That Woman with the Long Brown Hair

[jams01752]

Hi,
So, this is a first edit of a not so good original! Couple of points before reading, there is no attempt to rhyme during this poem and the fourth stanza is intended to humanise hence the universal obvious statements. Hope this is better.

Revision

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day
At night she has to face an unwanted and risky task,
to meet and attend to the eager and lustful eyes of men

"It's a sin" I hear the religious fanatics shout,
It's as sinful as starting a fire to stay warm
"One year in prison" the law thunders disgusted,
the judge smashes his hammer and with it,
any chance of recovery she may have had

Maybe at home she's a mother of three,
could it be she's just trying to meet ends meet?
Or maybe she's got a drug habit and debts,
living in fear, with no cure for her illness
Either way persecution of the vulnerable,
only leads to societal and individual hardship

Success stunted by social prejudice and mass ignorance,
leaving only a social algorithm designed to mistreat
The disregard for her person and the truth beneath,
can only leave a hole where progress could've been

But when she gets hungry she starves,
and when she gets thirsty she withers
If she's cut her warm blood leaks out,
and her tears produce clear emotion

For those who have fallen victim to a system,
who treat the helpless as if they had a choice
Those who suffer social closure and exclusion,
life is but a vicious cycle with no release


Original

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
She painted her body in ink and slept during the day,
Waking at night black panther stalking the street lights

I heard she dabbled in the dark arts, sinless sinner,
As sinful as Adam and as lost and forgotten as Eve

misunderstood at night under siege she makes her way,

I heard when she gets hungry she starves,
And when she gets thirsty she shrivels
When she's cut she bleeds with humanity,
And when she cries her tears produce clear honesty

I heard that when we leave the house we wear masks,
And when we get home they begin to crack

[Mark A Becker]

OK jams-  let's have a look...

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day, you start off with good images
Waking at night black panther stalking the street lights  then offer this confusing sentence
I heard she dabbled in the dark arts, sinless sinner,
as sinful as Adam and as lost and forgotten as Eve accuracy please- Eve is hardly forgotten, and the whole biblical reference just comes outta nowhere... and then goes nowhere

Misunderstood at night under siege she makes her way why does this line deserve to stand alone? The sentence construction is lacking, as well, rendering a nonsensical line  

When she gets hungry she starves, OK, but everybody does.  How about "steals"?
and when she gets thirsty she shrivels getting to be a bit of a laundry list, here
When she's cut she bleeds with humanity,Too abstract to have meaning
and her tears produce clear honesty seems like honesty is only being used to rhyme with humanity

When we leave the house we wear masks,  No we don't.  I'm not convinced.
and when we get home they begin to crack Crack into what?  The intended drama fall flat

Well jams, I'm just not sure what you're going for.  You seem to have an idea, but it's just not being conveyed to me.  You started off with some interesting images like "wore a mask" and "painted in ink" but let it go after that.  

In the middle of the story, I'm lost, because the story isn't there. She's walking at night getting hungry and thirsty, and sinning in ways I never learn anything about, other than Adam is somehow invoked. She's cut and then cries, but I have no idea what happened.  ??  

In the end we learn that "we" wear masks that crack when "we" get back home.  I don't know that this "we" includes me, but what really matters is the "she" -- that woman with the long brown hair.  I want to know about her mask is all about.  

Continue with the images you started out with, and paint this picture.  Otherwise, it stops for me before she ever leaves the house.

There's work to be done, but you knew that,
... Mark

[jams01752]

