to show how you feel without saying it outright -- you could actually remove this stanza and it would not harm the poem.

I tried to learn what I was taught
I tried to see what you had brought
To try take on what you had thought
But you know me, the idiot sort -- the four lines of the same rhyme do speed the poem up and assist with building tension -- however, they don't say a lot

Many things were said and done
But you made a world for me, for fun
A world of lies, just for me
Now I finally see -- you've lost the meter here -- was this deliberate?

You don't care, I know this now
The fact your eyes are dry is how
I know that you don't really care
About the things we did and aired

But even then its all a lie -- *it's
I fucking hate the fact I cry
Over you and her and why
Do I feel bad for times gone by

Some things I said to one and two
I regret, I really do -- you could try "I still regret", for meter's sake
I hate myself for those mistakes
I just wish that they weren't all fakes

I know you lied, but I don't care
you think I do, but don't you dare
don't hurt yourself for things you did
the boy I knew when I was a kid

You said I wouldn't take my life
Well just for you I'll live in strife
You made it seem like love, I see
But you know its just the coward in me -- this line is long and awkward

I love you so much and cannot find
The words to tell you how out of my mind
I feel right now, slipping down
Slipping down, slipping down

I love you brother, I know that's true
I know it now, I've thought it through
I always have, I always will
Please know that. I always will

Now memories all that's left behind
No trace of you but what I find
Within my head, my fucked up mind
I am so sorry that I was blind

I know you hate me though, I know
I don't know if its what I show
I don't know if its what I know
Just tell me why you hate me so

But that is it, its all she wrote
Its already gone, its already smoke
Nothing but obsession over past
Trying to make that beautiful thing last

Let it go, its long decayed
It may as well have been an age
We will never meet again
We will never meet again

No, there is always time
A twist of fate, a marked line
When we could meet again, at last
But we won't. It is the past

It kills me we left on such bad terms
No way to fix that now, it burns
Wishing for my sibling's return
A wish that never will be, I learn

So, alone, I lie in bed
Thinking things inside my head
Thinking things inside my head
Yes, alone, I lie in bed

I'm given support, advice to sow
But how could they really ever know
About the pain I feel each day
Please just make it go away

I cannot do it justice, see
Just thank your stars you are not me
Trust me, brother, sister, please
This torture has me on my knees

I lost a brother to this land
You really do not understand
I lost a brother by my hand
It hurts so much. Please understand
But you can't, you'll never see
I lost my brother. Please help me

Nobody will ever know
Nobody will ever care
Nobody will ever see
How pointless this life can be

Most of the suggestions I've made I could have repeated a number of times -- so just consider them as one, and be aware that when you set up a meter it's best to stick with it for the whole poem unless you're shifting it deliberately to change pace or mood. I'm not sure that's the case here -- if it is, you haven't quite managed it.  If you're not sure how to use meter, there are a number of practice threads on the site.

These are the hardest poems to write, expunging guilt while expressing grief.  Both of those emotions come through clearly in the poem but I'm left wanting at least one solid, concrete image to hold onto.  I don't feel that the poem allows me to know you, or your brother, as it is largely filled with abstractions and outright telling the emotions rather than showing them.  One descriptive memory instead of hints will allow us to feel empathy and connect with your poem in a meaningful way -- we're not in your head, and we all have our own tragedies, so we know that they're all very different.  You want to do justice to your brother's memory and this is the place to learn how to do that, if you can bear the criticism -- which is of your poem, not of you or your love for your brother.  

I hope this reaction is a one-off.  You've shown through your critiques of other poems that you are capable of analysing from a distance -- it's harder when you're this close to what you're writing about, but it's not impossible.  Good luck.

[billy]

just to put what i said into context. the intro has more emotion than the poem, it should be the other way round.

just an example using only your words;

this is a little personal but i lost my older brother
a while back and over time i've found myself
obsessing and becoming so self-absorbed
about times when we were together,
beating myself up about what a dick i was to him at times.
i just can't get over the fact i will never be able to talk with him again.
to try and quell that horrible feeling i tried
writing something for him, but it was really hard
trying to put down everything and make it work.

it needs a little work, maybe remove some of the filler words but what i'm saying is the intro has an emotional connection.

and most of us have been where you're at right now. losing loved ones is never easy nor is writing about it and reading feedback that cares more about the poem than the author. it will get easier. xx

[Jase]

thank you all so much. and Billy, what you just did there is brilliant. i didn't realize. i'm sorry.

the relationship we had was strange and seemed like love/hate sometimes, but the problem for me is that i loved him more than he realized and would tell him on occassion yet he only ever told me he loved me once, and i think even that was forced at the time. i don't know why he did that. now it's too late and i can never find out why he was reluctant to tell me that. what makes it worse is that a while back when we were hanging around together i heard him talking with his girlfriend while i was out of the room. i didn't hear what she said to him, but i heard him reply "i hate him". i confronted him a few times about it some time after and just outright asked him why he hated me but he'd always just shake his head in annoyance or say something like "don't you know?" implying i'd done something i don't even realize. he wouldn't give me an answer. i don't know if he meant he did love me deep down really, or if he thought i was just too stupid to know what i've done to upset him. when i said:

"He was one and she was two
I'm surprised I made it through
I was three or so I thought
But now I see your truth I bought"

i know its poorly worded, but him being one and her being two is him and his girlfriend. one and two, a pair. i've always thought of myself as weak in comparison to my brother so "i'm surprised i made it through" was meant to mean i was surprised i managed to get through life and try to keep up with him. i thought i was like the third wheel in their relationship in a good way when we hung around together and he sort of confirmed that, making me think the three of us were a group. but it turns out he was lying and didn't really like having me around. he never directly said that to me but looking over everything that was said it's pretty obvious to me it's the truth. stuff like how he would tell me his friends liked me when in reality he was laughing at me with them behind my back. "but now i see your truth i bought" was supposed to express that. sometimes he'd purposely make me feel like a fool in front of others and in a way where he knew i'd know he was doing it on purpose, not even really hiding it from me, but every now and then he would do something really meaningful for me, like stick up for me against his friends or give me encouragement when i was feeling really shitty. i loved him so much for that but its too bittersweet for me to handle sometimes. it fucking hurts.

i'd like to explain every verse but i don't know if people would want that since i've made it probably too personal. i see now that it's hard for a third party to decipher what i'm talking about. like i said, i made it too personal.

Let it go, its long decayed
It may as well have been an age
We will never meet again
We will never meet again --------this is the most emotional line in the poem to me

thanks for that. that part is what rips me up the most. it fucking destroys me. i was such a cunt.

i intend to rework this whole thing and take on board everything you folks have said, thank you so much for the advice. i don't know if i'll be able to post it once i'm finished though because it actually exhausts me with how much it upsets me. i've been advised by a great user here to just keep everything i do and keep going back to it, and i absolutely will. i think it'll take some time before i feel up to reposting a better version though because i can't help feeling like i'm trivializing the whole thing by reworking and reposting it all the time. i don't want to desensitize myself to it but at the same time it's way too painful for me and makes me wish i couldn't feel anything. double-edged sword. in all honesty though if i'm to stay here without him and there is no afterlife then i choose to feel that pain for him. if i did become desensitized i wouldn't be able to live with myself.

sorry for being so sad. thank you all.

[billy]

if you write a piece a know inside you'll hate anything but praise for it don't post it persona; poetry can be very hard to accept most feedback on. i say most because in general it's should be constructive feed back without taking the poet into consideration. [that can always be done via pm] glad you're staying