dozens of bodies dumped in mine

[billy]

why do you think heroin would be dearer from da gangsta if the gov started selling it. almost all substance that can be bought legally can be bought illegally cheaper.

everything from cheap booze to cheap cigarettes and even cheap drugs.
if the gove sell anything they'll tax it or will do so after a while.

Billy the cost for treatment in a public methadone facility this year {April 2010} is $5,200 a year for drugs and counseling seven days a week.
I'd wager that is much less the the cost of a funeral or incarceration my dear.

is that for an hour a day ? i'd wager that cost of one councillor and the dugs he prescribes runs into hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.
who pays the rent for the councilors to work from? i worked a rehab center staffed by eleven councilors. it serviced about 60 square miles. it was closed due to lack of funding. the annual bill for travel expenses was something like 25 thousand pounds. that didn't include paying for two vehicles for the main guys. 6 of us were volunteers. but four were paid medical staff. a doctor, two nurse a Psychiatrist and maintainence man (us volunteers just got expenses and a food allowance, the others got fully paid wages.) prescriptions for methadone didn't even compare to some of the alternative treatments such as acupuncture (we eventually were taught how to do it t save cost) cold turkey. (which need 24/7 surveillance with at least two people in attendance in case the person tried to harm themselves) i'll check up some facts and figures for you later.

and that doesn't take into account the drain on hospital resources and the huge cost of that, as well as the loss of treatment to others who use a national health system.

and btw, it isn't humane to feed an almost unfixable habit such as heroin addiction. unless of course you merely want to control them
------------------------------------------
not sure what 70 million krona is in dollars but i'm sure it's a tad more the 5 or 6 thousand.
Denmark’s new state-financed heroin clinics have just enough political backing and plenty of funding, but they can’t find enough heroin. Five city councils are set to be the first districts in Denmark where heroin addicts can receive free treatment and help kicking their habit.

But at least one clinic, in the town of Odense, hasn’t opened yet because it is having difficulty scoring enough heroin to handle the needs of its patients, according to the Fyens Stiftstidende newspaper.

More than a year ago, the Danish parliament allocated 70 million kroner to set up heroin clinics in Copenhagen, Odense, Arhus, Esbjerg, and Glostrup. Copenhagen got the lion’s share of the funding, pocketing nearly half of the total amount. But the National Board of Health is having a hard time finding a pharmaceutical company that is able to supply enough heroin, package it, and deliver it at a reasonable price.

The newspaper Fyens Stiftstidende says that the government has therefore embarked on a fact-finding mission abroad (location unstated) where it hopes to learn more about the practical side of its project, such as storing and distributing heroin.

Another obstacle facing Odense’s heroin clinic, which is scheduled to open on 1 January, is that locals don’t want the clinic opened in their backyard. The present drug treatment centre in the city reports it is running into difficulties finding a clinic location for the users and the staff due to local bias against junkies. source:

------------------------------------------------
this one looks good till you get to the end, first off its only dealing with 20 users lmao and then the realization dawns on what they say (i underlined it )


A scheme giving free heroin to Danish addicts has resulted in increased health and a reduction in crime and prostitution.

Initial reports have indicated that a trial issuing Copenhagen’s heroin addicts with free doses of the drug has been successful, with users committing less crime and demonstrating an improvement in their overall quality of life.

Twenty drug users have taken part in the programme since its launch in March, with two clinics providing morning and afternoon heroin doses. One of the participating centres, the Valmue Clinic, said addicts have shown a noticeable improvement in both their physical and psychological condition.

“They don’t have to wake up in the morning with how to get money as the first thing they think about. That gives them a surplus that means that we can talk to them about their housing situation, how we can help them apply for a disability pension if they need that, or perhaps about the child they have lost contact with,” said Valmue Clinic Head Torben Ballegaard. He added that addicts had committed fewer crimes, discontinued prostitution and put on weight during the study.

In addition to daily breakfast and a hot meal, the addicts had regular contact with nursing staff, enabling the faster discovery and treatment of illnesses, reports Politiken. “They get the courage to attend to things that they have kept to themselves – for example to say that they have shared a needle with another addict and would like to be tested,” said Vivian Kjaer, Senior Nurse with the KABS institution.

