Freedom of expression in Poetry.

[Leanne]

Are you suggesting that the general public is not capable of intelligence? Or perhaps that poets are not capable of analysis other than on a purely emotional basis?

[billy]

Oh come on, all of us can tell when a writer is depicting a horrific scene and when the writer is stating his or her personal views on a controversial subject.

Not if it's a good poem -- that is, for the duration of a well-written poem, the author is absent and all that is present is the voice speaking to the reader. If we absolutely must place so much emphasis on "what the writer is thinking", we're not experiencing the poem, we're judging the poet.

---

I lie all the time in poems. I am really a middle-aged lorry driver from Ilford, and my only vice is the burning need to eviscerate puppies.

That sounds like turning poetry into an academic exercise, no wonder the general public doesn’t bother with it..

if you count the number of people in poetry forums, the amount would be greater than many think. even dividing them two or three times for all the forums they're in. not so many good or great poets but a lot of reasonable ones.

i think once you mix the poet and poem you come up with something the poet never intended. i look at the 1st and 2nd person within a poem but never look to the poet. shit, i thought george eliot was a man for the longest time, even after reading her works. the poet should lead and we should follow wear he goes, we should never try and see who they are within the poem. outside and from their poetry as a whole maybe but not from a single poem. academic exercise seems to be the opposite end of the starting posts spectrum. why can't there be a middle ground where the reader is a discerning reader and the poet is a decent poet. when i see leanne do a sonnet i often wish i had some schooling under my belt. while i dislike the crass academia of a secular specialist. we need the good academe who are their to share their knowledge and not procrastinate they're genius.

[ellajam]

It's true that much of the general public prefers their touchstone with humanity without art. The popularity of "reality" TV in the US proves this. The artist tries to communicate a moment/emotion/scene/opinion/situation in an interesting, unique way. It may not reach or impress the masses, but that doesn't stop the artist from doing the best that they can to express anything they choose to, whether they have experienced it directly or not.

Rowans may be sitting in his penthouse pondering which charity gets a check today, who knows or cares when reading his work? We write from where we choose to.

[milo]

Oh come on, all of us can tell when a writer is depicting a horrific scene and when the writer is stating his or her personal views on a controversial subject.

Not if it's a good poem -- that is, for the duration of a well-written poem, the author is absent and all that is present is the voice speaking to the reader. If we absolutely must place so much emphasis on "what the writer is thinking", we're not experiencing the poem, we're judging the poet.

---

I lie all the time in poems. I am really a middle-aged lorry driver from Ilford, and my only vice is the burning need to eviscerate puppies.

That sounds like turning poetry into an academic exercise, no wonder the general public doesn’t bother with it..

You believe fiction writers and television/movie writers can do this but all those poor inept poets are dependent on personal exposition?

You are sadly confused about the place of poetry in writing.

[Carousal]

Not if it's a good poem -- that is, for the duration of a well-written poem, the author is absent and all that is present is the voice speaking to the reader. If we absolutely must place so much emphasis on "what the writer is thinking", we're not experiencing the poem, we're judging the poet.

---

I lie all the time in poems. I am really a middle-aged lorry driver from Ilford, and my only vice is the burning need to eviscerate puppies.

That sounds like turning poetry into an academic exercise, no wonder the general public doesn’t bother with it..

You believe fiction writers and television/movie writers can do this but all those poor inept poets are dependent on personal exposition?

You are sadly confused about the place of poetry in writing.

And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

[milo]

That sounds like turning poetry into an academic exercise, no wonder the general public doesn’t bother with it..

You believe fiction writers and television/movie writers can do this but all those poor inept poets are dependent on personal exposition?

You are sadly confused about the place of poetry in writing.

And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

You believe that j. K. Rowling is actually a wizard??!!)

[Truerenigma]

You believe fiction writers and television/movie writers can do this but all those poor inept poets are dependent on personal exposition?

You are sadly confused about the place of poetry in writing.

And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

You believe that j. K. Rowling is actually a wizard??!!)

Of course he was!

My view on this is pretty simple--I don't have one.