OK jams-  let's have a look...
That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day, you start off with good images
Waking at night black panther stalking the street lights  then offer this confusing sentence
I heard she dabbled in the dark arts, sinless sinner,
as sinful as Adam and as lost and forgotten as Eve accuracy please- Eve is hardly forgotten, and the whole biblical reference just comes outta nowhere...  and then goes nowhere
Misunderstood at night under siege she makes her way why does this line deserve to stand alone? The sentence construction is lacking, as well, rendering a nonsensical line  
When she gets hungry she starves, OK, but everybody does.  How about "steals"?
and when she gets thirsty she shrivels getting to be a bit of a laundry list, here
When she's cut she bleeds with humanity,Too abstract to have meaning
and her tears produce clear honesty seems like honesty is only being used to rhyme with humanity
When we leave the house we wear masks,  No we don't.  I'm not convinced.
and when we get home they begin to crack Crack into what?  The intended drama fall flat
Well jams, I'm just not sure what you're going for.  You seem to have an idea, but it's just not being conveyed to me.  You started off with some interesting images like "wore a mask" and "painted in ink" but let it go after that.  
In the middle of the story, I'm lost, because the story isn't there. She's walking at night getting hungry and thirsty, and sinning in ways I never learn anything about, other than Adam is somehow invoked. She's cut and then cries, but I have no idea what happened.  ??  
In the end we learn that "we" wear masks that crack when "we" get back home.  I don't know that this "we" includes me, but what really matters is the "she" -- that woman with the long brown hair.  I want to know about her mask is all about.  
Continue with the images you started out with, and paint this picture.  Otherwise, it stops for me before she ever leaves the house.
There's work to be done, but you knew that,
... Mark

Thanks very much for the comment and criticism! I'm brand new to poetry and this was one of my first attempts with getting feedback. There's definitely work to be done of creating more clear images and meaning. I can see exactly what you mean with certain things not being, eh, very explanatory. However, I do think you missed the point with a couple of things. I'll take it away and work on it and see what I can come up with.
James

[Grace]

Hi,
So, this is a first edit of a not so good original! Couple of points before reading, there is no attempt to rhyme during this poem and the fourth stanza is intended to humanise hence the universal obvious statements. Hope this is better.

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day
At night she has to face an unwanted and risky task,
to meet and attend to the eager and lustful eyes of men

"It's a sin" I hear the religious fanatics shout,
It's as sinful as starting a fire to stay warm
"One year in prison" the law thunders disgusted,
the judge smashes his hammer and with it,
any chance of recovery she may have had

Maybe at home she's a mother of three,
could it be she's just trying to meet ends meet?
Or maybe she's got a drug habit and debts,
living in fear, with no cure for her illness
Either way persecution of the vulnerable,
only leads to societal and individual hardship

Success stunted by social prejudice and mass ignorance,
leaving only a social algorithm designed to mistreat
The disregard for her person and the truth beneath,
can only leave a hole where progress could've been

But when she gets hungry she starves,
and when she gets thirsty she withers
If she's cut her warm blood leaks out,
and her tears produce clear emotion

For those who have fallen victim to a system,
who treat the helpless as if they had a choice
Those who suffer social closure and exclusion,
life is but a vicious cycle with no release

Hi Jams, I think your first edit may have gone unnoticed, so I'm posting it up for you. I see that you've said you're new to poetry and welcome critique. You've gone away and worked on the poem. It would help readers if you could copy in the original under the revision. I'm going to come back to this. Thanks for posting. Grace.

[Mark A Becker]

Hello again jams, and welcome! I understand that being new to poetry and posting your work can be scary. But hey, poetry needs to be shared.

I already commented on the original and add a few suggestions:

Try to "be" your 'woman with the long brown hair'. Writing from her point of view would be more powerful. Writing from the 3rd person lends itself to climbing on a soapbox.

Write what you know. If you cannot relate to "the woman.." it will show. Research- offer real examples (the newspapers are full of them). You've offered a lot of opinions, but few hard facts. Hard facts are convincing, unfounded opinions are not. I want to be convinced.

This forum offers a chance for interaction, whereas the reality is that a poem must say what it going to say in one shot. No opportunities to explain later. If I missed something, then what did I miss? Please, explain within the context of the poem. If there are double meanings, I'll probably get them if they're expressed clearly. You say I missed the point, and I say, "it ain't my fault."

That said, please be careful, because explaining can turn into "telling". I want you to show me. Show with concrete images (especially about the woman, and/or her immediate surroundings). Give her a drug habit. Three kids. Show me her illness.

