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I agree entirely regarding TV, movies, games, etc. It seems more and more kids, from an early age, aren't introduced to poetry, not even in nursery rhyme form. I suspect TV began putting paid to the notion of bedside stories and children's poetry.
But I don't consider an understandable poem to be boring. Do you find Mary Oliver's works boring? Or those of Billy Collins? Or Seamus Heaney? Or Rumi? Or Robert Frost? Their poems work on different levels - the effects and nuances unfold the more often one reads them. But a first-time reader of Frost's 'Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening', for example, would likely at first understand the basic story (the guy's in a horse-drawn carriage, on someone's private property, it's cold, dark, he's tired, and still has a long way to go before he gets home), and possibly relate to it, even be charmed by its inherent rhythm. Digging deeper, he/she would go into the symbolic possibilities in the poem, and so on.
The kind of poems I refer to as being unintelligible are ones that are convoluted, pretentious, and basically little more than purple prose - i.e. bad poetry. Or - not to put too fine a point on it - wankery. The writer might think he knows what he wants to say, but hasn't learned how to communicate it effectively.
BTW, I realise that - like lyric genres - different forms of poetry call for different ways to express the thought, and can range from purely abstract to ultra simple. 
Donna
Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.
What do you think would be the benefit of young people being introduced to poetry and coming to appreciate it as much as they do video games?
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(01-20-2014, 12:51 AM)DonMar Wrote: I agree entirely regarding TV, movies, games, etc. It seems more and more kids, from an early age, aren't introduced to poetry, not even in nursery rhyme form. I suspect TV began putting paid to the notion of bedside stories and children's poetry.
But I don't consider an understandable poem to be boring. Do you find Mary Oliver's works boring? Or those of Billy Collins? Or Seamus Heaney? Or Robert Frost? Their poems work on different levels - the effects and nuances unfold the more often one reads them. But a first-time reader of Frost's 'Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening' would at first recognise the basic story (the guy's in a horse-drawn carriage, on someone's private property, it's cold, dark, he's tired, and still has a long way to go before he gets home), and possibly relate to it, even be carried away by its inherent rhythm. Digging deeper, he/she would go into the symbolic possibilities in the poem, and so on.
The kind of poems I refer to as being unintelligible are ones that are convoluted, pretentious, and basically little more than purple prose - i.e. bad poetry. Or - not to put too fine a point on it - wankery. The writer might think he knows what he wants to say, but hasn't learned how to communicate it effectively.
Donna
What he means is a large number of people find all poetry boring and don't give a shit how simple or complex it is if it ain't got button to push or moving pictures to look at. Hell, many people complain about movies that come with words on the screen, which makes them have to read, an inexcusable offense. What do you think they are looking for, more schooling?
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Yes, I know what he means.  But I still wonder what he (sorry this is behind your back, rowens ) - or anyone - thinks of works by the poets I mentioned.
Are they considered 'boring'?
My question first.
Donna
Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.
Some of them are boring. Though in certain moods they are interesting. It depends. All of the poets you mentioned have some poems I've liked, but I can't think of any right now. I rarely read those particular poets anymore. I rarely read any poetry lately, except what's posted on this site. Many people are only interested in poetry when they're writing poems. The Newly Registered section here gives you a small window into poetry in the lives of the masses.
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(01-18-2014, 05:57 AM)Leanne Wrote: Just before Christmas I had an interesting conversation with a couple of friends we rarely see. He's some kind of high ranking sales executive (I don't know what he sells, exactly, but he's awesome at bullshitting) and she's a PR rep for a whisky company -- so they're both quite good at making money. They were asking me about my writing -- why do I not market it more, why do I not produce more, why am I not more aggressively selling myself? She posed this question: If you were offered an advance of $100,000, would you write a book of 100 poems?
She was quite serious, and quite prepared to take on marketing. So, what did I answer, and why?
I would write 100 poems for $1000. While the enormous amount of $100,000 sets off my distrust meter I would still do it. I could even be persuaded to slip no-so-subtle references to coke or chevrolet in there.
(01-20-2014, 01:05 AM)DonMar Wrote: Yes, I know what he means. But I still wonder what he (sorry this is behind your back, rowens ) - or anyone - thinks of works by the poets I mentioned.
Are they considered 'boring'?
My question first.
Donna
I would think that most people interested in poetry would find at least something of interest in your list-of-the-most-popular-poets of the previous century. Hence, their immense success an popularity.