If the poetry is good, and successfully engages the reader, who cares about the rest?

For me a good poem engages the intellect and/or senses and/or makes me laugh. A great poem does the same while engaging me emotionally as well, but that's a private matter and none of your (or even the poet's) business.

Can't the reader just enjoy the poem for what it is--a poem--and formulate their own opinions about how they affect themselves emotionally or ethically, and leave the poet out of it?

[billy]

And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

why do you see him or anyone in an ivory tower. i don't see anyone in any tower not him, not you not god, i see a few poets who know a fair bit more than i do and i'm happy they're on the site sharing what they know.
when i read their poetry i don't see them, i just see the poem. i don't want to see them in a poem, i do enjoy seeing their wit dotted about the site though. why does it have to be about milo or anyone else, just enjoy the poetry and if you can help someone improve, try and help them. milo i his ivory tower and leanne in the her outback have helped me more than i care to admit. for that i'm thankful. even then i don't see the poet, i see a person who's a teacher.

[milo]

And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

why do you see him or anyone in an ivory tower. i don't see anyone in any tower not him, not you not god, i see a few poets who know a fair bit more than i do and i'm happy they're on the site sharing what they know.
when i read their poetry i don't see them, i just see the poem. i don't want to see them in a poem, i do enjoy seeing their wit dotted about the site though. why does it have to be about milo or anyone else, just enjoy the poetry and if you can help someone improve, try and help them. milo i his ivory tower and leanne in the her outback have helped me more than i care to admit. for that i'm thankful. even then i don't see the poet, i see a person who's a teacher.

I think he/she is referring to the concept of poets not prostituting their art. They are way off base with me, of course, as I've offerd to sell everything I've ever written for a $100 amazon gift card. Not only will I prostitute, I will work cheap!

[Truerenigma]

I wanna hear more about milo the modernist's plan to take down the ivory tower from the inside.

[NobodyNothing]

I think he/she is referring to the concept of poets not prostituting their art. They are way off base with me, of course, as I've offerd to sell everything I've ever written for a $100 amazon gift card. Not only will I prostitute, I will work cheap!

You got the second good chuckle out of me today (the first being in the grocery store this morning and passing a display for a children's breakfast cereal called "Krave", as in Kellogg's Krave, which, as far as I could tell, was basically chocolate covered sugar).

Everything's pretty much been said that's needed to be said in this thread already, at least before it veered off into this artist-as-whore theme. That, to me, is an entirely different subject matter, and an interesting one at that.

[Carousal]

You believe fiction writers and television/movie writers can do this but all those poor inept poets are dependent on personal exposition?

You are sadly confused about the place of poetry in writing.

And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

You believe that j. K. Rowling is actually a wizard??!!)

No I believe she is a millionairess

---

Are you suggesting that the general public is not capable of intelligence? Or perhaps that poets are not capable of analysis other than on a purely emotional basis?

No the opposite in fact, while neither I or anyone else has the facility of judging the IQ of the general public, most are perfectly capable of reading poetry providing they enjoy the experience.
So it follows that the public find little to enjoy from reading contemporary poetry. Certainly not my opinion alone, from time to time there are articles in the national newspapers and the mass media on the same subject. Google Poetry is Dead and you’ll find them.

It’s not about changing contemporary poetry it’s simply a matter of offering a choice instead of pushing all poetry into a box and discarding everything that doesn’t fit within the confines. Another curious thing is that if a writer follows a laid down list of rules (Poe’s rules have been mentioned on this thread) it somehow that will produce good poetry when we all know that a piece that ticks all the boxes can produce something that is as interesting to read as yesterdays shopping list. Why? Because the main ingredient is left out of the mix, creativity.

The point is that the public, when they read poetry don’t care much about the rules or the lack of them. Millions listen to classical music and attend classical concerts without any knowledge of how to read music.

When ever this subject comes up you always have some writers refusing to what they see is dummying down their work for the public domain. Fine with me but they are usually among the first ones to condemn what they see as easy to read poetry by other writers.

