Translated Poetry

[Magpie]

I was wondering what other people thought about translated poetry. It may seem like an odd question but it isn't really. A while ago I used to read quite a lot of translated poetry such as Goethe and Pushkin and never even considered how different they might be to the originals but then I got to a point where I thought that poetry with rhyme was probably best avoided because of the obvious difficulties in translating it. That was before I knew anything about poetry, now I know still very little about poetry, but enough to know that all poetry is musical in so many different ways and the complexities in translating it accurately must be so much as to make it impossible. Even poems that don't rhyme still have a form of rhythm or they use alliteration, assonance and other sonic devices as a way to express their musical qualities.

I found this quote by Ezra Pound recently, "That part of your poetry which strikes upon the imaginative eye of the reader will lose nothing by translation into a foreign tongue; that which appeals to the ear can reach only those who take it in the original."

He was one of the first poets to start urging other poets to translate poems because he knew how important it was that poems weren't translated by translators without any poetic inclination like a lot of early translations were. So to also add this fact that the translator needs to be as good a poet as the original poet with all the other reasons why a poem is so hard to translate I could start to wonder why anyone would want to read translated poetry. I don't wonder that of course because the answer is obvious, there are so many wonderful foreign language poets that it would be a shame to miss out. But how accurate a representation are we getting. From that Ezra Pound quote I get the feeling that the music must come second when translating. What do others think? Can anyone recommend good translations?

Part of what got me thinking about this again was a Rainer Maria Rilke poem that was posted somewhere on the net. 'The Panther' is quite a famous poem but this wasn't quite the same panther poem that I knew. I researched it a bit and found many many translations of this poem.



There's six of them together for easy comparison, they are all roughly the same with subtle differences. The translation that I knew originally is the W.D. Snodgrass translation which seems to stand out more uniquely than the others especially in the second stanza where he is the only one who mentions axis and orbit which to me indicates that there is no mention of axis and orbit in the original. But by mentioning these two terms he has implied a planet or a world which emphasises the fact that this cage is all of the panthers world. I think he expresses it better than all the other poems, so in some ways he comes closer to the original and its feel by moving away from its original words.

It's something I've thought about for a while, it would be good to hear other peoples thoughts about translated poetry.

[Achebe]

An interesting post. I recently bought translations of the Illiad and the Divine Comedy, choosing from various alternatives.
A good translation should read like a passable poem in the target language. Of the examples you've posted, the Snodgrass one is standout, and I would like to believe it comes closest to capturing the effect of the original. Why?
1. Word economy
2. Enjambment done better than in the Leishman
3. 'Axis' and 'orbit' - you're right, those are the 'right' words to use there

Pound was right, I suppose. Some Chinese poems and Japanese haiku read well in translation, because they paint pictures
Eg (random Li Po): http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/ballads-o...g/#content

The moon shimmers in green water.
White herons fly through the moonlight.
The young man hears a girl gathering water-chestnuts:
into the night, singing, they paddle home together

gathering water chestnuts at night - a great image, and therefore translatable. Same with green water.
'through the moonlight' is weak, perhaps a 'better' translation required for that one.

At the same time, so much poetry is about sonics, that most poems in other languages sound insipid in English.
I don't know any Italian, but I can see that

Mentre che l’uno spirto questo disse,
l’altro piangea; sì che di pietade
io venni men così com’io morisse.
E caddi come corpo morto cade.
(Divine Comedy Canto V)*


has assonance in L3 and alliteration in L4 - certainly Pound-untranslatable. But without them, the lines lose their beauty.
And poetry is all about beauty.

*The final line, in one version translated as 'And I fell as bodies fall, for dead' is still okay, but just about

[justcloudy]

It's late, so here are some random thoughts strung together:
My mom wrote her master's thesis around translating poems from Brazilian Portuguese (chock-full of beautiful assonance) into English. When I see her again this summer I'll have to talk to her about it, because I don't know a whole lot more than that.
I'm fluent in French but would never dare try to write poetry in it, however a few years back when I had much better Portuguese I loved to write in it since the language is so melodic. Going from it to English isn't easy, as the ears are no longer appeased as Pound might say.
Also, an early memory of mine is my dad and I in a bookstore and him reading me the first few lines of the Divine Comedy from different translations and asking me what I thought about each. I still don't really know what I think, and this is an interesting thread and question ambrosial.

