Lord Randall / A hard Rain's a gonna fall

[Psyve]

I just noticed in Erthona's  response  to a poem  (Tis a Grand Day to Die) on one of the boards  a reference to an old poem " Lord Randall" .

Erthona says  in connection with the submitted poem " ...it would be accentual verse with varying line length. It is similar to such ballads as "Lord Randall" (see below) circa mid 1600's, where the last line is repeated. This was fine in that oral tradition, however as poetry has moved more towards a literary form and away from the oral storytelling form, the repetition becomes more obvious, less effective and seen more as an affectation."

Lord Randall

"Oh where ha'e ye been, Lord Randall my son?
O where ha'e ye been, my handsome young man?"
"I ha'e been to the wild wood: mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' hunting, and fain wald lie down."

"Where gat ye your dinner, Lord Randall my son?
Where gat ye your dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I dined wi' my true love; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' hunting, and fain wald lie down."

"What gat ye to your dinner, Lord Randall my son?
What gat ye to your dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I gat eels boiled in broo: mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' hunting, and fain wald lie down."

"What became of your bloodhounds, Lord Randall my son?
What became of your bloodhounds, my handsome young man?"
"O they swelled and they died: mother, make my bed soon,
for I'm weary wi' hunting, and fain wald lie down."

"O I fear ye are poisoned, Lord Randall my son!
O I fear ye are poisoned, my handsome young man!"
"O yes, I am poisoned: mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wald lie down

I was struck by the remarkable resemblance  this bears, particularly in the opening lines, to Bob Dylan's " A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall" (well actually the other way around)


A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall

Oh, where have you been my blue-eyed son,
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I`ve stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I`ve walked and I`ve crawled on six crooked highways,
I`ve stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,


I`ve been out in the front of a dozen dead oceans,
I`ve been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard.
And it`s a hard, it`s a hard, it`s a hard, it`s a hard, It`s a hard rain`s a gonna fall.

etc
etc

Dylan  too ends each verse with the same last line, so I assume that too is accentual verse, but does anyone else notice the similarity in the  opening lines of the lyric?

Psyve

[bena]

I;m thinking dylan probably took some inspiration from this poem.  It wouldn't be the first time a musician did it.  I think I steal crap without even knowing it...in fact I sometimes google stuff I've written just to make sure it isn't someone else's.  Maybe that's the paranoid person in me, but I try to give credit where its due.  

thing is, it's very hard not to be influenced by all the reading (and listening) you've accumulated in a life time.  

2cent drive by

mel.

[Magpie]

Indeed there is a similarity and it is known that Dylan used the poem "Lord Randall" as the basis for "A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall". In fact there are many instances where Dylan has 'borrowed' from old poems or folk songs, the most obvious (yet somehow not so obvious) example would be Dylan's "Girl From The North Country" which borrowed lyrics and structure from the old English folk tune "Scarborough Fair".

"Girl From The North Country" - Bob Dylan
If you're traveling in the north country fair
Where the winds hit heavy on the borderline
Remember me to one who lives there
For she was once a true love of mine.

"Scarborough Fair" - Traditional
Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary & thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
She once was a true love of mine

Sometimes these revelations shock people and they subsequently accuse Dylan of being a thief, a plagiarist and many other not so friendly descriptions. In fact if you were to google "Dylan plagiarism" I presume you would find a cauldron full of scathing attacks on him (I just checked and there is).  However what a lot of people fail to understand is that at heart Dylan is and always was a folk musician and very much part of what can be called the 'Folk Tradition'. Folk music was also part of the oral tradition that you mentioned so lyrics and melodies were handed on and passed down through the generations. Over time there became a certain pool of standard lyrics that could be used by anyone, this is mostly prominent in blues music where the same phrases will be used many times in many different. I think that the overall feeling was that music was a shared experience and therefore melodies and lyrics weren't any one persons property. Another possible reason is also the need to improvise, especially in the blues, so you could use certain well known lyrics as the backbone to a song and intersperse it with your own contributions throughout.

In America there seems to be a lot of Celtic influence in a lot of their early folk songs, take for example the song "Lass Of Loch Royale" which has more than just a Celtic influenced title, here are two verses from that song,

"Lass Of Loch Royale"
I'm going away to a far distant land
I'm going away for a while
But I'll return to you my love
I'll go ten thousand miles

The sun will dry up the ocean
Heavens will cease to be
The world will lose it's motion
If I prove false to thee

And compare them to a couple of verses from the Robert Burns poem/song "A Red Red Rose" written in 1794,

"A Red Red Rose" - Robert Burns
And fare thee well, my only Luve
And fare thee well, a while!
And I will come again, my Luve,
Tho’ it were ten thousand mile.

