[split] Snow where else to be (in February)

[Apache]

Good points! I thought I was sticking close to the "original haiku", but I guess I am wrong. I always understood it as 5-7-5 (or less, since our syllables are longer than their ..I don't know what the word is), and that it had to be about season or nature, combining two images. A lot of people today just do the 5-7-5 format and call it a haiku. I thought that was wrong, but I hadn't realised how different our "haiku" is from the Japanese haiku, given the visual aspect.  Maybe what we do really is just minimal poetry, which is a fun exercise to do.

Well, the thing is with haiku in the original Japanese is that 5-7-5 aren't actually counted in syllables, they are counted in phonetic units called on. There isn't always a one-to-one mapping between on and a Western conception of a syllable. For example, the name "Tokyo" is two-syllables (maybe three if you pronounce it strangely) the way we Westerners consider syllables, but it is actually composed of four on. So, the names "Nagasaki" and "Tokyo", despite differing in syllable length, actually have the same number of on! The closest concept Western linguistics has to an on is called a mora, which is probably more "accurate" to use as the counting unit in a haiku rather than a syllable.

So, it makes the question of what counting units you use in non-Japanese-language haikus an interesting question. The simplest approach is to do what most people do and simply use Western syllables as the counting unit, because it would be unreasonable to expect people to translate everything into and then back from Japanese to rigorously follow the standards of the form. A better approach is probably to use mora, but then that makes your haikus a little more inaccessible to people that don't understand mora. On are a much more important part of Japanese language structure and understanding than mora are to Westerners that aren't practiced linguists.

Of course, this is all just academic, and since 99% of people just use syllables there's no issue with doing that and calling it a haiku. I guess properly speaking Westerners should have a different name for the 5-7-5 format, since we don't follow many of the other conventions of traditional haiku writing (for example, the Japanese always write them in a single vertical line ... we use the three separate lines simply to emphasize the 5-7-5 format, but in Japanese haiku it is only implicit). The word haiku descends from an abbreviation of the phrase "haikai no ku", which translates as something along the lines of "comic verse" or "unorthodox verse", but typically with connotations of lightness or jocosity. In fact, "haikai" is a more generic term for a broader category of Japanese poetry of which haikus and senryus are really considered a special type. All this to say, I think if you actually wanted to call the 5-7-5 syllable structure poem something other than haiku to differentiate it from "true"/traditional Japanese haikus, you would probably want to come up with a phrase using the English equivalent of "haikai no ku".

[Erthona]

These are things I have been "harping on" forever. Another most people do not take into consideration is the condensed nature of the Japanese language, as they were isolated for so many years. So they are able to say in much fewer words what would take many in English. MY main problem has always been the name. Drop the association with the Japanese poetry and I would have no problem with it, outside of the fact that writing in 5-7-5 serves no real purpose in English. It is purely an ad hoc constraint that does not enhance, and in fact in most cases harms the poem. I think I might post my diatribe on Cinquain now that you have me thinking of it.   Of course as this has nothing to do with this poem, I should probably go mod myself!

dale

[Akira]

This is a debate that's been going on for more than half a century, and the problem usually arises because there are two Haikus: Traditional Haiku, and Modern Haiku, which most ELH (English-Language Haiku) falls into. Modern does not have as strict rules, loosens the requirements, but usually attempts to maintain the spirit the original, though in what ways can vary. 

Some people do not like this, saying Modern isn't really Haiku, but that is a semantic argument: many people do not like all the different ways language evolves, but that does not make those evolutions not exist, and Modern Haiku as a genre (sometimes under varying titles/names, such as ELH) exists.

For me, the bigger issue here is the lack of a juxtaposition of two things, preferably two distinct images. Although, there seems to be a slightly cynical criticism lurking in it that suggests it might really be a Senryu.

[Erthona]

I had a friend I worked with at the university. His parents had been diplomats to Japan, and so he had spent most of his early years there, although he was not given a mainstream Japanese education. He not surprisingly married a Japanese woman. Her brother happened to be one of the preeminent writers of haiku at the time (don't ask, it was more than thirty years ago). Anyway, my friend as his brother-in-law what Japanese haiku writers thought about American haiku. The brother-in-law said they thought it was a joke. He said aside from the fact that it does not resemble haiku, it is totally inelegant by comparison. He said that was no fault of English speaking people of lack of intellect, as he had read many sublime poems in English. He said one simply cannot do with the English language what one can do with the Japanese language.