Ballegaard, however, acknowledged that while the addicts may have developed certain life skills, their chances of giving up the drug remained slim. “I can’t see any of them being able to get off heroin, but I can see some being able to live a sensible life with heroin,” he said.

source:

they also used that big word SOME in the last line.
there is no cure for heroin addict only abstinence

[mrmod]

Heroin is nasty.

I for one do not believe in its' legalization but I would rather it were decriminalized. That implies that no criminal charges would be applied when a user is caught (less time in prison) and help for those who have been caught.

I believe also that Cold Turkey may not be nice but it might be the best chance an addict has.

If it was legalized would run into the hands of teens quicker than you say "legalize it" and that is not a good position at all. It only takes one or two hits to get addicted and we all know how much peer pressure plays a part so it would destroy a large percentage, I believe.

Drug dealers can be ruthless and while legalization might remove that problem, it would create an array of whole new ones.

JMO.

[billy]

i think decriminalization is the better route to go but even then
i think the risk would be great.
ho about executing heroin dealers, is that going to far, i actually like the idea

[srijantje]

first off all,thanks for the input C.B.bit of a fresh angle.
to my knowledge,heroin is extremely cheap to produce once you lay your hands on the opium which we all know where to get.clean, uncut heroin,is not that bad for your health.most problems start if you don't have access to it,robbery,prostitution,health problems etc.

[billy]

first off all,thanks for the input C.B.bit of a fresh angle.
to my knowledge,heroin is extremely cheap to produce once you lay your hands on the opium which we all know where to get.clean, uncut heroin,is not that bad for your health.most problems start if you don't have access to it,robbery,prostitution,health problems etc.

i agree with SJ CB, great to have a fresh point of view.

most junkies would die from a fix of pure heroin. they're only used to doctored up shit. but yes it's cheap to source.thing is, gangs will be getting most of whats imported. and again for the books. any heroin is extremely bad for you. any substance that can make you addicted to hit have two or three intravenous injections will never be good for anybody. (it's a misconception) how much do you think the clinics will give away free? all they'll do is create a super junky. someone who can get it free will inject it more frequently and in doing so require larger amounts to inject. this is fact. the high tolerance of the drug has been clinically and medically proven.

[cigarbabe]

Heroin is nasty.

I for one do not believe in its' legalization but I would rather it were decriminalized. That implies that no criminal charges would be applied when a user is caught (no time in prison) and help for those who have been caught. I fixed that for you S.D.

I believe also that Cold Turkey may not be nice but it might be the best chance an addict has.

If it was legalized would run into the hands of teens quicker than you say "legalize it" and that is not a good position at all. It only takes one or two hits to get addicted and we all know how much peer pressure plays a part so it would destroy a large percentage, I believe.

First lets separate facts from myth,it does not take
one or two "hits" S.D. to become addicted.
That happens over many months usually at least it did for me and I had no idea that I had a problem with it because I didn't even use everyday as
I had heard you had to do.
I only sniffed it to start for years before getting a "habit".
There really wasn't any peer pressure for me I was just naive, bored and lets not forget STUPID!

Listen I'm not advocating selling drugs to teens or children only adults number one.
#2 Cold Turkey does not work for anybody!
#3 You can't throw up problems resulting from a fix to one problem and say it's no good
because it will get into kids hands?!!
That would be a problem with the idiots who would be stupid enough
to give anything to a child/teen like the guys who'll buy beer/cigs for them.
Check out the stats for "cold turkey" withdrawal and you'll find most of them as soon as they hit the streets get a fix right off the bat. You can't detox someone successfully in a week, ten days or a month
the treatment that works successfully is Methadone.
Period.
Billy the price I stated was for one years time, seven days a week to treat one addict is $5,200 per year.
These are not in-patient residential treatment centers as I'm assuming you're talking about.
Those costs would be substantially higher.
C.B.

Drug dealers can be ruthless and while legalization might remove that problem, it would create an array of whole new ones.

JMO.

i think decriminalization is the better route to go but even then
i think the risk would be great.
ho about executing heroin dealers, is that going to far, i actually like the idea

Yes Billy it would!
Thank you for your kind words srijante & Billy I really do appreciate it.

---

first off all,thanks for the input C.B.bit of a fresh angle.
to my knowledge,heroin is extremely cheap to produce once you lay your hands on the opium which we all know where to get.clean, uncut heroin,is not that bad for your health.most problems start if you don't have access to it,robbery,prostitution,health problems etc.

