A Question of Kindness

[Todd]

Let me say up front, that I'm not sure whether this would be a better topic for the Pig's Arse (just for where this could go), but here goes:

There's an online blogger I read, Ferrett Steinmetz, he recently wrote an article called, "Choose Carefully Who You're Kind To"

It has nothing to do with poetry, but it applies directly to any group site where people come together for any interest. In this case, he's dealing with a Fetish site FetLife. He deals with an issue where a guy (male domm) joins the site and spams every woman in a 20 mile radius of himself, in an annoying way. What ends up happening is the male domms end up getting mocked relentlessly.

Ferrett related a post where someone came to this group's defense saying (in his paraphrase):

“Why aren’t we more compassionate to these guys? They’re stupid and ill-informed, yes, but instead of responding with mockery to drive them away, why don’t we as a community concentrate on educating them? Guys who look at the Kinky and Popular board will see nothing but parodies of them. I feel like all we’re accomplishing is creating this negative atmosphere for new male doms.”

This was Ferret's reply:

“This mockery accomplishes something more vital, in a way: creating a more positive space for women, both dominant and submissive, who are less likely to have to deal with this shit – and more likely to stay. And who would you rather privilege – newbie male doms who are acting reflexively like assholes, or all the women on FetLife?”

“Think carefully,” I concluded. “There’s some very encoded and subtle sexism built into your thought patterns here.”

Don’t get me wrong; I am all about the teachable moment. I think you’ve got to allow for them, and someone has to stand up and be nice and take someone’s hand to walk them through all the dumb mistakes. But every time you “open up” a community to make it more welcome to those expressing dumb and insulting behaviors, you alienate those who are insulted.

And you have to choose. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be compassionate. But if you create a place where people are very tolerant of the MicroDom’s mistakes, then more MicroDoms are likely to thrive there. Which means that the women get more dumb emails. Which means that the women are more to leave rather than being harassed.

I wonder what our views are when we take this idea and apply it to a poetry site.

Thoughts?

Here's the full article so you can see the context more fully if you want. I think what I posted, and how it relates to this site is what I'm interested in.
Original Article

[Leanne]

This is absolutely relevant. In trying to shield the feelings of newbies who act like ignorant, arrogant arses instead of taking the time to work out the site dynamic, read the rules and slowly feel their way, we run the risk of alienating older and more valuable members. This doesn't mean that older members have carte blanche when it comes to dealing with newbies, but it does mean that instead of being concerned about the butthurt of someone who's been here five seconds and probably does the same on every site they go to, we should really be protecting the interests of those members who've contributed immeasurably to building the site and making it into a place we enjoy coming to.

[tectak]

This is absolutely relevant. In trying to shield the feelings of newbies who act like ignorant, arrogant arses instead of taking the time to work out the site dynamic, read the rules and slowly feel their way, we run the risk of alienating older and more valuable members. This doesn't mean that older members have carte blanche when it comes to dealing with newbies, but it does mean that instead of being concerned about the butthurt of someone who's been here five seconds and probably does the same on every site they go to, we should really be protecting the interests of those members who've contributed immeasurably to building the site and making it into a place we enjoy coming to.

I need to think on this. I am 65.
Best,
Tom

[Leanne]

Well then, we might not have an older member...

[billy]

treat them as they treat us. if a newb wants to ass-shaft the site members and give nothing in return, ass-shaft them first, for those members with an attitude of i know it it and fuck you (the site) fuck them. for members who wish to improve, who don't post just to receive pretty kisses. be honest and non mocking. i hate those nasty bastards who don't actually want feedback but think they're that great that if they get it it will smell of roses.

treat tom like a mushroom....

[ellajam]

"Choose Carefully Who You're Kind To"

Ugghh, nope, no way, not the way I want to live.

I'm a firm believer that we make the world we want to live in. Avoiding purposely hurting people doesn't turn life into sunshine and rainbows, but in the moment it makes it a more pleasant place to be.

Kindness doesn't come from being nice, plenty is said in my head that doesn't exit my mouth, but it is a choice made because it makes me feel better and creates an atmosphere where I, in turn, am treated better.

It is hardest to be kind to someone I consider an idiot, but most satisfying, a daily challenge.

On the internet it seems to be accepted as fine fun to be nasty to a troll, and it may be a useful tactic. It is just something I don't want to be a part of. IRL I just ignore the jerks and although for many people there are different rules online, I'm more comfortable being my actual self. It works for me.

Focusing in on this site, I think the Newly Registered Forum is brilliant. It isolates the posters who don't want to bother to read and apply the clearly, abundantly posted rules and who don't want to read for an hour, which would make the site's format obvious. Anyone who wants to leave some thoughtful feedback before posting their own work doesn't even have to start there. I think it leaves the workshops pretty clean.

If members want to crucify the few who make it through into the workshops and maintain an attitude unsuited to the site, go at it if you want to, it's just not the taste I want in my own mouth.

It's true that in a way I'm letting others do the dirty work for me, but I do what I can in my own way.

[Leanne]

I am not a fan of crucifixion either. It makes people cross.

As those of us who've been here for a decent amount of time know, we're not opposed to change -- the only fundamental premise we have is that people give more than they take. We would all rather a place where we feel comfortable to air our own opinions and have them responded to in an adult fashion; where people are grown up enough to know that we are not our poems, nor are we only critics; where women are treated as equals and not objects to be hit on or cossetted; and where knowledge is shared freely, not rammed down people's throats or ridiculed as snobbery.