Read this aloud, to yourself, or someone else. Does it sound preachy? (I thought so.) Listen to the response from your test listener, and hopefully you'll get an honest reaction. ("WOW, pretty cool" is not very useful.)

Try completely re-doing S.2, S.3, and S.4 as those stanzas are very preachy. In reality I have yet to hear a religious fanatic shout, "it's a sin". I'm not even sure what a religious fanatic really is. Once again, I'm not convinced.

Please do not take offense, as none is intended. Please don't go "on the defense", as your effort is worth investigating further, and fully. A poem of a few stanzas can only contain so many words: make them all count.

Perhaps I'll revisit and offer a line-by-line take on this one, but right now I need to get ready for the USA v JAPAN, women's world cup final... nothing like kick ball played so well...

more later...
... Mark

[Mark A Becker]

Hey jams. Now I'll try some old-fashioned scanning (others may get it differently, but I will be pretty close. I want to do this so that you'll see how the stresses/accents fall. Accents then affect the meter.
"-" = unaccented and "/" = accented

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask, -/---/////-/
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day -/--/--/-//--/
At night she has to face an unwanted and risky task, -/---/--/--/-/
to meet and attend to the eager and lustful eyes of men -/--/--/--/-/-/

"It's a sin" I hear the religious fanatics shout, --/-/--/--/-/
It's as sinful as starting a fire to stay warm --/--/--/-//
"One year in prison" the law thunders disgusted, -/-/--//--/-
the judge smashes his hammer and with it, -//--/--/-
any chance of recovery she may have had /-/--/--/---

Maybe at home she's a mother of three, /--//-/--/
could it be she's just trying to meet ends meet? --/--/--///
Or maybe she's got a drug habit and debts, -/-/--//--/
living in fear, with no cure for her illness /--/--/--/-
Either way persecution of the vulnerable, /-/-//---/---
only leads to societal and individual hardship /-/--/-----/--//

Success stunted by social prejudice and mass ignorance, -//--/--/--/--/
leaving only a social algorithm designed to mistreat /-/--/---/--/--/
The disregard for her person and the truth beneath, -/-/--/---/-/
can only leave a hole where progress could've been -/-/-/-/-/--

But when she gets hungry she starves, /---/--/
and when she gets thirsty she withers ----/--/-
If she's cut her warm blood leaks out, --/-////
and her tears produce clear emotion --/-//-/-

For those who have fallen victim to a system ----/-/---/-
who treat the helpless as if they had a choice -/-/------/
Those who suffer social closure and exclusion,--/-/-/---/-
life is but a vicious cycle with no release /-/-/-/----/

Hmmm? What do you see? What I see is meter that is all over the place. Probably more "iambs" than I marked, giving the piece a decidedly prose-like structure.

The line breaks and uneven stanza lengths need to be addressed: you're either writing in quatrains or not.

More later...
... Mark

[jams01752]

Hello again jams, and welcome!  I understand that being new to poetry and posting your work can be scary.  But hey, poetry needs to be shared.

I already commented on the original and add a few suggestions:

Try to "be" your 'woman with the long brown hair'.  Writing from her point of view would be more powerful.  Writing from the 3rd person lends itself to climbing on a soapbox.

Write what you know.  If you cannot relate to "the woman.." it will show.  Research- offer real examples (the newspapers are full of them).   You've offered a lot of opinions, but few hard facts.  Hard facts are convincing, unfounded opinions are not.  I want to be convinced.

This forum offers a chance for interaction, whereas the reality is that a poem must say what it going to say in one shot.  No opportunities to explain later.  If I missed something, then what did I miss?   Please, explain within the context of the poem.  If there are double meanings, I'll probably get them if they're expressed clearly.  You say I missed the point, and I say, "it ain't my fault."

That said, please be careful, because explaining can turn into "telling".  I want you to show me.  Show with concrete images (especially about the woman, and/or her immediate surroundings).  Give her a drug habit. Three kids.  Show me her illness.    

Read this aloud, to yourself, or someone else.  Does it sound preachy?  (I thought so.)  Listen to the response from your test listener, and hopefully you'll get an honest reaction.  ("WOW, pretty cool" is not very useful.)

