Senryu 26.08.14

[Magpie]

out walking late
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

[Tiger the Lion]

Hey AR. I like it too. For me, it does make a statement of sorts. The irony of "screams/quiet".

Similarly:

an empty parking lot
a woman screams at her child
to be quiet

Happens all the time. Nice observation.

[ellajam]

It made me think of

dark theater
mother's shushing louder
than baby's fussing

[Magpie]

out walking late
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

Hi AR..this is a good moment you captured. No grand statements or revelations. Just a portrait, and that's all it needs to be.

The participle "walking" is dangled, meaning that there is ambiguity because the object isn't clearly defined. In other words, who is walking? The narrator, or the man?

Consider..

my evening walk
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

Hi fogglethorpe thanks for the comments, you're quite right about the ambiguity, I never noticed that so thanks for pointing it out. My original intention was that it was the man and the dog who the walking refers to, although I don't suppose that is the important part and your suggestion works whilst keeping the original meaning.
Thanks for reading,
Mark

---

Hey AR. I like it too. For me, it does make a statement of sorts. The irony of "screams/quiet".

Similarly:

an empty parking lot
a woman screams at her child
to be quiet

Happens all the time. Nice observation.

Hi Tiger the Lion, thanks for the comments, I'm liking your 'ku also.
Thanks,
Mark

---

It made me think of

dark theater
mother's shushing louder
than baby's fussing

Hi Ellajam, I like this piece, is it well known or from a well known poem, I googled it just to be informed, 'When babies cry in pain it usually means gas'... Which was helpful but not the answer I was looking for.
Thanks for reading,
Mark

[ellajam]

It made me think of

dark theater
mother's shushing louder
than baby's fussing

Hi Ellajam, I like this piece, is it well known or from a well known poem, I googled it just to be informed, 'When babies cry in pain it usually means gas'... Which was helpful but not the answer I was looking for.
Thanks for reading,
Mark

Ha, if nobody's written it before I guess it's mine. It's just what came to mind when I first read your piece. When I read tiger's I decided to post it. I love googling pieces of poems, often end up somewhere interesting, preferably not colic.

[Tiger the Lion]

out walking late
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

Hi AR..this is a good moment you captured. No grand statements or revelations. Just a portrait, and that's all it needs to be.

The participle "walking" is dangled, meaning that there is ambiguity because the object isn't clearly defined. In other words, who is walking? The narrator, or the man?

Consider..

my evening walk
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

Hi fogglethorpe thanks for the comments, you're quite right about the ambiguity, I never noticed that so thanks for pointing it out. My original intention was that it was the man and the dog who the walking refers to, although I don't suppose that is the important part and your suggestion works whilst keeping the original meaning.
Thanks for reading,
Mark

---

Hey AR. I like it too. For me, it does make a statement of sorts. The irony of "screams/quiet".

Similarly:

an empty parking lot
a woman screams at her child
to be quiet

Happens all the time. Nice observation.

Hi Tiger the Lion, thanks for the comments, I'm liking your 'ku also.
Thanks,
Mark

---

It made me think of

dark theater
mother's shushing louder
than baby's fussing

Hi Ellajam, I like this piece, is it well known or from a well known poem, I googled it just to be informed, 'When babies cry in pain it usually means gas'... Which was helpful but not the answer I was looking for.
Thanks for reading,Mark

"Hi Tiger the Lion, thanks for the comments, I'm liking your 'ku also.
Thanks,
Mark"

Appreciated Mark. But it wasn't my 'ku. I just flipped a few words of yours to illustrate how I read it.

[rayheinrich]

out walking late
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

What matter if it's the writer, narrator, man, dog, Emily Dickinson, or all-of-the-above?
The added possibilities (ambiguity) make for a richer poem.

[rayheinrich]

Normally, haiku is free from literary devices like ambiguity, metaphor, etc. But it's not a deal breaker.

A few haiku from master Issa seem to disagree:

the mother eats
the bitter parts -
mountain persimmons

this world of dew
is only a world of dew -
and yet

the spring rain -
a little girl teaches
the cat to dance

my old home
everywhere I touch -
thorns

[rayheinrich]

[spoiler]

I agree that Issa was great. Buson is my favorite.

Issa is my fave, but Shiki comes in a close 2nd

Those have the traditional elements, like juxtaposition, dominant phrases, and seasonal references. But they are pretty straightforward snapshots, otherwise. No metaphors, no contradictions, no ambiguity.

The second one gets a little mystical..but it's ok.

