A Modest Proposal (Meter Discussion)

[lacan123]

A Modest Proposal


My Lady:

If I on penitent knee should bend
(My visage long with sorrow)
Would then my Lady condescend
To blow me in the ‘morrow?


Sir:

I find myself not so inclined                                
Toward your mooted notion;
I regret the morning will not find
My head bowed in devotion.


My Lady:

Fortunate he, who has no qualms
With solitary aberration;
But rather celebrates the charms    
Of autoerotic asphyxiation.

Moved from Serious to Discussion at the op's request. /mod

[rayheinrich]

A Modest Proposal


My Lady:

If I on penitent knee should bend
(My visage long with sorrow)
Would then my Lady condescend
To blow me in the ‘morrow?


Sir:

I find myself not so inclined                                
Toward your mooted notion;
I regret the morning will not find
My head bowed in devotion.


My Lady:

Fortunate he, who has no qualms
With solitary aberration;
But rather celebrates the charms    
Of autoerotic asphyxiation.

Lines 1, 7, 9, 12 aren't iambic tetrameter (fem ends on even lines are just fine).

[Brownlie]

A Modest Proposal


My Lady:

If I on penitent knee should bend
(My visage long with sorrow)
Would then my Lady condescend
To blow me in the ‘morrow?


Sir:

I find myself not so inclined                                
Toward your mooted notion;
I regret the morning will not find
My head bowed in devotion.


My Lady:

Fortunate he, who has no qualms
With solitary aberration;
But rather celebrates the charms    
Of autoerotic asphyxiation.

While the last line is exact it seems to throw off the rhythm. This is a satire of a satire. But I guess you could argue that this is the apotheosis of man's life.  Bang bang whimper and that sort of thing. 

[Erthona]

The first stanza is in common meter. Alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter with an ABAB rhyme pattern. S2 L3 diverges from this as it is a line of iambic pentameter. By the third stanza we have gone off the Reservation.

Fortunate he, who has no qualms   dactyl-trochee-iamb-iamb
With solitary aberration;                    iambic tetrameter     
But rather celebrates the charms      spondee-iambic-iambic-iambic
Of autoerotic asphyxiation.                 I have no idea and I gave you the "tion" stress.

Well, OK! This is a humorous poem, do we need to be so picky about the meter: yes and no. Aside form the fact that this is in serious where we examine every chest hair and anal cavity, the fact that this poem starts off with a consistent and well known form (common meter) through the first six lines of twelve lines. That a particular form is followed for so long sets up the reader to expect it to continue, when it does not it is disruptive to the reading of the poem, that is, it lessens the poem. The reader gets more focused on the idea that he tripped over S2L3 than he is focused on the poem. After that the poem never returns to it's previous form. S3L2 is in iambic tetrameter, except it is suppose to be in iambic trimeter and of course beyond that it just becomes meter vomit. Personally, I like the last line and the lack of meter does not bother me as it has it's own rhythm, but I am uncertain if that would be true if the meter had been maintained, or is only so because it wasn't.

What this indicates is a lack of workable knowledge about meter and what was done by meter was done primarily by ear. To call oneself a poet, one must at least possess competency in all the standard metrical forms, not only for ones integrity, but also it is a necessary understanding when one moves away from formal poetry and into non-meter rhythmical forms of poetry. To approach such poetic forms without such understanding is to at best give an unaware and superficial treatment.      

Although humorous, the poem is not altogether original.
There are a number of cliche, that may or may not benefit the poem.
__________________________________________________________
If I on penitent knee should bend   Dost thou mean bow? Knees bend, men bow.

(My visage long with sorrow)
Would then my Lady condescend
To blow me in the ‘morrow?     How does one blow one in the morrow,  "on" possibly?
 
I find myself not so inclined
Toward your mooted notion;      Why is this notion debatable? "hateful?"
I regret the morning will not find   Why would she regret it? She does not want to do it?
My head bowed in devotion.        
 
Fortunate he, who has no qualms
With solitary aberration;
But rather celebrates the charms
Of autoerotic asphyxiation.
____________________________________________________________________________

Welcome to the site,

Dale

[rayheinrich]

oops, uh, well, i tried <chagrinned>

And yes, welcome to the site.

[fromcancertocapricorn]

A Modest Proposal


My Lady:

If I on penitent knee should bend
(My visage long with sorrow)
Would then my Lady condescend
To blow me in the ‘morrow?


Sir:

I find myself not so inclined                                
Toward your mooted notion;
I regret the morning will not find
My head bowed in devotion.


My Lady:

Fortunate he, who has no qualms
With solitary aberration;
But rather celebrates the charms    
Of autoerotic asphyxiation.