Try completely re-doing S.2, S.3, and S.4 as those stanzas are very preachy.  In reality I have yet to hear a religious fanatic shout, "it's a sin".  I'm not even sure what a religious fanatic really is. Once again, I'm not convinced.

Please do not take offense, as none is intended.  Please don't go "on the defense", as your effort is worth investigating further, and fully. A poem of a few stanzas can only contain so many words: make them all count.

Perhaps I'll revisit and offer a line-by-line take on this one, but right now I need to get ready for the USA v JAPAN, women's world cup final... nothing like kick ball played so well...  

more later...
... Mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks again for the comment and I agree poetry needs to be shared and honest criticism needs to be left (I wouldn't like it be giving false criticism).

I can see what you mean on a topic such as the one this poem is involved with it does call for hard facts i'll try and include some. There was a couple of things I thought you missed such as the purpose of the 2nd last stanza on the original (which was to humanise her) and the reason for the singular line (important idea in the poem) but once I had went away and re-read the poem and then thought about it I agree with what you're saying if you've missed the point then it's because i've not been effective enough in showing it to you.

I'll try changing up these stanzas and try and change that tone, it wasn't intentional. Also I will add some concrete images. Maybe something more appropriate would be 'The bible shouts "it's a sin"' as the bible does not accept prostitution, sex before marriage or female sexual promiscuity in any way, that way it removes from the readers own experiences. A religious fanatic is someone who is very active in demonstrating their faith and during this may end up forcing their faith/beliefs upon another.

I have been trying to get the balance right between being explicit and implicit in my writing. Things which seemed to clear to me as the writer who has an idea in their head isn't always translated properly to the reader, if my reply had seemed to defensive that was why.

That'd be great. The comments are much appreciated. Enjoy the game, I was watching the England vs Germany game for third place. Very good World Cup this year.
James

---

Hey jams.  Now I'll try some old-fashioned scanning (others may get it differently, but I will be pretty close. I want to do this so that you'll see how the stresses/accents fall.  Accents then affect the meter.
"-" = unaccented and "/" = accented  

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask, -/---/////-/
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day  -/--/--/-//--/
At night she has to face an unwanted and risky task,  -/---/--/--/-/
to meet and attend to the eager and lustful eyes of men  -/--/--/--/-/-/

"It's a sin" I hear the religious fanatics shout,  --/-/--/--/-/
It's as sinful as starting a fire to stay warm --/--/--/-//
"One year in prison" the law thunders disgusted,  -/-/--//--/-
the judge smashes his hammer and with it, -//--/--/-
any chance of recovery she may have had /-/--/--/---

Maybe at home she's a mother of three, /--//-/--/
could it be she's just trying to meet ends meet? --/--/--///
Or maybe she's got a drug habit and debts, -/-/--//--/
living in fear, with no cure for her illness /--/--/--/-
Either way persecution of the vulnerable, /-/-//---/---
only leads to societal and individual hardship /-/--/-----/--//

Success stunted by social prejudice and mass ignorance, -//--/--/--/--/
leaving only a social algorithm designed to mistreat /-/--/---/--/--/
The disregard for her person and the truth beneath, -/-/--/---/-/
can only leave a hole where progress could've been -/-/-/-/-/--

But when she gets hungry she starves, /---/--/
and when she gets thirsty she withers ----/--/-
If she's cut her warm blood leaks out, --/-////
and her tears produce clear emotion --/-//-/-

For those who have fallen victim to a system ----/-/---/-
who treat the helpless as if they had a choice -/-/------/
Those who suffer social closure and exclusion,--/-/-/---/-
life is but a vicious cycle with no release /-/-/-/----/

Hmmm?   What do you see?  What I see is meter that is all over the place.  Probably more "iambs" than I marked, giving the piece a decidedly prose-like structure.

The line breaks and uneven stanza lengths need to be addressed:  you're either writing in quatrains or not.

