From tenements to sun dance lodge

[Keith]

Futures crackle like silver foil
blackened by their underbelly,
furs traded for faeces and friends
at an altar from a grazing skull.

Push the bone through fast,
tether me with twisted ropes
of flesh, reborn beside this death.
I will see inside the smoke
and tear the skewers fresh.

Feathered with the breeze
to mend with medicated traits
of men, that spirit high above
the trees and only ask respect
of creatures on their knees.

[cidermaid]

I am not sure if I have read this right...I recently watched Longmire or some other similar thing with Red Indian rituals and this brought that sort of thing to mind.
It is powerful and slightly disturbing to read - (in a good way in that it grips me) A departure from your normal voice - that i am also likeing. I got a little lost in what exactly I am being asked to contemplate, but I don't mind being lost - A bit of mystery is good I think and that sometimes when a poem is heavily work-shopped it looses some of it's vitality. So I'm not sure I would want to see it work-shopped. I like it as it is.

[Keith]

I am not sure if I have read this right...I recently watched Longmire or some other similar thing with Red Indian rituals and this brought that sort of thing to mind.
It is powerful and slightly disturbing to read - (in a good way in that it grips me)  A departure from your normal voice - that i am also likeing.  I got a little lost in what exactly I am being asked to contemplate, but I don't mind being lost - A bit of mystery is good I think and that sometimes when a poem is heavily work-shopped it looses some of it's vitality.  So I'm not sure I would want to see it work-shopped.  I like it as it is.

Hi AJ sorry I missed your post with all the NaPalM flying around, yes I think I saw this on a film its about a native american ritual that involves getting high and being tied to the sun pole with bones through your skin until they rip, there is more to it but I don't think this one works so well. I would need to look at it again but there are others still sat in serious that I want to address first. Thank you for the bump. Best Keith

[bedeep]

I recognize this as the Sun Dance of the Plains Indians tribes: http://aktalakota.stjo.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8668

It's quite an intense ritual.

[Erthona]

It is an interesting topic, but a lot is left out if describing a Sun Dance. (I'll use white people terms) first the series of sweats, then the series of "vision quest" (umblacha (sic)), then Sun Dance which occurs over three days. Too much "Man Called Horse" mixed in here for my taste. Of course this is going to be a sensitive topic as it is at the core of the Lakota, which has gobbled most of the other tribes (thanks god I'm Seminole,sweats were intense enough for me).  

The enjambment seems forced at S2 L6-7. It creates a caesura that is unneeded and to me unacceptable (the last being purely personal). The lineation seems ad hoc, without reference to the internal structure.

In terms of rhythmic quality this comes across as a bit tone deaf.

This is of course more critique than is justified in this forum, but anytime one writes about religion, I don't see what else what one can expect.

I would like to see this expanded,


dale


PS It's called a "sun dance" because they dance  specifically around a pole(not hang). After three days of no food and water, they go up to the pole and make their prayers, then run as hard as they can backwards hoping they rip out the bone the first time. Personally I think the Lakota are nuts.

[Keith]

I recognize this as the Sun Dance of the Plains Indians tribes: http://aktalakota.stjo.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8668

It's quite an intense ritual.

Thanks for the comment bedeep and yes extremely intense.
Best Keith

---

It is an interesting topic, but a lot is left out if describing a Sun Dance. (I'll use white people terms) first the series of sweats, then the series of "vision quest" (umblacha (sic)), then Sun Dance which occurs over three days. Too much "Man Called Horse" mixed in here for my taste. Of course this is going to be a sensitive topic as it is at the core of the Lakota, which has gobbled most of the other tribes (thanks god I'm Seminole,sweats were intense enough for me).  

The enjambment seems forced at S2 L6-7. It creates a caesura that is unneeded and to me unacceptable (the last being purely personal). The lineation seems ad hoc, without reference to the internal structure.

In terms of rhythmic quality this comes across as a bit tone deaf.

This is of course more critique than is justified in this forum, but anytime one writes about religion, I don't see what else what one can expect.

I would like to see this expanded,


dale


PS It's called a "sun dance" because they dance  specifically around a pole(not hang). After three days of no food and water, they go up to the pole and make their prayers, then run as hard as they can backwards hoping they rip out the bone the first time. Personally I think the Lakota are nuts.