[Erthona]

Poets might make for better translators if they have no dog in the race, which I think would be uncommon. So instead of finding the form that best works with the translation, they may try and shoehorn the poem into a preferential one and this shoehorning extends to the critiquing. One must critique the poem before one can translate the poem. The poet-translator may find himself valuing one aspect in the poem above another and so highlights that (unconsciously) in the translation. The bottom line is that a poet will bring certain poetic bigotry to the translation, so while one may get a more smooth or lyrical translation with the poet, there are also pit falls with the poet. So, one is not a better translator of poetry simply by dent of being a poet. That said, the poet does have the inherent talent to be the better translator. Probably one of the best examples currently is Coleman Barks "Rumi" translations.    

Had he not started every line capped, I think I could like Snodgrass' translation very well, the rest are pretty bad. Some, in trying to be poetic, lose the poetry.

dale

[QDeathstar]

I think the immigrants should speak and write in engrish like the rest of us. That way there's no need for translation. Also, I like poems with pictures.

[Magpie]

An interesting post. I recently bought translations of the Illiad and the Divine Comedy, choosing from various alternatives.
A good translation should read like a passable poem in the target language. Of the examples you've posted, the Snodgrass one is standout, and I would like to believe it comes closest to capturing the effect of the original. Why?
1. Word economy
2. Enjambment done better than in the Leishman
3. 'Axis' and 'orbit' - you're right, those are the 'right' words to use there

Thanks for your comments on this Achebe you've made some good points. There is a wikipedia page for the 'panther' poem and it mentions that it has been translated several times by well known translators and then lists a few of them but there is no mention of Snodgrass. In fact I couldn't find the Snodgrass version of the poem anywhere on the net and had to type it out myself, this may be due to some copyright issue but I think it is more likely that it just isn't known that well. So it makes me wonder who is deciding whether a translation is good or bad because we here can all see that the Snodgrass version is by far the better poem. People may not be happy with what could be seen as him 'taking liberties' by using imagery not mentioned in the original. I notice that in the last stanza he uses 'eye' when all the others use 'pupil', he uses imagery that is easier to connect with. 

Perhaps for good poetic translations to be more common then the complete chain of people who make these decisions need to be poets including even the publisher. I can't see that happening.
Pound was right, I suppose. Some Chinese poems and Japanese haiku read well in translation, because they paint pictures
Eg (random Li Po): http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/ballads-o...g/#content

The moon shimmers in green water.
White herons fly through the moonlight.
The young man hears a girl gathering water-chestnuts:
into the night, singing, they paddle home together
I know what you mean about the imagery here although the repeat of 'moon' in the first two lines reads awkwardly and I'm sure the original wouldn't have done so. If I was critiquing it I would suggest to have it like..

White herons fly through the moonlight
that shimmers in green water.

Although it's bad it reads slightly better. For all I know the Japanese may use a different word for when it is the moon's reflection, in which case is untranslatable. Also there may be symbolic meaning in some images that can only be known when the culture is known. It actually makes me realise that the translator has also got to be familiar with the culture of the place where the poem is from which adds further complexities.

gathering water chestnuts at night - a great image, and therefore translatable. Same with green water.
'through the moonlight' is weak, perhaps a 'better' translation required for that one.

At the same time, so much poetry is about sonics, that most poems in other languages sound insipid in English.
I don't know any Italian, but I can see that

Mentre che l’uno spirto questo disse,
l’altro piangea; sì che di pietade
io venni men così com’io morisse.
E caddi come corpo morto cade.
(Divine Comedy Canto V)*

has assonance in L3 and alliteration in L4 - certainly Pound-untranslatable. But without them, the lines lose their beauty.
And poetry is all about beauty.

*The final line, in one version translated as 'And I fell as bodies fall, for dead' is still okay, but just about

This is interesting to see and you're right about how obvious the alliteration and assonance is. I suppose that translation of the last line is about as good as possible to get although the alliteration loses some of it's effect because it has been separated.

Cheers for your thoughts,

Mark

It's late, so here are some random thoughts strung together:
My mom wrote her master's thesis around translating poems from Brazilian Portuguese (chock-full of beautiful assonance) into English. When I see her again this summer I'll have to talk to her about it, because I don't know a whole lot more than that.
I'm fluent in French but would never dare try to write poetry in it, however a few years back when I had much better Portuguese I loved to write in it since the language is so melodic. Going from it to English isn't easy, as the ears are no longer appeased as Pound might say.
Also, an early memory of mine is my dad and I in a bookstore and him reading me the first few lines of the Divine Comedy from different translations and asking me what I thought about each. I still don't really know what I think, and this is an interesting thread and question ambrosial.