[Truerenigma]

I am not a fan of crucifixion either. It makes people cross.

As those of us who've been here for a decent amount of time know, we're not opposed to change -- the only fundamental premise we have is that people give more than they take. We would all rather a place where we feel comfortable to air our own opinions and have them responded to in an adult fashion; where people are grown up enough to know that we are not our poems, nor are we only critics; where women are treated as equals and not objects to be hit on or cossetted; and where knowledge is shared freely, not rammed down people's throats or ridiculed as snobbery.

I agree, but of course it's not a perfect world. And of course some people who are not accustomed to criticism are going to (at first) think "it's mean...to criticize other people's poems", or even go so far as to say criticize "the thing which I've worked so hard on, and put my heart and soul into" or "I spent hours and hours on this"; but they just don't realize that some people have put overnighters, years, unfathomable amounts of time into this enterprise; and telling that to someone who has been working on the same poem for the past three years and can't sleep until the etymology every verb and noun on the page has its roots in the same archaic language is ...well...trite. It's what you do after the initial pain has worn off (and it is a necessary pain), and where you direct the energy that it wells up in your poor little misunderstood heart-- are you going to smash your computer, or hit the books?--that counts. And crit is what we come here for, right?

There are plenty of sites where all of the comments are limited to such constructions as...

"I like...so much"
and
"I like...not as much"

but that just doesn't work not me.

On most of the other learning-center-constructive-criticism-workshops trolls, flamers, and spammers are quietly dismissed; here we have a little fun (often times even educational fun), so what's the big deal? For those newcomers who are feeling bad for the troll—just wait till they are disrupting your threads, and muddling your learning process; you'll be quite relieved when the regulars here rally behind you to run them to the Arse, and then point you back in the right direction by debating the finer points of B.S., and poking holes into their piles of feces.

[ellajam]

On most of the other learning-center-constructive-criticism-workshops trolls, flamers, and spammers are quietly dismissed; here we have a little fun (often times even educational fun), so what's the big deal? For those newcomers who are feeling bad for the troll—just wait till they are disrupting your threads, and muddling your learning process; you'll be quite relieved when the regulars here rally behind you to run them to the Arse, and then point you back in the right direction by debating the finer points of B.S., and poking holes into their piles of feces.

As a newbie here I've mostly seen jerks mucking up their own threads and the occasional "Poems don't need editing" posts on other people's thread.

I really value the critiques given my poems, and am sure I'd be pretty pissed if someone interrupted them with nonsense. Yep, I'd come crying for help.

[Nihil Loc]

I hopped over from Philosophy Forums. Those guys are as strict in work-shopping the truth or falsity of language claims as you committed folk are to improving poems. Trolls get exiled to an unmoderated region.

Some bans seemed unnecessary but I don't ever track down all the evidence for probable cause. I don't always see the forest for the trees (where the troll lives).

Experience and learning varies but the more you have the more likely you'll be enjoyed, responded to on the account of having something worth saying. It's like most forums I guess.

And crit is what we come here for, right?

How about the pleasures of communication, poetry as dialogue and self expression? Surely there are forum categories for more severe levels of applied critique and work-shopping. I'll be sure to stay out of those places unless I'm willing to see my sand castles and ego knocked down.

You folks might take an interest in: Philosophy and Poetry

[Truerenigma]

I hopped over from Philosophy Forums. Those guys are as strict in work-shopping the truth or falsity of language claims as you committed folk are to improving poems. Trolls get exiled to an unmoderated region.

Some bans seemed unnecessary but I don't ever track down all the evidence for probable cause. I don't always see the forest for the trees (where the troll lives).

Experience and learning varies but the more you have the more likely you'll be enjoyed, responded to on the account of having something worth saying. It's like most forums I guess.

And crit is what we come here for, right?

How about the pleasures of communication, poetry as dialogue and self expression? Surely there are forum categories for more severe levels of applied critique and work-shopping. I'll be sure to stay out of those places unless I'm willing to see my sand castles and ego knocked down.

You folks might take an interest in: Philosophy and Poetry

I'm not really concerned with self-expression, or philosophy. What I am concerned with is writing poetry that can be read, understood, and appreciated by a reader who is interested in and knowledgeable of poetry -- by working to attain to a considerably high reader centered standard--and helping others do the same.

[billy]

I hopped over from Philosophy Forums. Those guys are as strict in work-shopping the truth or falsity of language claims as you committed folk are to improving poems. Trolls get exiled to an unmoderated region.

Some bans seemed unnecessary but I don't ever track down all the evidence for probable cause. I don't always see the forest for the trees (where the troll lives).

Experience and learning varies but the more you have the more likely you'll be enjoyed, responded to on the account of having something worth saying. It's like most forums I guess.

And crit is what we come here for, right?

How about the pleasures of communication, poetry as dialogue and self expression? Surely there are forum categories for more severe levels of applied critique and work-shopping. I'll be sure to stay out of those places unless I'm willing to see my sand castles and ego knocked down.

yep we have forums where critique takes a back seat. but if you post in them we still expect you to respond elsewhere, at least in the novice feedback forum. i can't remember the last time someone got banned life is so unfair at times.