(01-19-2014, 11:47 PM)DonMar Wrote: Perhaps it's because I've mainly been writing lyrics over a number of genres for the past several years, but I don't feel that making a poem intelligible to a reader/listener is by definition 'dumbing down'. (With the exception of most pop music, of course. )
Donna
I think the original assertion was that focusing on the craftsmanship of poetry doesn't appeal to the masses. Making it intelligible is certainly not dumbing it down and I don't think anyone would make that claim.
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If someone offered me $100,000 advance to write 100 poems I would at least have to inquire about the interest rate on such a stately loan, and whether or not I'm going to lose the house if I don't pay up in time.
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(01-20-2014, 01:37 AM)trueenigma Wrote: If someone offered me $100,000 advance to write 100 poems I would at least have to inquire about the interest rate on such a stately loan, and whether or not I'm going to lose the house if I don't pay up in time.
Well, there was no quality dimension in the discussion. I could bang out 100 triolets in a week and then take a well-deserved $100,000 vacation somewhere exotic. (Actually, I would have to pay taxes so I would make it a $67,500 vacation. Probably the canary isles)
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Milo, unfortunately, in my experience a lot of writers do consider that making a lyric or poem intelligible is tantamount to dumbing it down. I've had a couple recently who even used that expression when I - and several other reviewers - suggested that the message they were hoping to convey was incomprehensible.
You're right about a lot of people - including those who write poetry or lyrics - not being interested in learning the skills, mastering the craft, and applying the tools. A pity, because then everyone misses out - the writer and the potential reader/listener who might have been moved by the piece of writing.
Regarding the hypothetical payment question: Yep, I absolutely would write x number of poems/lyrics for a substantial - even an insubstantial - amount of money.
Interesting thread, this.
Donna
(01-20-2014, 01:22 AM)milo Wrote: I think the original assertion was that focusing on the craftsmanship of poetry doesn't appeal to the masses. Making it intelligible is certainly not dumbing it down and I don't think anyone would make that claim.
Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.
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(01-20-2014, 01:41 AM)milo Wrote: (01-20-2014, 01:37 AM)trueenigma Wrote: If someone offered me $100,000 advance to write 100 poems I would at least have to inquire about the interest rate on such a stately loan, and whether or not I'm going to lose the house if I don't pay up in time.
Well, there was no quality dimension in the discussion. I could bang out 100 triolets in a week and then take a well-deserved $100,000 vacation somewhere exotic. (Actually, I would have to pay taxes so I would make it a $67,500 vacation. Probably the canary isles)
Better yet just send them whatever you happen to have lying around the worship, why waste a week of perfectly good vacation time?
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I understand and agree with the extremes. I'm not sure how it applies to a question of what people should or somehow would do. If someone thinks that they can articulate what they are thinking, as an absolute, it is a form of insanity. Communication is essentially people playing charades. So, how articulate does someone need to be regarding some thought in order for it to be inarticulate or articulate? At what point does it sacrifice something poetic to attempt to be clearer with the expectation that it will be easier for people to understand? At what point is it premature to express yourself about anything, given that that you might be able to be more articulate?
So, I think people should be made to work at a job opening clamshell packaging, for presenting poetry that they don't feel is finished.
If a poem isn't finished, finish it. If you don't know how to finish it, you're not a poet. It happens.
You can write a poem full of poetic things and be articulate. Poems work on different levels of understanding. If a poem is good enough as it is before appearing articulate to the reader, the reader might decide to study the poem deeper, and eventually he might find himself understanding it at least on some level. If it's a good enough poem, a person that likes poetry and likes that poem will enjoy struggling with it, and getting as much as he can out of it.
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There are no poets, there is only poetry.
A poet is a poet when he's writing poetry. Some might say he has to be writing good poetry.
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i find classicism pretty frustrating, e.g. the cantos is insane. i'm torn by it.
What do you mean by the cantos? Ezra Pound's, or cantos in general?
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yes i mean that... sorry for being unclear.
You weren't unclear, but there are all kinds of people talking about all kinds of things.
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(01-20-2014, 06:04 AM)clemonz Wrote: yes i mean that... sorry for being unclear.
By that you mean...what 
The Cantos doesn't seem like something that would make a good introduction to poetry. Though that's only a superficial comment. Maybe the Cantos is what turns someone on. Pound used Classical ideas and poetry, translating them into Modern poetry or garbage or whatever he wanted to do at the time.
That's the evolution of these discussions.
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