< the paper wasps >

[rayheinrich]

                                                          < the paper wasps >
                                                     
                                                   build their nest out      
                                                   from the white boards under
                                                   the eaves of our house

                                                   right above the kitchen door
   
                                                   and i see them each day      
                                                   and every day      
                                                           as i walk the dog  
                                                           as i take out the trash      
                                                           as i let out the cats      
                                                           as i let in the cats    
                                                           as i let out the cats
                                                   and my neighbors    
                                                   and friends      
                                                   and the people who would sell me god
                                                   and all the rest of life that passes through...
                                                     
                                                   they've never stung us
 
                                                   a miracle 
   
                                                   as they are paper wasps and known for being 

 
                                                   very irritable


                                                   and today

                                                   someone

                                                   suggested
 
                                                   that i kill them    
     
                                                         - - -

   
   

[cidermaid]

Hi Ray,
another solid and profound write from you.  
I know that this is in misc and that generally you do not workshop as such, but i will leave you my thoughts for you to toss or consider as you see fit.

                                                          < the paper wasps >
                                                     
                                                   build their nest out      
                                                   from the white boards under
                                                   the eaves of my mom's house
                                                   that will be mine someday     
                                                   and i see them each day (since they're above the kitchen door)      Felt like I either did not need the extra info in brackets at all or it could be made into a pithier line as part of the main text.  (Set out like this I found it irrelevant and distracting especially given the depth that I found in the last lines)
                                                   and every day      
                                                           as i take out the trash    Felt that I only needed either the trash or the dog detail - not both, but nothing wrong as such just an opinion.  (But loved the cat lines)
                                                           as i walk the dog    
                                                           as i let out the cats      
                                                           as i let in the cats    
                                                           as i let out the cats
                                                   and my neighbors    
                                                   and friends      
                                                   and the people who would sell me god
                                                   and all the rest of life that passes through...
                                                     
                                                   they've never stung us  Liked the line / white space here.   Emphasises the twist that runs right through this poem - the ambiguity of the the meaning the voice is giving these words.  Brilliant.
                                                     
                                                   a miracle
                                                     
                                                   as they are paper wasps and known for being  I am sure you will point out my wrongness if I say that i did not feel the need for the white space between this line and the one above.  I want to have the run on from the miracle line to give the line in bold even more distinction.   (Just my take on it).

     
                                                   very irritable


                                                   and today


                                                   someone


                                                   suggested

   
                                                   that i kill them    

       
                                                         - - -
   
   

Really enjoyed this one.  Great read.
Thanks for sharing AJ.

[bena]

I always love the simplicity of your scenic descriptions, then you always give me a complex quandary to ponder at the end. I always wonder why some animals are considered "pests" when in reality they are beneficial to the ecosystem, and in general don't give a crap what you do as long as they are left alone. Wasps sting in self-defence. It's a complex application to life in general...why destroy what doesn't hurt you?

Not a crit, I know but it is 4 am and I am just happy to read something that makes me think, thanks.

mel.

[rayheinrich]

Hi Ray,
another solid and profound write from you.  
I know that this is in misc and that generally you do not workshop as such, but i will leave you my thoughts for you to toss or consider as you see fit.

Note: To confuse and bewilder (and out of sloth), all changes below are reflected above and not in the text below.


                                                          < the paper wasps >
                                                     
                                                   build their nest out      
                                                   from the white boards under
                                                   the eaves of my mom's house
                                                   that will be mine someday     
                                                   and i see them each day (since they're above the kitchen door)      Felt like I either did not need the extra info in brackets at all or it could be made into a pithier line as part of the main text.  (Set out like this I found it irrelevant and distracting especially given the depth that I found in the last lines)
Yes, see what you mean. While I liked the personal aside and the fact that it didn't fit, it really doesn't
fit a bit too much. I worked it into the main text (see above). Much better.
                                                   and every day      
                                                           as i take out the trash    Felt that I only needed either the trash or the dog detail - not both, but nothing wrong as such just an opinion.  (But loved the cat lines)
I wouldn't there to be all dogs and cats, so the mundane trash is important. But I just can't
leave the dog out as that's like picking favorites from among your kids. Which nobody reading
the poem would know, but I would. Odd that should matter, but it does. So I'm stuck. But I moved
the trash down so it's between the dog and the cats. This tones down the trash (part of what
you were getting at) and provides a symmetry I like. Lord help the trash, it's going to get ripped
apart and spread out over the whole lawn.
                                                           as i walk the dog    
                                                           as i let out the cats      
                                                           as i let in the cats    
                                                           as i let out the cats
                                                   and my neighbors    
                                                   and friends      
                                                   and the people who would sell me god
                                                   and all the rest of life that passes through...
                                                     
                                                   they've never stung us  Liked the line / white space here.   Emphasises the twist that runs right through this poem - the ambiguity of the the meaning the voice is giving these words.  Brilliant.
                                                     
                                                   a miracle
                                                     
                                                   as they are paper wasps and known for being  I am sure you will point out my wrongness if I say that i did not feel the need for the white space between this line and the one above.  I want to have the run on from the miracle line to give the line in bold even more distinction.
(Just my take on it).
While the content exists as you say,  the symmetry on the page and the emphasis made by 'miracle'
sitting by itself is too much too resist.