More later...
... Mark

Hi again,

This is something I need to work on a lot and is something that I have not even acknowledged when writing this poem! You're right it is all over the place and needs to be amended. Thanks for taking the time to do that it gives me something to work from.

James

---

Hi,
So, this is a first edit of a not so good original! Couple of points before reading, there is no attempt to rhyme during this poem and the fourth stanza is intended to humanise hence the universal obvious statements. Hope this is better.

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
she painted her body in ink and slept during the day
At night she has to face an unwanted and risky task,
to meet and attend to the eager and lustful eyes of men

"It's a sin" I hear the religious fanatics shout,
It's as sinful as starting a fire to stay warm
"One year in prison" the law thunders disgusted,
the judge smashes his hammer and with it,
any chance of recovery she may have had

Maybe at home she's a mother of three,
could it be she's just trying to meet ends meet?
Or maybe she's got a drug habit and debts,
living in fear, with no cure for her illness
Either way persecution of the vulnerable,
only leads to societal and individual hardship

Success stunted by social prejudice and mass ignorance,
leaving only a social algorithm designed to mistreat
The disregard for her person and the truth beneath,
can only leave a hole where progress could've been

But when she gets hungry she starves,
and when she gets thirsty she withers
If she's cut her warm blood leaks out,
and her tears produce clear emotion

For those who have fallen victim to a system,
who treat the helpless as if they had a choice
Those who suffer social closure and exclusion,
life is but a vicious cycle with no release

Hi Jams, I think your first edit may have gone unnoticed, so I'm posting it up for you. I see that you've said you're new to poetry and welcome critique. You've gone away and worked on the poem. It would help readers if you could copy in the original under the revision.  I'm going  to come back to this.  Thanks for posting. Grace.

Hi Grace,

Thanks! I am and I have. Oh, i'll get posted below just now. Thanks for the comment and letting me know that.
James

[Grace]

Hi, back again!  To be honest it was easier to read the original than the first edit, because  it had an imagery thing going on..I was picturing this blank panther padding along with one thing on its mind: street-lights!

In the first edit I felt a bit bogged down with lots of words telling me how I should perceive the woman with long brown hair.   I didn't know enough about Long Brown Hair...for all I know she might have got eaten by the black panther when she was standing by a street-light.. I need to know the girl behind the mask (S.1, line 1) and I don't want maybes  like Stanza 3 , lines  1-4 "MAYBE she's a mother of three..debts..illness..drug habit etc".  She either has or she hasn't . Cut out lines  5-6.  That's telling me what opinion I should have about maybes.  

Decide who's glasses you're borrowing to look at long brown haired woman (I think she needs some high-lights!). If it's a preachy view, (stanza 2 - "it's a sin"),  then maybe she could meet a priest on a street corner, or she meets dark figure  behind the curtain at confession? What's he thinking about her? Or  something else..or whatever..who knows? You do, because it's your poem.

If the glasses (shades/contacts!) were her own then this is an example of a first person poem from an African author who seems to have a similar intention to yours i.e to show humanity.  


Hated and Loved (A sex worker's dirge) by  Phillip Christos Chidavaenzi


In the harsh glare of the day’s light,
like a leper you shun me,
like a curse,
openly you revile me,
sneering and mocking.

Yet when sunlight fades,
your secret desires are unleashed,
and you seek me like cool water
in a summer afternoon.

Any who, just some thoughts..All the best with your poem.  Thanks for the read! Grace.

[jams01752]

Hi, back again!  To be honest it was easier to read the original than the first edit, because  it had an imagery thing going on..I was picturing this blank panther padding along with one thing on its mind: street-lights!

In the first edit I felt a bit bogged down with lots of words telling me how I should perceive the woman with long brown hair.   I didn't know enough about Long Brown Hair...for all I know she might have got eaten by the black panther when she was standing by a street-light.. I need to know the girl behind the mask (S.1, line 1) and I don't want maybes  like Stanza 3 , lines  1-4 "MAYBE she's a mother of three..debts..illness..drug habit etc".  She either has or she hasn't . Cut out lines  5-6.  That's telling me what opinion I should have about maybes.  