As for ambiguity, it's the one contained in all haiku:

"Just what, given the vastness of the world and our limited
view of it, do these words speak of?" - Noam Chomsky quoting
some famous linguist from the past whose name I have either
forgotten or never knew


And as for metaphors and contradictions:

the mother eats
the bitter parts -
mountain persimmons

Metaphors (among others): sacrifices/responsibilities/sorrows of motherhood
Contradictions: The ones inherent in being a mother joy/grief



this world of dew
is only a world of dew -
and yet

Metaphors: dew = tears, grief, travails of life
Contradictions: the world contains only dew... and yet (there's more than just dew)



the spring rain -
a little girl teaches
the cat to dance

Metaphors:
spring rain (and by inference its dancing drops)= the little girl dancing
(and since spring is the beginning of life it's a little girl
little girl = life
cat = us
to dance = to live life well
(includes the most common metaphor found in haiku:
the first part = the second part)
Contradictions: cats/us can't be taught



my old home
everywhere I touch -
thorns

Metaphors: old home = the past / thorns = painful memories
Contradictions: the hyperbole of 'everywhere I touch'



Here's another one that has all three in spades:

these sea slugs -
they don't seem
Japanese

[Magpie]

Wow, this thread got a bit interesting while I was away. Fascinating discussion and it just leaves me with so many questions as well as lots of answers to questions that I didn't know I even wanted to know.

Do you think that the metaphors are the original intention by the poet or just different interpretations by the reader, because ultimately so many things could be taken as metaphors and especially so in haiku when there is usually a reference to nature.

the spring rain -
a little girl teaches
the cat to dance

I've always just seen this as an image, a brilliant image. But now that you mentioned some metaphors relating to it I can see them all, but was that the original intention when it was written.

Roses;
the flowers are easy to paint,
the leaves difficult.
Shiki

Now I see them everywhere.
Thanks for having this discussion here, because it has helped me a lot and given me lots more information.

Buddha
covered in dust
still smiling

[rayheinrich]

Do you think that the metaphors are the original intention by the poet or just different interpretations by the reader, because ultimately so many things could be taken as metaphors and especially so in haiku when there is usually a reference to nature.

The original intent of a poet is interesting to know and
usually provides insight, but the content of the work is judged by
readers not writers. Could go on but must fix dinner ... see Tennessee Williams quote below.

The others are just my interpretations,
but on these I had some help:

this world of dew
is only a world of dew -
and yet

Issa's documented as having written this after the
death of his daughter. (And he'd lost his other child
a few years earlier.)


my old home
everywhere I touch -
thorns

Issa wrote this on his return to his home town where
he struggled with various relatives over his father's
estate.



Roses;
the flowers are easy to paint,
the leaves difficult.
Shiki

YES!!

--------------------------------------------



"Context? You want context?

I had two eggs with grits, gravy, fried apples, and bacon for breakfast.

Next question." - Tennessee Williams

[billy]

personally i think it should be written as a snapshot/ single image/frame but the reader and the mind sees sometimes, thing that weren't intended. the writer may knowingly use a metaphor if it's an image i suppose but the metaphor i think should be secondary in the writing. clever poets can write clever haiku that serve both ideas. as can be done with other numerous forms.

[rayheinrich]

personally i think it should be written as a snapshot/ single image/frame
but the reader and the mind sees sometimes, thing that weren't intended.
the writer may knowingly use a metaphor if it's an image i suppose but the
metaphor i think should be secondary in the writing. clever poets can write
clever haiku that serve both ideas. as can be done with other numerous forms.

Yes, this holds for all art. The message/meaning that art communicates
to us doesn't just depend on the abilities of the artist, it depends on
the reader's ability to interpret it. The reader's ability depends on
her/his knowledge of the historical time, culture, politics, variations
in the language (meaning of words, phrases, idiomatic expressions etc.)
in which the art was created. Because of this, intended meanings, metaphor,
etc. often go unnoticed.

Many of Basho's haiku were written as commentary on personal events,
the politics of his time, as well as on historical events. If it wasn't for
some of his students, who compiled quotations from him about his own
poetry, these would go unnoticed. Shakespeare's plays are filled with jokes,
puns, political references; many of these have only recently been discovered.

And yes, the reader perceives messages/meanings in the art that were not
intended by the artist, that are a product of the differences between the
artist and the reader.

At some point, depending on how much effort you want to put into it,
you take it as it stands; you accept that it's a product of both you and
the artist. It's beautiful.

But it's a mistake to assume that what you don't see isn't there.

Sometimes you know what you don't know, most of the time you don't.

[haikutec]

Hi!

out walking late
a man screams at his dog
to be quiet

Senryu can certainly be statements loaded with irony. Dogs sure do suffer from their owners sometimes.

The dog may have been a bit yappy but screaming at it won't be effective, and make everyone jump out of their beds or curtain pop, that's for sure.

Very funny!

warm regards,

Alan