Thank you for the considered feedback dale and the pointers, much appreciated. By way of explanation this poem is about being a smack head and living in a tenement squat, starving then getting high so I was only drawing a comparison. However the whole ritual is an interesting topic but that's not the topic I was trying to cover, I just saw some similarity. Best Keith

[Erthona]

Yeah, I got that from the silver foil, still it seemed as though you were getting your idea of sun dance from the movie of "A Man Called Horse" where he was "hung above the smoke and the skewers were torn", which was complete fictionalization, but great drama. First off, if the "skewers" were through the skin, they would tear before a person could be hoisted, the bone, if it did not break would have to be placed deep into the muscle, then it would take more than just the weight of the body hanging there to tear him free. Several people would have had to jump on him before it would finally tear free. I know this because I was at a sun dance where a big (egotistical) buck had them put the bone deep through the muscle (he wanted to feel pain for the people, he sure got to). When it was time to break free after three days, he could not, no matter how hard he tried. After many, many times, six other guys (and they were not small) would push him and even then it took several times before the bone tore through the muscle and flesh. To hang the human body the bone would have to be driven to a similar depth into the muscle to hold the body up. It is of course very dramatic, it is also probably very offensive to any Lakota who would read the poem, as it takes a sacred ritual, and changes it either for dramatic effect, or simply out of ignorance. Either way I do not think it would go over well. Thankfully I am half Seminole, and we are not nearly so sensitive as the Lakota.  However, I think if you are going to use something, even as a metaphor, use it correctly, but it is a good joke on the Lakota, all 103,255 of them 

dale

[Keith]

Thanks for the lesson Dale. The hang was not literal in fact it was a late change from float which sounded cliche, now I wished  I'd left it, if you read the poem I say tether me as in tether a horse ie tie my to the pole and I will tear the skewers fresh meaning I will do it when I've suffered enough. not meaning they will rip when you hang me as you imply. This is clearly a topic close to you and I was certainly not making light of any ritual. The topic just interested me and a way of life I can only imagine. I will change the hang to avoid any further confusion. Best Keith

[LunaDeLore]

Keith,

Futures crackle like silver foil -----> someone said to me "why not 'as' instead of like" and could this be true here
blackened by their underbelly,
furs traded for faeces and friends ----> unique combination, not one I'm accustomed too.
at an altar from a grazing skull. -----> an alter from a grazing skull or "of " a grazing skull ?

Push the bone through fast,
tether me with twisted ropes
of flesh, reborn beside this death.
I will see inside the smoke -----> I must admit, this is a good strophe but the use of "I" is somewhat daunting. Why not " to see inside the smoke."
and tear the skewers fresh.

Feathered with the breeze
to mend with medicated traits-----> Why medicated traits? Wouldn't something like "antiseptic" work better.  
of men, that spirit high above
the trees and only ask respect
of creatures on their knees.


The title really caught my eye but I can't say that I expected the content to be flesh baring (smiles and winks)....And I do hope you consider some of the suggestions I've made in critique.

[Keith]

Keith,

Futures crackle like silver foil -----> someone said to me "why not 'as' instead of like" and could this be true here
blackened by their underbelly,
furs traded for faeces and friends ----> unique combination, not one I'm accustomed too.
at an altar from a grazing skull. -----> an alter from a grazing skull or "of " a grazing skull ?

Push the bone through fast,
tether me with twisted ropes
of flesh, reborn beside this death.
I will see inside the smoke -----> I must admit, this is a good strophe but the use of "I" is somewhat daunting. Why not " to see inside the smoke."
and tear the skewers fresh.

Feathered with the breeze
to mend with medicated traits-----> Why medicated traits? Wouldn't something like "antiseptic" work better.  
of men, that spirit high above
the trees and only ask respect
of creatures on their knees.


The title really caught my eye but I can't say that I expected the content to be flesh baring (smiles and winks)....And I do hope you consider some of the suggestions I've made in critique.

Many thanks LDL much appreciated I will have a look at what fits for the edit much appreciated, I was thinking more methadone than antiseptic and almost having to beg for it. Thanks again for the help. Keith