Decide who's glasses you're borrowing to look at long brown haired woman (I think she needs some high-lights!). If it's a preachy view, (stanza 2 - "it's a sin"),  then maybe she could meet a priest on a street corner, or she meets dark figure  behind the curtain at confession? What's he thinking about her? Or  something else..or whatever..who knows? You do, because it's your poem.

If the glasses (shades/contacts!) were her own then this is an example of a first person poem from an African author who seems to have a similar intention to yours i.e to show humanity.  


Hated and Loved (A sex worker's dirge) by  Phillip Christos Chidavaenzi


In the harsh glare of the day’s light,
like a leper you shun me,
like a curse,
openly you revile me,
sneering and mocking.

Yet when sunlight fades,
your secret desires are unleashed,
and you seek me like cool water
in a summer afternoon.

Any who, just some thoughts..All the best with your poem.  Thanks for the read! Grace.

Hi again,

Thanks for the comments. I can see what you mean with the maybe's, my plan was to try to make it non-specific so as at the end I could apply the treatment of the brown haired woman in a more general sense and that it doesn't matter what the circumstances were. Although I have just realised that I removed the last part of the original which was supposed to deal with that. I like the suggestions for stronger images in stanza 2. Also great poem posted along with your comment. Much appreciated.
James

[i.might.be.a.bit.sad]

Hi,
So, this is a first edit of a not so good original! Couple of points before reading, there is no attempt to rhyme during this poem and the fourth stanza is intended to humanise hence the universal obvious statements. Hope this is better.

Revision

That (the) woman with the long brown hair (either adda comma before she or take out she) she wore a mask,
she (no she) painted her body in ink and slept during the day
At night she has (had--change of tense) to face an unwanted and risky task,
to meet and attend to the eager and lustful eyes of men <--somehow the wording or syntax of this stanza just doesn't work. I put in some tentative suggestions.

"It's a sin (!)" I hear the religious fanatics shout,
It's (about?) as sinful as starting a fire to stay warm
"One year in prison" the law thunders (,) disgusted,
the judge smashes his hammer and with it,
any chance of recovery she may have had <--this line could be more poetic.

Maybe at home she's a mother of three,
could it be she's just trying to meet (make) ends meet?
Or maybe she's got a drug habit and debts,
living in fear, with no cure for her illness
Either way persecution of the vulnerable,
only leads to societal and individual hardship <--and suddenly i'm reading an article in some scholarly journal about the societal impacts of the judicial system on minorities and underprivileged peoples in the cities of america. Make it more relateable. Peotry makes the complicated simple, not the simple complicated.

Success stunted by social prejudice and mass ignorance,
leaving only a social algorithm designed to mistreat
The disregard for her person and the truth beneath,
can only leave a hole where progress could've been <--same as above stanza

But when she gets hungry she starves,
and when she gets thirsty she withers
If she's cut her warm blood leaks out,
and her tears produce clear emotion <-- i like this stanza the most. But there is so much abstract imagery here and so little everywhere else, it takes me by surprise. Try to tie the rest of them to this one.

For those who have fallen victim to a system,
who treat the helpless as if they had a choice
Those who suffer social closure and exclusion,
life is but a vicious cycle with no release


Original

That woman with the long brown hair she wore a mask,
She painted her body in ink and slept during the day,
Waking at night black panther stalking the street lights

I heard she dabbled in the dark arts, sinless sinner,
As sinful as Adam and as lost and forgotten as Eve

misunderstood at night under siege she makes her way,

I heard when she gets hungry she starves,
And when she gets thirsty she shrivels
When she's cut she bleeds with humanity,
And when she cries her tears produce clear honesty

I heard that when we leave the house we wear masks,
And when we get home they begin to crack

I almost like the first one better. I might combine the two, and maybe try to make the societal point WAY more subtly, if you feel you need to keep it at all. Try taking out the line breaks and reading it like prose. If it sounds like a book, you are doing something wrong and need to be more poetic. Overall, i really like this poem and see great potential. Sorry if i was harsh