Does Andre Rieu dumb down classical music? Of course he does but others will argue he does so to make it assessable to those who would never listen to it in the way it is normally presented. That’s no excuse to the academics that go ape at the mention of his very name; you would think the guy was a mass child murderer to hear some of the abuse..

Sure when our Andre announces that the next piece is the Concerto de Aranjuez by Joaquín Rodrigo. What you will hear is the theme from bits of the Adagio repeated 5 times complete with a heavenly choir of ladies in ball gowns and it’s also unlikely you will hear a guitar at all. So what, at least a few thousand are enjoying an experience some would never have had.
You will never hear Andre perform Karlheinz Stockhausen’s "Gesang der Junglinge" because it would be stupid to do so. Half the audience would probably walk out.
And you would get a similar reaction if you introduced non poetry readers to The Emperor of Ice-Cream by Wallace Stevens. But maybe a poem such as this may get their attention.



Death in Leamington.

She died in the upstairs bedroom
By the light of the ev'ning star
That shone through the plate glass window
From over Leamington Spa

Beside her the lonely crochet
Lay patiently and unstirred,
But the fingers that would have work'd it
Were dead as the spoken word.

And Nurse came in with the tea-things
Breast high 'mid the stands and chairs-
But Nurse was alone with her own little soul,
And the things were alone with theirs.

She bolted the big round window,
She let the blinds unroll,
She set a match to the mantle,
She covered the fire with coal.

And "Tea!" she said in a tiny voice
"Wake up! It's nearly five"
Oh! Chintzy, chintzy cheeriness,
Half dead and half alive.

Do you know that the stucco is peeling?
Do you know that the heart will stop?
From those yellow Italianate arches
Do you hear the plaster drop?

Nurse looked at the silent bedstead,
At the grey, decaying face,
As the calm of a Leamington ev'ning
Drifted into the place.

She moved the table of bottles
Away from the bed to the wall;
And tiptoeing gently over the stairs
Turned down the gas in the hall.


Noooo not mine, Sir John Betjeman Poet Laureate

[milo]

[quote='milo' pid='159175' dateline='1396189121']
[quote='Carousal' pid='159173' dateline='1396188666']


And you’re content to remain in your little ivory tower writing stuff that 95% (I’m being generous) don’t give a toss about.

I will never prostitute my muse for mere public recognition. God, how many times have I heard that? Offer them the next Potter script to write and they would tear your arm off.

You believe that j. K. Rowling is actually a wizard??!!)


No I believe she is a millionairess

---

Think how boring she would be if she restricted herself to writing about her personal experiences. Thus

I lie all the time in poems. I am really a middle-aged lorry driver from Ilford, and my only vice is the burning need to eviscerate puppies.

isn't turning poetry into an academic exercise as you claim but emulating successful writers.

[Truerenigma]

This boring complaint comes up time and again. Most people don't like poetry, and we're to blame because we're too smart.

I don't know my ass from a whole in the ground, but because I am capable of understanding metaphor, and know what an iamb is, I'm suddenly somehow a pretentious elitist.

People like what they like, and the simple truth is that other forms of media are easier to market.

You can't argue that more people admire paintings than watch movies or television. Is that because painters aren't painting things that viewers like to look at?

I'm not one to push poetry on the masses--to each his own, I say--but if there really is a trick to making everyone like or want to buy my poems, I'd sure like to hear it!

[NobodyNothing]

First off, poetry is not dead. One of the biggest mass cultural phenomenons of the last 35-40 years is rap/hip-hop, which is basically street poetry set to hard driving beats (though it's evolved in many different ways since).

Also, where I live, the performance poetry scene is alive and kicking. When I first stumbled upon poetry, I soon-after got enamored by and drawn into it. I would say that 80-90% of the poetry I wrote was specifically designed for how well it might play live, as in could it hook a live voting audience in 4 minutes and take down an opponent(s)?

I quickly learned what might work in such a setting, and what wouldn't. The proof was in the pudding: Did you win the audience and advance, or not? The audiences for all the prelims was about 100-150 people (my guess), and the regional finals were in front of an audience of about 3-4000 thousand (again my guess).