Hi JC thanks for your thoughts, this is interesting. The fact that you say you are fluent in French reminded me of something else Ezra Pound said in regards to becoming a better poet.

"Translation is likewise good training, if you find that your original matter wobbles when you try to rewrite it. The meaning of the poem to be translated can not wobble."

I like this quote because apart from it being good advice it uses the wonderful word wobble twice   Alas I only speak or write one language so I am unable to use this advice.

It's interesting that you mention Portuguese because I listen to a lot of Brazilian music, mostly Bossa Nova and mostly instrumental but now and then the brilliant guitarist decides that he will show the world how rubbish he is at singing. For some reason in Brazilian music they quite frequently sing half the lyrics in Portuguese and then half in English, presumably for commercial purposes, it always makes in interesting contrast. There is one song called in English "The Waters of March" which seems to be a series of images one of which I thought was "A truck load of bricks in the soft morning light" which I really liked as an image, but when I got the original lyrics and put them through Google (we just make it up) Translate there was no mention of my image or anything even close, so it seems that someone really was using their creative imagination when translating there.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Mark

Poets might make for better translators if they have no dog in the race, which I think would be uncommon. So instead of finding the form that best works with the translation, they may try and shoehorn the poem into a preferential one and this shoehorning extends to the critiquing. One must critique the poem before one can translate the poem. The poet-translator may find himself valuing one aspect in the poem above another and so highlights that (unconsciously) in the translation. The bottom line is that a poet will bring certain poetic bigotry to the translation, so while one may get a more smooth or lyrical translation with the poet, there are also pit falls with the poet. So, one is not a better translator of poetry simply by dent of being a poet. That said, the poet does have the inherent talent to be the better translator. Probably one of the best examples currently is Coleman Barks "Rumi" translations.    

Had he not started every line capped, I think I could like Snodgrass' translation very well, the rest are pretty bad. Some, in trying to be poetic, lose the poetry.

dale

Thanks Dale, I like what you say about having a 'dog in the race'. You're right which means that it ultimately comes down a series of different compromises regarding all the different aspects of translating, but is the poet the best qualified to decide about these compromises. Whoever it is that is deciding seems to be getting in wrong because the Snodgrass version is the least known of those versions I put together and yet all of us agree that it is by far the better version when judged as a poem. I think we need more creative translations unless of course we are talking about diplomatic translations in which case it isn't a good idea.

Because I wouldn't want the fact that he was of his time to be held against him and this translation I did this

Always passing bars has dulled
his sight so, it will hold no more.
For him, there are a thousand bars;
behind the thousand bars, no world.

The soft walk of his strong, lithe strides
turns in the smallest of orbits
like the dance of force around an axis
where a great will stands stupefied.

Only sometimes, the curtain of his eye
lifts, noiselessly - an image enters,
that runs through his tense, arrested members
into the heart, to die.

Losing those capitals does make a difference when reading it and the places at which the mind wants to pause.

There was another translation of the panther poem that I found which is good but seems to veer too far from the original for me, which ultimately loses its meaning. I may be wrong, see what you think

Think of all the animals you ever heard about
Like rhinoceroses and tigers, cats and mink
There are lots of funny animals in all this world
But have you ever seen a panther that is pink?
Think!
A panther that is positively pink!

Well here he is, the Pink Panther
The Pink Panther
Ev'rybody loves a panther that's pink
He really is a groovy cat
And he's a gentleman, a scholar, he's a acrobat

He's in the pink, the Pink Panther
The rinky-dink panther
And it's as plain as your nose
That he's the one and only, truly original
Panther pink from head to toe
That he's the one and only, truly original
Panther Pink Panther from head to toe!

Cheers,

Mark

I think the immigrants should speak and write in engrish like the rest of us. That way there's no need for translation. Also, I like poems with pictures.

I like pictures with poems.

Or the needless destruction of fruit...


Actually it doesn't have to be fruit, any food will do.

[UselessBlueprint]

I actually have a little information to contribute here. When I first started writing "poetry" in high school -- the kind of writing I prefer to keep locked in a closet -- I was also taking Latin classes. My teachers decided to spend two full years reading and translating Latin poetry. Primarily Catullus, for many reasons, but a little Virgil as well. The greatest effect comes from three different things: 1, knowing the language is still important. If you don't know it, I suggest reading an analysis of original version. 2, accurate translations without any embellishment. This tells you exactly what the poem is saying. If you also know the language well enough, you can catch some double meanings and little ambiguities. 3, reading poetic translations as well -- just don't take them literally.