Till a’ the seas gang dry, my dear,
And the rocks melt wi’ the sun:
I will luve thee still, my dear,
While the sands o’ life shall run.

So Dylan and many others have committed to this folk tradition firstly because it is tradition and secondly it is a way of showing respect to and knowledge of older folk songs. However in this modern age with copyright laws and accustaions of plagiarism it is easy to understand why people would react in a particular way especially when they have no knowledge of the folk tradition. Dylan also hasn't helped matters for himself by not trying to explain this to people when asked. He was once quoted as saying something like "It was something that used to happen in the old days" and that is about as much as he has said on it.

When the blues musician B.B. King was asked about people stealing lyrics from older songs he replied, "I don't think anybody steals anything; all of us borrow."

It is a fascinating topic and I could go on for hours about it but I shall restrain myself from doing so at the risk of boring everyone else.

Mark

[Erthona]

"but does anyone else notice the similarity in the opening lines of the lyric?"

Well I guess Wiki did as they cited Dylan's "Hard Rain" as a modern usage of the Lord Randall form. In terms of copying non-copyrighted material, that is perfectly OK in a legal sense. Most would have the sense to note the section in some way as to not do so is a form of legal plagiarism. Of course nothing will happen to you except you will look bad. In Dylan's case, he has written such good music that was not tainted no one really cares. In terms of what Mark said, ballads and folk tunes were constantly changing. Who knows what the original Lord Randall actually sounded like. I've certainly heard many variation of "Shady Grove", and I have heard variations in Jimmy Driftwood tunes and I knew Jimmy Driftwood (Battle of New Orleans, Tennessee Stud). I've had other folk musicians tell me I was singing one of Jimmy's songs wrong, lyrically, because they heard it differently on some album. But that is how it is with folk songs. Hell Gun's and Roses added a completely new verse to Dylan's "Knockin' on Heaven's Door", not to mention a bunch of other senseless crap, but that is how songs go, especially folk and bluegrass songs, not to mention blues. However today, we have become much more litigious, now it doesn't matter so much who wrote it, but who holds copyright and who holds publishing rights: just like Michael Jackson, or is it Paul McCarthy, holds copyright for "Happy Birthday".
However, in poetry or anything else, no one can copyright form. Such as the idea as repeating the same line at the end of each stanza. That still works fairly well in music if handled the correct way, see Dylan's "It's Not Dark Yet, but it's Getting There". However it is usually a distraction in poetry.

Dale

[milo]

"but does anyone else notice the similarity in the opening lines of the lyric?"

Well I guess Wiki did as they cited Dylan's "Hard Rain" as a modern usage of the Lord Randall form. In terms of copying non-copyrighted material, that is perfectly OK in a legal sense. Most would have the sense to note the section in some way as to not do so is a form of legal plagiarism. Of course nothing will happen to you except you will look bad. In Dylan's case, he has written such good music that was not tainted no one really cares. In terms of what Mark said, ballads and folk tunes were constantly changing. Who knows what the original Lord Randall actually sounded like. I've certainly heard many variation of "Shady Grove", and I have heard variations in Jimmy Driftwood tunes and I knew Jimmy Driftwood (Battle of New Orleans, Tennessee Stud). I've had other folk musicians tell me I was singing one of Jimmy's songs wrong, lyrically, because they heard it differently on some album. But that is how it is with folk songs. Hell Gun's and Roses added a completely new verse to Dylan's "Knockin' on Heaven's Door", not to mention a bunch of other senseless crap, but that is how songs go, especially folk and bluegrass songs, not to mention blues. However today, we have become much more litigious, now it doesn't matter so much who wrote it, but who holds copyright and who holds publishing rights: just like Michael Jackson, or is it Paul McCarthy, holds copyright for "Happy Birthday".
However, in poetry or anything else, no one can copyright form. Such as the idea as repeating the same line at the end of each stanza. That still works fairly well in music if handled the correct way, see Dylan's "It's Not Dark Yet, but it's Getting There". However it is usually a distraction in poetry.

Dale

There were actually a few thousand of these as folk songs before it was formalized as lord randall so I would think it is fair.

[Psyve]

Mel, Mark, Erthona, Milo,
Thank you all. There's a treasure-trove of information in your responses.
I didn't realise the liberal "borrowing" was as rampant as that.
I can see the  non legal issue wityh traditional; old ballads.
I guess its the more recent ones, where someone has objected to his work being copied, that catches the attention of the press more!
Cheers,
Psyve