Great article from the November Poetry Magazine

[crow]

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetryma...cle/249062

[shemthepenman]

once again you have posted a thread that will keep me up all night writing a rebuttal ;/

[Erthona]

Referring to the article. I would say the information is generally correct, however the conclusions drawn are not, which is something of a surprise as the writer is James Longenbach who is both poet and critic. It is true that because of the Norman invasion in 1066 (also the date of the beginning of middle English) that over fifty percent of current English words are derived from French. This is so, because the Normans were French, and anybody who wished to advance himself learned to speak French (which at the time was no more than a dialect of Latin). As a result, the Germanic words, "old English" began to be seen as crude and vulgar. The French became the high language, and the German became the low language. The thesis of the article was that one could consciously choose either the Germanic words, which are general short and sharp words, or the French words are generally more elongated, to good effect. I disagree, as I believe, based upon my experience that the better poetry comes about when one sets that part of the mind (the part of conscious thought needed to use such a device) aside. I know many will disagree with me, so be it. As Longenbach noted even small children are aware of the different was of manipulating words for best outcome. It should be even more so for adults, and for someone who practices poetry, greater still. One can make oneself aware of these distinctions so that they are available without needing to make this into a conscious effort.
Should you read the article, sure if you haven't been introduced to this concept before, and would like to get an important history lesson along the way.
Thanks Crow, It was entertaining and thought provoking.
Dale

[rayheinrich]

Referring to the article. I would say the information is generally correct, however the conclusions drawn are not, which is something of a surprise as the writer is James Longenbach who is both poet and critic. It is true that because of the Norman invasion in 1066 (also the date of the beginning of middle English) that over fifty percent of current English words are derived from French. This is so, because the Normans were French, and anybody who wished to advance himself learned to speak French (which at the time was no more than a dialect of Latin). As a result, the Germanic words, "old English" began to be seen as crude and vulgar. The French became the high language, and the German became the low language. The thesis of the article was that one could consciously choose either the Germanic words, which are general short and sharp words, or the French words are generally more elongated, to good effect. I disagree, as I believe, based upon my experience that the better poetry comes about when one sets that part of the mind (the part of conscious thought needed to use such a device) aside. I know many will disagree with me, so be it. As Longenbach noted even small children are aware of the different was of manipulating words for best outcome. It should be even more so for adults, and for someone who practices poetry, greater still. One can make oneself aware of these distinctions so that they are available without needing to make this into a conscious effort.
Should you read the article, sure if you haven't been introduced to this concept before, and would like to get an important history lesson along the way.
Thanks Crow, It was entertaining and thought provoking.
Dale

Yes, thinking deeply about walking is best reserved for those times when one isn't walking.

I haven't changed my sheets in three months.

Germans should never have spoken in the first place.

Manipulating words for the best outcome should be left to small children and adults;
poets attempting such feats invariably trip over them because they involve thinking
about walking.

[Erthona]

Over-thinking a poem while in the midst of writing quickly leads to writers block.
Relying on the mundane mind to write poetry usually gives one mundane poetry.
The mundane mind is good for counting change, telling the color at a traffic light and what it means, and remembering when to pick up your dry cleaning. It is very good at doing the things it does. Most people are such control freaks that they do not like the idea that a part of the mind over which they have no control, writes the poems. To even consider such a thing would put them in a panic. Yet, what do they mean when they say they were inspired, does it only mean that something "out there" reminded them of something of which they wrote a poem about. Not to be disrespectful, but it amazes me at what a superficial level people examine, and are aware of their own minds...Ray
Dale

[rayheinrich]

Over-thinking a poem while in the midst of writing quickly leads to writers block.

How true (personally verified and externally unsubstantiated).

Relying on the mundane mind to write poetry usually gives one mundane poetry.

On the face of it this rings true, though, modestly, it is impossible
for me to personally verify this.

... Most people are such control freaks that they do not like the idea that a
part of the mind over which they have no control, writes the poems.

And yet they accept their ability to text while driving (ironic obversity intended).

Yet, what do they mean when they say they were inspired, does it only mean that
something "out there" reminded them of something of which they wrote a poem about.
Not to be disrespectful, but it amazes me at what a superficial level people examine,
and are aware of their own minds...Ray
Dale

And yet I feel most deeply that this "they" must be forgiven for not
being conscious of their subconscious. Can a mind being aware of itself?
This is both burlesquely paradoxical and experiencially self-evident.  

Except for us.

Oh hell! We might as well admit it:

We are the elite.

As modestly and sincerely as always,
Ray


“Sometimes I write drunk and revise sober, and sometimes I write sober and revise drunk.
But you have to have both elements in creation — the Apollonian and the Dionysian,
or spontaneity and restraint, emotion and discipline.”
-- Peter De Vries from "Reuben, Reuben"
(The phrase "write drunk, edit sober" is often attributed, apocryphally it seems)
to the always earnest Ernest Hemingway.)