This poem is very funny, and I think it accomplishes its goal. A note on meter: other users have noted that to call oneself a poet you must be able to use meter aptly. This is simply not true. Many of the greatest poets never used meter, and honestly, while it is apparent you attempted meter, there's nothing wrong with changing it from the typical norm. Either you intentionally changed it to develop your unique rhythm, or you tried and failed at actual meter. That's my assessment. Carry on.

[lacan123]

Thank you so much - I was quite dismayed by some of the responses - my intention was exactly what you read: it was just meant as a sort of over-the-top fancy joke. So I was a bit taken aback when someone said it descended into "meter vomit"!

I hadn't consciously thought about meter when I wrote it, I just played it by ear; but my research this evening confirms what I suspected and what you write: I can't find a single poem written in common meter that sticks rigidly to it - it would sound like a metronome if you did. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the first stanza is 9 7 8 7 - which isn't common meter.

Anyway, my intention was really to entertain and I'm pleased I succeeded at least once!

Kind regards

David

Oh - I was going to end it with something like:


Your private chamber sees such traffic
We may yet need install
A ticket booth atop the stair
And parking in the hall.

[milo]

Thank you so much - I was quite dismayed by some of the responses - my intention was exactly what you read: it was just meant as a sort of over-the-top fancy joke. So I was a bit taken aback when someone said it descended into "meter vomit"!

I hadn't consciously thought about meter when I wrote it, I just played it by ear; but my research this evening confirms what I suspected and what you write: I can't find a single poem written in common meter that sticks rigidly to it - it would sound like a metronome if you did. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the first stanza is 9 7 8 7 - which isn't common meter.

Anyway, my intention was really to entertain and I'm pleased I succeeded at least once!

common meter is always 4-3-4-3

Every successful poem written in common meter that I have read sticks to it pretty rigidly.  It is pretty rare to see variances in common meter.  Try singing the poem to the Gilligan's Island theme song if you want to find the holes.

[lacan123]

I looked at the first 10-15 examples in common meter I came across (Wordsworth, Coleridge, Emily Dickinson, - everything Wikipedia refers to and some more) and not a single one sticks to 8686. Not even the lyrics to Gilligan's Island.

"Because I could not stop for Death" is the strictest - Rime of the Ancient Mariner goes all over the shop.

Which examples were you thinking of Milo?

[rayheinrich]

i can hardly wait...

[milo]

I looked at the first 10-15 examples in common meter I came across (Wordsworth, Coleridge, Emily Dickinson, - everything Wikipedia refers to and some more) and not a single one sticks to 8686. Not even the lyrics to Gilligan's Island.

"Because I could not stop for Death" is the strictest - Rime of the Ancient Mariner goes all over the shop.

Which examples were you thinking of Milo?

8-6-6-8-6 is not common meter it is syllable count.  Either way, Wikipedia will do fine I guess:

1. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
   That saved a wretch like me!
   I once was lost, but now am found;
   Was blind, but now I see.
   
   
2. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
   And grace my fears relieved;
   How precious did that grace appear
   The hour I first believed.
   
   
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares,
   I have already come;
   ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
   And grace will lead me home.
   
   
4. The Lord has promised good to me,
   His Word my hope secures;
   He will my Shield and Portion be,
   As long as life endures.
   
   
5. Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
   And mortal life shall cease,
   I shall possess, within the veil,
   A life of joy and peace.
   
   
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
   The sun forbear to shine;
   But God, who called me here below,
   Will be forever mine.
   
   
7. When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
   Bright shining as the sun,
   We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
   Than when we’d first begun.
   
   

perfect common meter

Wordsworth's LUCY

http://www.poetry-archive.com/w/lucy.html

(warning, very long)  in perfect common meter

etc., etc.

Post a link to some of those you found that do not stick to common meter perhaps?

BTW - Gilligan's island is common meter with anapaestic subs - it is still 4-3-4-3

[billy]

it's not called common meter for nothing. i think the person said a poet should know about meter. i agree, usually it's our understanding of a subject that allows us to play with it. not knowing (at least ) the basics usually shows us to be a new or inexperienced poet. something we can all attest to being at some stage in our journey.


the poem;
let's remember this is the serious forum so you have to expect pretty much [total honesty]

do i like it? in places yes
is it a good poem? not in the slightest though that could be a little harsh.
i pretty much like the first verse though only as a fancy. it feel like a for fun piece and unless polished ie; consistent meter, be it common or other, i'd also hope for it to be at least double in length i also see that the woman speaks of the man in the 2nd and 3rd person. as the third person i'd suggest using some device to show the last verse as more of a thought. all in all it's a bit of double talk wrapped in a poem.