Anyway...point being there are different "scenes/settings" for the poetry experience other than The New Yorker or more obscure literary journals/publications or published books of poetry, some of which rise up to iconic status, as in claiming the Pulitzer Prize, National Book Award, or National Book Critics award, and the like.

Ah...whatever...

[milo]

This boring complaint comes up time and again. Most people don't like poetry, and we're to blame because we're too smart.

I don't know my ass from a whole in the ground, but because I am capable of understanding metaphor, and know what an iamb is, I'm suddenly somehow a pretentious elitist.

People like what they like, and the simple truth is that other forms of media are easier to market.

You can't argue that more people admire paintings than watch movies or television. Is that because painters aren't painting things that viewers like to look at?

I'm not one to push poetry on the masses--to each his own, I say--but if there really is a trick to making everyone like or want to buy my poems, I'd sure like to hear it!

It really does come up a lot. It isn't that people don't enjoy poetry, btw it is that there is no way to monetize poetry which keeps the promotion away. Coca-cola has no interest in poetry. Poems are short and easily copied.

Here is the most recent example of this tedious discussion:
http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/showthread.php?tid=12853

Please attempt not to repeat the whole thread verbatim.

[Truerenigma]

and the simple truth is that other forms of media are easier to market.

I thought I'd covered that point. My ipod is full of readings though, almost never by the author, and all for free. Muah ha ha

[milo]

and the simple truth is that other forms of media are easier to market.

I thought I'd covered that point. My ipod is full of readings though, almost never by the author, and all for free. Muah ha ha

You did but I thought it important to focus on the monetization. People don't realize it in music because it is still very big but by any metric, music is less than half as successful as it was jut 20 years ago. Movies too. The reason is because people are getting the milk for free. And poetry can't command the performance interest of music.

[Carousal]

This boring complaint comes up time and again. Most people don't like poetry, and we're to blame because we're too smart.

I don't know my ass from a whole in the ground, but because I am capable of understanding metaphor, and know what an iamb is, I'm suddenly somehow a pretentious elitist.

People like what they like, and the simple truth is that other forms of media are easier to market.

You can't argue that more people admire paintings than watch movies or television. Is that because painters aren't painting things that viewers like to look at?

I'm not one to push poetry on the masses--to each his own, I say--but if there really is a trick to making everyone like or want to buy my poems, I'd sure like to hear it!

What the heck are you talking about? No one here is saying that you are a pretentious elitist because you write poetry or even the type of poetry you write

. You can't argue that more people admire paintings than watch movies or television.

No one is making that argument.


I'm not one to push poetry on the masses

But presumable you post poetry on a site that is viewable on the World Wide Web where the masses can read it. You’re loosing me.

[Truerenigma]

This boring complaint comes up time and again. Most people don't like poetry, and we're to blame because we're too smart.

I don't know my ass from a whole in the ground, but because I am capable of understanding metaphor, and know what an iamb is, I'm suddenly somehow a pretentious elitist.

People like what they like, and the simple truth is that other forms of media are easier to market.

You can't argue that more people admire paintings than watch movies or television. Is that because painters aren't painting things that viewers like to look at?

I'm not one to push poetry on the masses--to each his own, I say--but if there really is a trick to making everyone like or want to buy my poems, I'd sure like to hear it!

What the heck are you talking about? No one here is saying that you are a pretentious elitist because you write poetry or even the type of poetry you write

. You can't argue that more people admire paintings than watch movies or television.

No one is making that argument.


I'm not one to push poetry on the masses

But presumable you post poetry on a site that is viewable on the World Wide Web where the masses can read it. You’re loosing me.

You are definitely lost. This is a workshop and discussion forum. I'm here to learn and improve, and help others do the same. What I mean is I have no political interests, nor do I care to join any movement grated toward expanding the readership of poetry, especially by changing the way others write it. You'll find that most others here won't be very interested in your little campaign either, so why don't you just move along? You are wasting your time.

And there is no ivory tower, you are just imagining it. especially not here, this is the pig pen, for goodness sake!