Often times there is no easy translation for words and phrases. Idiomatic expressions usually fail in translation. Catullus 16 is rather well know and was an obvious favorite to the class of highschoolers -- translating pedicabo and irrumabo into English can take a little creativity. Even worse is the "poetic license" that allows for hapax legomenon to exist. Basiationes (from Catullus 7) has usually been translated as "kissification," but there is no literal translation.

In Catullus 2 and other subsequent poems, the sparrow may at first seem like an innocent pet bird. But Catullus was a neoteric poet, an Alexandrian, he and his subject ("Lesbia") were familiar with the Greek language and Greek poetry. The Greek word for sparrow (at least in his time)  has a second meaning, in the same way that s couple of select synonyms for cats and roosters have secondary meanings in English.

My last professor's favorite example when speaking of translated poetry came from Robert Fagles. Fagles translates the Iliad into English and borrows an interesting phrase from Yeats. But rather than explain it myself, I think the article says just enough with no more.

To understand the images as they are written, a literal and accurate translation is key.
To understand the artistry involved, knowing the language is key.
(Good) Poetic translations can serve to highlight key moments in a foreign piece, potentially enhancing or clarifying otherwise obscure meanings.

(This is speaking only from my own experience)

[next]

Everyone's a translator as they are reading the words of another and translating them into their own words.
Even within the "same" language differences in time, location, culture, occupation -- even the time of day
you happen to read it -- can make a great amount of difference. Ever read a poem of your own that you
wrote ten years ago? It was written by a different person, wasn't it?

[Erthona]

I would say I have read all the major classics, Greeks and Latin and I often wondered to myself, why are these classics if they are so dull and boring. Well, they are not dull and boring (how in the hell could the Iliad be boring?) if translated well, are they? If they do not come alive, find another translation.

Oh yes, the  pink panther. If the translation was meant for elementary children I'm sure it is a fine translation.


dale

[RiverNotch]

I hear Fagles for the Iliad, and the following for pretty much anything Dante is good.
https://etcweb.princeton.edu/dante/index.html

Although I'm a Filipino living in the Philippines, I'm extremely out of touch with local non-English (heh, even English) poetry, and my major isn't at all related. But I suppose reading translated poetry is like reading extant copies of the Bible -- always best to have multiple translations, with one used for liturgical (ie, sounds good) purposes, and all the rest for understanding. And when it comes to poetry translated from, say, any language written in the Latin alphabet, it's pretty handy to have the original, too, in order to get the original sonics right ---- which is why it's really, really hard to read Russian poetry or the Psalms to their fullness-of-meaning.

[Achebe]

...when it comes to poetry translated from, say, any language written in the Latin alphabet, it's pretty handy to have the original, too, in order to get the original sonics right ---- which is why it's really, really hard to read Russian poetry or the Psalms to their fullness-of-meaning.

The original doesn't need to have been written in the Latin alphabet. The earliest copies of the Illiad must have been written down in the Linear B script! All ancient Greek texts of the Illiad are transcriptions. The same goes for the Edda and Beowulf, in the 'Western' world.
What you are saying is that it is handy to have the original rendered in a script that is readable to you.
So nothing stops you or anyone else from reading Li Po, Ghalib, or Pushkin as long as a Latinate transcription is available, which they are (at least for the first two). Also, the examples you have cited suggest an unnecessarily high level of Eurocentrism.

[RiverNotch]

...when it comes to poetry translated from, say, any language written in the Latin alphabet, it's pretty handy to have the original, too, in order to get the original sonics right ---- which is why it's really, really hard to read Russian poetry or the Psalms to their fullness-of-meaning.

The original doesn't need to have been written in the Latin alphabet. The earliest copies of the Illiad must have been written down in the Linear B script! All ancient Greek texts of the Illiad are transcriptions. The same goes for the Edda and Beowulf, in the 'Western' world.
What you are saying is that it is handy to have the original rendered in a script that is readable to you.
So nothing stops you or anyone else from reading Li Po, Ghalib, or Pushkin as long as a Latinate transcription is available, which they are (at least for the first two). Also, the examples you have cited suggest an unnecessarily high level of Eurocentrism.

Italicized: Precisely.

[billy]

if you find a poem with more than one translation (basho's frog pond haiku is a great example) the one you like best is the best translation. if there's only 1 translation and you don't like it just read something else.