     
                                                   very irritable


                                                   and today


                                                   someone


                                                   suggested

   
                                                   that i kill them    

       
                                                         - - -
   
   

Really enjoyed this one.  Great read.
Thanks for sharing AJ.

Thanks for your comments, they've really helped me make it a better poem.

[rayheinrich]

I always love the simplicity of your scenic descriptions, then you always give me a complex quandary to  ponder at the end.  I always wonder why some animals are considered "pests" when in reality they are beneficial to the ecosystem, and in general don't give a crap what you do as long as they are left alone.  Wasps sting in self-defence.  

These guys seem to derive a bit of pleasure from it; which, all things considered, makes their restraint more admirable.

It's a complex application to life in general...why destroy what doesn't hurt you?

It's called "preemptive self-defense" as in:
"We did not attack them, we were exercising our right to preemptive self-defense."

Not a crit, I know but it is 4 am and I am just happy to read something that makes me think, thanks.

mel.

What a deeply astute, discerning, insightful, knowledgeable (as well as wise) criticism
for any time, much less 4 am. (Though, truth be known, I've always found 4 am thoughts to be
SO much closer to cosmic truthiness than thoughts at any other time [except 3 am].)

I have a neighbor who's much more irritable than the wasps. He's the one who suggested killing them.
The solution is obvious: Leave the wasps alone and kill him.

[ellajam]

I have a new neighbor who practiced preemptive self-defense against every living thing on his property, not a bush or tree left.

[rayheinrich]

I have a new neighbor who practiced preemptive self-defense against every living thing on his property, not a bush or tree left.  

This should be considered an invitation.
Complying (it states in the finer print) will cost you your soul.
But (it goes on to say), the satisfaction might just be worth it.

[Erthona]

Ray,

Are you channeling your inner rowens?

Interpretation, how minorities view White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants, you just never know what they'll complain about next! However they do keep the mosquitoes away.    

Nasreddin tale:

An old man was squatted down, doing something with a stick. A young man was watching over his shoulder, seeing the old man was trying to help a scorpion get off its back. At one point the old man got too close and the scorpion stung him. The old man simply got a longer stick and tried again. The young man said, "Old man, I would just kill the damn thing and be done with it." To which the old man replied, "I have found it counterproductive to kill the thing you are trying to help."  

Dale

[rayheinrich]

Ray,

Are you channeling your inner rowens?

Interpretation, how minorities view White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants, you just never know what they'll complain about next! However they do keep the mosquitoes away.    

Nasreddin tale:

An old man was squatted down, doing something with a stick. A young man was watching over his shoulder, seeing the old man was trying to help a scorpion get off its back. At one point the old man got too close and the scorpion stung him. The old man simply got a longer stick and tried again. The young man said, "Old man, I would just kill the damn thing and be done with it." To which the old man replied, "I have found it counterproductive to kill the thing you are trying to help."  

Dale

[rayheinrich]

Ray,
Are you channeling your inner rowens?
Interpretation, how minorities view White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants, you just never know what they'll complain about next! However they do keep the mosquitoes away.    
Nasreddin tale:
An old man was squatted down, doing something with a stick. A young man was watching over his shoulder, seeing the old man was trying to help a scorpion get off its back. At one point the old man got too close and the scorpion stung him. The old man simply got a longer stick and tried again. The young man said, "Old man, I would just kill the damn thing and be done with it." To which the old man replied, "I have found it counterproductive to kill the thing you are trying to help."  
Dale

Proving, once again, that the old's sense of being is both wrong and admirable.
Oh SCORPION! Where is thy sting?

[billy]

i thought all wasps were territorial and very skittish. i enjoyed the insight as always. i stopped killing things in my teens, the fun of it killed off by knowledge.

[rayheinrich]

i thought all wasps were territorial and very skittish.