A Modest Proposal


My Lady:

If I on penitent knee should bend
(My visage long with sorrow)
Would then my Lady condescend
To blow me in the ‘morrow? on the morrow,


Sir:

I find myself not so inclined                                
Toward your mooted notion;
I regret the morning will not find extra half foot,
My head bowed in devotion.


My Lady:

Fortunate he, who has no qualms
With solitary aberration; off meter
But rather celebrates the charms     off meter
Of autoerotic asphyxiation. well off meter.

[Leanne]

Please take any further discussions regarding meter to the Poetry Discussion forum -- it has been pointed out and rejected by the OP, therefore further comments addressing meter are of no benefit/ Admin

[lacan123]

But Milo, and Billy, and Erthona: isn't Common Meter defined not simply as 4-3-4-3, but rather 4 iambs, 3 iambs, 4 iambs, 3 iambs?

That's what it says in the first four dictionaries I looked in. In fact Common Meter is often defined as Iambic Tetrameter / Iambic Trimeter.

So, by definition, Common Meter is 8.6 8.6.

Which would mean Amazing Grace, the Lucy Poems, et al are not, strictly speaking, "perfect common meter"?

[ellajam]

Thank you so much - I was quite dismayed by some of the responses - my intention was exactly what you read: it was just meant as a sort of over-the-top fancy joke. So I was a bit taken aback when someone said it descended into "meter vomit"!

I hadn't consciously thought about meter when I wrote it, I just played it by ear; but my research this evening confirms what I suspected and what you write: I can't find a single poem written in common meter that sticks rigidly to it - it would sound like a metronome if you did. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the first stanza is 9 7 8 7 - which isn't common meter.

Anyway, my intention was really to entertain and I'm pleased I succeeded at least once!

Kind regards

David

Oh - I was going to end it with something like:


Your private chamber sees such traffic
We may yet need install
A ticket booth atop the stair
And parking in the hall.

You may have had a different response if you had posted in Fun. Just click on each forum name to learn what to expect from each. I like the above ending.

[Erthona]

Ican wrote: "But Milo, and Billy, and Erthona: isn't Common Meter defined not simply as 4-3-4-3, but rather 4 iambs, 3 iambs, 4 iambs, 3 iambs?"

I believe I already spoke to that earlier.

Erthona wrote: "The first stanza is in common meter. Alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter with an ABAB rhyme pattern."

Maybe you should actually try reading what has been written, rather than being so focused on trying to defend yourself. This is a site for improving your poetry. However that is impossible if the writer takes an adversarial attitude towards critique. If all you want is praise, there are plenty of vanity poetry sites around where you will never have to contend with negative feedback again.

Dale

[milo]

This post has already received 1 mod warning.  If members wish to continue discussing common metre they can open a thread in the discussion forum.

[lacan123]

Thanks Milo - how do I move the thread to the discussion forum? I.e. is there a way to move the contents of it?

Erthona - thanks your comment. Of course I'm open to critique - but I wanted to check I was receiving factually accurate critique. You originally wrote "The first stanza is in common meter. Alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter." What I was humbly questioning was whether it does in fact alternate "lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter". It doesn't seem to.

In any case, is there a way, Moderator, to move the thread, lock stock, to the more appropriate forum?

I'm very keen to learn more about meter etc.

[tectak]

Thanks Milo - how do I move the thread to the discussion forum? I.e. is there a way to move the contents of it?

Erthona - thanks your comment. Of course I'm open to critique - but I wanted to check I was receiving factually accurate critique. You originally wrote "The first stanza is in common meter. Alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter." What I was humbly questioning was whether it does in fact alternate "lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter". It doesn't seem to.

In any case, is there a way, Moderator, to move the thread, lock stock, to the more appropriate forum?

I'm very keen to learn more about meter etc.

...oh boy,this could run and run
tectak

[shemthepenman]

Thanks Milo - how do I move the thread to the discussion forum? I.e. is there a way to move the contents of it?

Erthona - thanks your comment. Of course I'm open to critique - but I wanted to check I was receiving factually accurate critique. You originally wrote "The first stanza is in common meter. Alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter." What I was humbly questioning was whether it does in fact alternate "lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter". It doesn't seem to.

In any case, is there a way, Moderator, to move the thread, lock stock, to the more appropriate forum?

I'm very keen to learn more about meter etc.

Oh my, two mod warnings, you're in trouble now, son Talk about getting off on the wrong foot. Fucking around with metre in Serious is like fucking with people's emotions.