when a friend asks for crit

[Lizzie]

Hello all! I'm looking for some guidance. I have a good friend that asked me to critique a book of poetry that she's been working on for 20 years. She didn't intend to have it published, but suddenly got an influx of courage and is wanting to start submitting it for contests and publication. This is great, but it's never been critiqued before. The material tells her personal stories, and so it's a delicate matter. She is a good poet -- she's better than me for sure. She took poetry classes in high school and college, and then just wrote on her own in private. I just started writing poetry this March, so I'm not sure how much help I can be. I can't bring her here because a lot of her work focuses on the experiences of rape victims, and....well....recent events. Anyway, she's an obsessively private person. So, any thoughts on how to approach sensitive material tactfully and how to still be friends after a critique?

Thank you Pig Pen!

lizziep

[Quixilated]

Hi Lizzie,

I don't have great or lots of answers, but I do have a friend who publishes a blog and she always wants me to read it first for suggestions etc.  She's a dear friend and I am always terrified I'm going to offend her.  Mainly my rule for keeping a friendship while tearing apart her work is to follow a few rules: 1. Always, always find all the things you love about the piece and say why you like those parts.  Even if it's just something like "this made me smile."  I wouldn't do that for people I don't know, but it helps a friend remember that you really are reading with love, and that you are looking for both the good and the bad.  2. Then if you do find things that need to change, always explain why you feel the change would make the piece better, like clarity for the reader, etc. Never just say, "take this out" unless you know she can handle it.  3. End again on a positive note and say what you like about the piece as a whole, what you think the reader will get from it, and how the changes you suggested will make this piece shine, fulfill it's purpose etc.  Basically, bookend gentle but honest crit with lots of affirmation.  It's time consuming, but it usually keeps the friend from going on the defensive or from taking your changes as a personal attack.  If she really is serious about publishing, then she probably does want honest crit and not just praise.      I hope this helps at least a little.  Good luck, I hope it goes well!  
-Quix

[Lizzie]

Thanks Quixie! That's very helpful! All of this is great advice.

It's good to see you back on the forum, you were gone there for a bit. I like your style!

[Quixilated]

Yes, my muses are fickle and I'm wildly timid. Sometimes I have to go into hiding and regather the courage. I like your style too.

[billy]

be kind but be honest. tell her why you think what you think about the works. nothing more; nothing less. explain that thats how you will be before helping her out.

[Lizzie]

Yes, my muses are fickle and I'm wildly timid.  Sometimes I have to go into hiding and regather the courage.  I like your style too.

---

explain that thats how you will be before helping her out.

This is true. Let her know what's coming. Solid advice.

[RiverNotch]

I would suggest bringing her here -- I mean, however obsessively private or delicate her subjects are, since she intends to publish, ie bare everything to the world, anyway....and at least here, she'll have the advantage of a warmer first reception, and way more useful feedback (by strangers, I mean) than, "Sorry, this isn't the kind of stuff we're out to market right now". Plus, if a lot of the material is that sensitive, she could be selective with the posting, too -- I find that when I write a bunch of poems on one outing, just posting one here gets me enough material to edit more objectively the rest, since that one outing usually means one style, one set of guidelines and devices.

As for just your crit, I suppose what's been said. When my friends really prod me, I tend to turn vicious (if deserving of viciousness) -- I mean, vicious without malice, sure, but still vicious -- so, yeah, still working on it. But those suggestions are exactly what I'm working towards, so yeah ----

[Achebe]

I would suggest bringing her here -- I mean, however obsessively private or delicate her subjects are, since she intends to publish, ie bare everything to the world, anyway....and at least here, she'll have the advantage of a warmer first reception, and way more useful feedback (by strangers, I mean) than, "Sorry, this isn't the kind of stuff we're out to market right now". Plus, if a lot of the material is that sensitive, she could be selective with the posting, too -- I find that when I write a bunch of poems on one outing, just posting one here gets me enough material to edit more objectively the rest, since that one outing usually means one style, one set of guidelines and devices.

As for just your crit, I suppose what's been said. When my friends really prod me, I tend to turn vicious (if deserving of viciousness) -- I mean, vicious without malice, sure, but still vicious -- so, yeah, still working on it. But those suggestions are exactly what I'm working towards, so yeah ----

I would caution against getting her here as a number of publishers and poetry magazines will not consider work that has been posted elsewhere, even on a workshop forum.

[Leanne]

That is true for individual submissions to journals etc, but for an entire collection it's often expected that at least a few poems have been published. It makes quite a good publicity point.

I would encourage her to try out at least one or two pieces here if she would like, simply because it's good to find out if poems of a personal nature translate well enough outside the circle of people who know what you're talking about. The members only forum is safe from googling.

Additionally, it's a benefit to any poet to try their hand at critique and to see what else is possible.

[Todd]

Ask her what she wants from your critique. Ask her is there some area in the poems she's concerned about and hoping that critique will shore up. This will give you a sense of how objective she can be about her work. If you feel she wants support and encouragement but not really critique than stay on the surface with your comments--don't lie of course, but don't bother to go deeply into the poems. If she sees herself as her poems than it will only damage your relationship. If she can accept though that even great work gets rejected and wants you to find any obvious disqualifying flaws then help her. You will be successful in this to the degree that she can be mature and objective. That may be harder with highly personal material but it's still necessary.

[Lizzie]

But justmercedes gets published and they post here.

[Leanne]

But justmercedes gets published and they post here.

*Members Only forum*. I can't stress enough that this is safe from googling and will not jeopardise any chances of getting published by some insecure ezine that wants to claim your work as its own amazing discovery -- and an entire manuscript is NOT the same thing as submissions of individual poems.

[shemthepenman]

But justmercedes gets published and they post here.

*Members Only forum*.  I can't stress enough that this is safe from googling and will not jeopardise any chances of getting published by some insecure ezine that wants to claim your work as its own amazing discovery -- and an entire manuscript is NOT the same thing as submissions of individual poems.

seriously?! then i'm fresh out of excuses for why i'm not industrial grade published :/*


*this is sarcasm. . . you know, just to be sure.

[Leanne]

Publishing is so passe. Do it and you'll be lost to the revolution.

[rowens]

I think most of the site is now safe from publisherbots. It looks that way from the outside.

[Achebe]

Publishing is so passe.  Do it and you'll be lost to the revolution.

What's truly revolutionary is 'chimerical poetry'.
The idea is to write your best poem and leave it on the Internet for a day. Then take it down and permanently delete all copies of it.
As a a sacrifice to Baal.

[rowens]

If you did that the poem would simply resurface as a form of neurosis.

[Achebe]

If you did that the poem would simply resurface as a form of neurosis.

You mean the poem must out? I wrote something on that in the misc forum but it escaped people's attention who'd much rather see cliched things  like the Mona Lisa (or in Leanne's case, The Voice).

If the poem resurfaces, you gotta take your dog for a run. Nothing that the boring suburban life couldn't cure.

[rowens]

Demonic sacrifices, the waste product resurfaces in the mind.

[Achebe]

Demonic sacrifices, the waste product resurfaces in the mind.

Baal wasn't a demon. He was a great Phoenician god.
Jehovah = jealous tribal upstart.