I like that there is a movement away from the Japanese association into developing a short form that is more appropriate for the English language. Have you ever heard of a "dique"? It had a Wiki page for a brief while I believe. I would give you the parameters but the site I originated it on is no longer in existence. That was back when big Blue was still up and running. Ah! I found a copy of one by Graeme King who use to operate a poetry site I was on. I'm fairly sure he knew it was a joke, but he wrote several anyway. Basically it is a silly for. It is a four line stanza with a syllable count of 5-9-7-9  with all end rhymes the same. As many stanzas can be stacked together as one wants. There were other conditions similar to ELH, but I no longer remember what they were. The point being, the form did nothing the benefit the poem, in fact it made it worse. Which is why I'm glad Billy had the foreskin forethought to put "short poem format" as a header to this section.

Note bene: Marcella, this thread needs to be moved to discussion as it is disrespectful to the original post and the writer who posted it, but since I am a part of the problem I appeal to you to do it.  

Sting


I wear a disguise
reinforcing my well-though out lies,
watching for doubt in their eyes
seeing my lucky star on the rise.

I step on the plank
pirating all from the local bank,
wondering who I should thank
for my newly-elevated rank.

Withdrawing the dough
receiving nods from those in the know
shuffling feet to and fro
I try my best to saunter out slow.

The party began
out of the coals and into the pan!
Gunning my getaway van
it's nice to put one over the man.

 

copyright  Graeme King 2008

[Akira]

I am curious if you consider those 14 line poems that Shakespeare wrote to be Sonnets? They certainly vary from the rules that govern the Italian originals, and precisely because English as a language is different from Italian — Italian allows, among other things, I am told, for tight/limited/simple rhyme schemes to not sound foolish, like your dique example.

I suppose you are right, it would be stupid for us to call them so, and Shakespeare was a fool for writing them — there is no way he or any other English writer could produce anything that could come close to the Italians [which I am sure some Italian writers certainly believe...], although he and his writing kin would likely be grateful for the reassurance that they are not genetically idiots or otherwise inherently incapable of writing good, albeit of course, other forms of, poetry.

Beyond that, well, I mean, your friend’s wife’s brother’s recollection of the opinion of unnamed Japanese poets. That's pretty much a persuasive slam-dunk, no?

;-)

[ellajam]

I am curious if you consider those 14 line poems that Shakespeare wrote to be Sonnets? They certainly vary from the rules that govern the Italian originals, and precisely because English as a language is different from Italian — Italian allows, among other things, I am told, for tight/limited/simple rhyme schemes to not sound foolish, like your dique example.

I suppose you are right, it would be stupid for us to call them so, and Shakespeare was a fool for writing them — there is no way he or any other English writer could produce anything that could come close to the Italians [which I am sure some Italian writers certainly believe...], although he and his writing kin would likely be grateful for the reassurance that they are not genetically idiots or otherwise inherently incapable of writing good, albeit of course, other forms of, poetry.

Beyond that, well, I mean, your friend’s wife’s brother’s recollection of the opinion of unnamed Japanese poets. That's pretty much a persuasive slam-dunk, no?

;-)

[Leanne]

It's interesting you mention sonnets in comparison -- I have always thought that sonnets and haiku basically function in the same way. Both are contemplative; both have a definite volta; both are precise, in a form that has evolved over centuries so that, when followed, the words draw upon the tradition and become more than the scribblings of free verse or extemporised rhymes. I have also found that when one writes in English, every writer who uses another language will say "you cannot do the same in English as you can in Mylanguagese." Perhaps this is true, but then so is the reverse in that case, and yet you'll still find those Mylanguagese writers using forms popularised by the English and using them with alacrity. Are English speakers somehow less capable?

I cannot write a haiku in Japanese -- but I'll warrant that neither can many Japanese people. I write sonnets in English, but the majority of English speakers are bamboozled by the concept. For heaven's sake, right here on this site we see evidence that people can't even write a basic limerick!

The Japanese tradition of haiku is not diminished by its English language modifications and contemporary hybrids any more than traditional Mexican food is made less awesome by Taco Bell. Poetry is not ruled by some kind of appellation d'origine contrôlée. It is a dynamic, living and constantly shifting art that is not in any way assisted by the "thou shalt not" brigade.