I must live in the wasp capital of the world.
I remember when I was a kid around here and there wasn't
a week that went by that we didn't get stung by something
(scorpions as well, but they're pretty mild ones).
Our wasps' skittishness varies all over the place.
Solitary wasps, like the mud dauber (we have lots around
here and they build their nests from mud) aren't aggressive
(I've never been stung by one). With red wasps you have to
get about a foot away before they do something (which
is a bit severe as they are large ones). The paper wasps
(yellow jackets etc.) are, as you say, skittish. Five feet
normally brings 10 or so at you. The worst are the ground
wasps. They make large nests underground and since
they're in an easy-to-get-to location, they have to be
especially fierce to defend it. When I first heard of
Africanized bees I thought of them. If you get within
15-20 feet of them they make this low, loud buzz that's
pretty scary since it seems it's coming from nowhere.
If you keep walking it gets louder. When you get within a
few feet about 50? 200? of them rush out, swarm around
you and keep stinging (bees can only sting once and it
kills them, wasps can sting 5 or 6 times and live).
This has happened to me twice, the last time I was mowing
and couldn't hear their warning. Killer bees can kill you,
these can't, but 100 small wasps buzzing around stinging
me on my face, up my shorts, etc. reduced me to an extremely
painful, red, swollen, psychological mush. Especially around
the eyes, DAMN, just gave myself a PTSD attack!!

[bena]

BTW ^^ up above when quoted Dale and nothing else showed, that's what I meant in pm

Not sure where you are Ray, but I assume a scorpion infested area. (heh) ---your retort to Dale reminded me of Taming of the Shrew::

Petruchio: Come, come, you wasp! In faith you are too angry!

Katherina: If I be waspish, best beware my sting!

Petruchio: My remedy then is to pluck it out!

Katherina: Hah! Aye, if the fool could find where it lies!

Petruchio: Who knows not where a wasp doth wear his sting? In his tail!

Katherina: In his tongue!

Petruchio: Whose tongue?

Katherina: Yours! -if you talk of tales, and so farewell!

Petruchio: What, with my tongue in your tail?


Butt
in order to clarify--and I'm not sure it even matters--

Hornets are super aggressive and sting is the worse (huge beehive like structure in tree)
The wasps pictured in your poem are not aggressive. That's why I said they don't really care.
You mentioned red wasps, here they are called mahogany even tough they look bright orange. Don't ask me, I made none of this names up. They are slightly more aggressive.
Potter wasps make a nest under leaves that if you turn right-side-up it looks like potter's bowl.
The ones underground are yelllow jackets and you were attacked because any type of vibration (especially things like power tools/mowers) are taken as an attack of the hive and themselves. And they sure feel those vibrations in the ground.

There are thousands more in this category, but all are paper wasps.

Mud daubers, hell I've held in my hand as well as clobbered their nests with my hands. About the only time these guys will sting is if you are holding them and close your fist.

Wasps can sting as many times as they want, after about 5-6 they will run out of venom for the moment, but just like snakes, it is replenished. Stinging will not kill wasps, unless you smack the bejeebus out of one for doing so.

And yeah, Africanized bees are scary, but the reason they are so damned "killer" is because their hives contain thousands and thousands of bees and like all social insects that sting (wasps included) once one sting, a pheromone bullseye is on you.

Even one tiny honey bee can kill someone if they are allergic ;-)

and now um yeah...more than anyone ever wanted to know.


mel the animal lover

[rayheinrich]

The hubris of locality.
Your common names are different from mine.
There are thousands of species of the damn things.

My paper wasps make nests in the eves and are irritable.

Next you'll be telling me your pronunciation of tomato is the correct one.

But on those hornets? You're flat-out wrong.
When I was in the Army I was a radar repairman. The hornets built nests
in the towers. I'd sometimes I'd wait 30 minutes on a tower waiting for a
repair confirmation with a hornet nest 10 feet away. They're 1.25 inches
of scary, but they never stung any of us.

[billy]

Killer bees can kill you, this is not an understatement

i thought all wasps were territorial and very skittish.

I must live in the wasp capital of the world.
I remember when I was a kid around here and there wasn't
a week that went by that we didn't get stung by something
(scorpions as well, but they're pretty mild ones).
Our wasps' skittishness varies all over the place.
Solitary wasps, like the mud dauber (we have lots around
here and they build their nests from mud) aren't aggressive
(I've never been stung by one). With red wasps you have to
get about a foot away before they do something (which
is a bit severe as they are large ones). The paper wasps
(yellow jackets etc.) are, as you say, skittish. Five feet
normally brings 10 or so at you. The worst are the ground
wasps. They make large nests underground and since
they're in an easy-to-get-to location, they have to be
especially fierce to defend it. When I first heard of
Africanized bees I thought of them. If you get within
15-20 feet of them they make this low, loud buzz that's
pretty scary since it seems it's coming from nowhere.
If you keep walking it gets louder. When you get within a
few feet about 50? 200? of them rush out, swarm around
you and keep stinging (bees can only sting once and it
kills them, wasps can sting 5 or 6 times and live).
This has happened to me twice, the last time I was mowing
and couldn't hear their warning. Killer bees can kill you,
these can't, but 100 small wasps buzzing around stinging
me on my face, up my shorts, etc. reduced me to an extremely
painful, red, swollen, psychological mush. Especially around
the eyes, DAMN, just gave myself a PTSD attack!!

[ray]

build their nest out from the white boards under   -  out from sounds ugly, I have to say, and I can't really work out what you mean. Attached to the white boards. I liked the poem, I liked wondering if the suggestion was to kill the wasps or the friends and neighbours.

[heslopian]

The "miracle/irritable" rhyme struck me as a little cute, but otherwise I really really enjoyed this poem. Your work reminds me of William Carlos Williams', which might be a lazy way of saying your poems have unique forms and narratives, as well as a sharp, understated approach to perspective. They reach complex ideas in deceptively straightforward ways. They're about nothing and everything. I particularly enjoyed the "as i" list in S2, which very elegantly conveys the passing of time. Thank you for the read

[just mercedes]

I enjoyed your poem very much, and admire how a simple description of daily life in a particular place can also show a psychic atmosphere. Maybe your paper wasps are like my magpies, who attack strangers during nesting season, but leave the locals alone.

[rayheinrich]

build their nest out from the white boards under   -  out from sounds ugly, I have to say, and I can't really work out what you mean. Attached to the white boards. I liked the poem, I liked wondering if the suggestion was to kill the wasps or the friends and neighbors.

Their nests are small, usually 1 to 2 inches in diameter (though
sometimes much larger) and are tucked up under the eves (to provide protection from the weather) in such a way as to not be easily seen. I.e. they're not ugly. And I don't think killing the neighbors is an option.

Though if a neighbor tried to harm one of the cats, I just might shoot him/her. This is not a decision to be considered lightly as my armament
(a modest revolver, a single-shot target rifle, and very little ammunition)
is quite inferior to theirs. Most of them have quite the arsenal which always includes several shotguns which are much the superior weapon at
typical suburban distances.

Killer bees can kill you, this is not an understatement

But these are wasps with a milder sting and not as many.
BUT the most important thing is they haven't stung anybody as yet.
So, morally, what is the correct course of action?

The "miracle/irritable" rhyme struck me as a little cute, but otherwise I really really enjoyed this poem. Your work reminds me of William Carlos Williams', which might be a lazy way of saying your poems have unique forms and narratives, as well as a sharp, understated approach to perspective. They reach complex ideas in deceptively straightforward ways. They're about nothing and everything. I particularly enjoyed the "as i" list in S2, which very elegantly conveys the passing of time. Thank you for the read

Yeah, you're correct, one of my flaws is cuteness. If I were
only a kitten...

Any positive comparison of my stuff to Williams' is immensely flattering
as I worship him as a god (a bit retro, but, there it is). You must be
a god well.

very well written and emotionally tight.  the psychological question ends the whole nicely, but from one who has been bitten and stung into 3 day of sick I'd say KILL THEM.

This would have a deep (if terribly subjective) effect on me as
well. While I have been swarmed and stung 30-40 times and still suffer a
bit of PTSD from the experience, I was in pain (immense) for less than 24
hours and was not, technically, sick.

I enjoyed your poem very much, and admire how a simple description of daily life in a particular place can also show a psychic atmosphere. Maybe your paper wasps are like my magpies, who attack strangers during nesting season, but leave the locals alone.

Ah, magpies! They're smarter than most of my neighbors (I hereby
apologize to all 'maggies'; as you're obviously much much smarter).

I do think there's some 'accommodation' at work here because we came and
went quite regularly when they were deciding on the location and when they
were building their nest. I think that if they'd built it while we were
away their reaction would be much different. I'd like to think they thought
of us as friends (though 'harmless' is probably a more apt description.)

-----------------

Short:
They haven't stung anybody as yet.
So, morally, what is the correct course of action?

Longer:
The poem's intent (from my not any more correct than any other's interpretation) is to bring up two questions.

1. How does (or how much of) our moral code applies to wasps (and by
inference other living things).

I.E. How the fuck should they be treated?)


2. What requirements have to be met in order to justify preemptive
'self-defense'?

I.E. When are you 'in fear of your life' enough to kill someone?

When should a nation use nuclear weapons to defend itself
or invade another nation to prevent it from attacking them?