I agree pure heroin will kill you as we've seen firsthand here in the US.
The dope was only 40% and killed many people.
When I was using it was probably 19% if you were lucky.
Also the crap they cut it with is what causes death and some health issues too.
It may be cheap to source but by the time it gets here {the US}
the quality and quantity goes down considerably!

first off all,thanks for the input C.B.bit of a fresh angle.
to my knowledge,heroin is extremely cheap to produce once you lay your hands on the opium which we all know where to get.clean, uncut heroin,is not that bad for your health.most problems start if you don't have access to it,robbery,prostitution,health problems etc.

i agree with SJ CB, great to have a fresh point of view.

most junkies would die from a fix of pure heroin. they're only used to doctored up shit. but yes it's cheap to source.thing is, gangs will be getting most of whats imported. and again for the books. any heroin is extremely bad for you. any substance that can make you addicted to hit have two or three intravenous injections will never be good for anybody. (it's a misconception) how much do you think the clinics will give away free? all they'll do is create a super junky. someone who can get it free will inject it more frequently and in doing so require larger amounts to inject. this is fact. the high tolerance of the drug has been clinically and medically proven.

Again thanks for the kind words guys!
C.B.

[billy]

addicts are created after two or three fixes.
this is not a myth. after a first fix. most can say no to a secon fix. after a second fix that number drops dramatically. after a third and fourth fix it's almost impossible.

if those fixes are weeks apart or even moths aprt them the heroin has already left the system and the tolerance is no where near the same.

the thing is most (virtually all) people who go out, have a fix, don't just have a fix once a moth etc. most have their first fix on friday, 2nd on sat and third on sunday. after that they actively seek out a fix.

cold turkey: the quickest way to get the drug out of the system, it's also only the first stage in getting the drug out of the system and keeping it out. certain drugs can be given to alleviate the cramps and to a smaller extent the sweats. even then the withdrawal symptoms can still be horrendous. methadone etc just creates other related problems. most junkies take their prescription methadone to tide them over till they get a real fix.

back to cold turkey. the normal practice is doing the cold turkey. then like alcoholics they have a guardian angel. in the case of an addict a much closer one whose usually a family member who can be with them virtually 24/7 for 6 months. after that it's daily or bi daily blood tests for a year most fall by the way side.

most people who sniff or smoke heroin waste most of it. only a small amount reaches the brain.

IT IS NOT THE SAME AS INJECTING.
snorting heroin takes about 10 to 15 mins to have a noticeable effect.
injecting take 7 to 8 seconds. it has a rush where the feeling hits you like a wave. if you wish i can look up a source.

Heroin Addiction

Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Symptoms of withdrawal include restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, cold flashes with goose bumps, and leg movements.

Major withdrawal symptoms peak between 24 and 48 hours after the last dose of heroin and subside after about a week. Heroin withdrawal is never fatal to otherwise healthy adults, but the psychological effects can be so bad that the user might kill themself, rather than going through withdrawl.

To avoid physical addiction heroin should be used once every four days, maximum. If you take it on friday, wait till tuesday or later before doing it again. If you can limit your use to once every four days, physical addiction and tolerance problems are minimized. You will not require larger doses to produce the same results.

i'll put up the source if required.

the thing is most junkies didn't start by taking it every four days or once a week. they usually took five or six hits over two days. (injections) while under the influence of booze and other drugs such as coke

[cigarbabe]

addicts are created after two or three fixes.
this is not a myth. after a first fix. most can say no to a secon fix. after a second fix that number drops dramatically. after a third and fourth fix it's almost impossible.

Billy I can't speak for most addicts.
I can only speak for myself and I don't know anyone who had an
addiction for heroin after using it a couple ie two or three times,not one!

if those fixes are weeks apart or even moths aprt them the heroin has already left the system and the tolerance is no where near the same.

It isn't about tolerance at first it is about wanting to use a particular substance whatever the drug is.

the thing is most (virtually all) people who go out, have a fix, don't just have a fix once a moth etc. most have their first fix on friday, 2nd on sat and third on sunday. after that they actively seek out a fix.
I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.

cold turkey: the quickest way to get the drug out of the system, it's also only the first stage in getting the drug out of the system and keeping it out. certain drugs can be given to alleviate the cramps and to a smaller extent the sweats. even then the withdrawal symptoms can still be horrendous. methadone etc just creates other related problems. most junkies take their prescription methadone to tide them over till they get a real fix.

Billy have you ever been addicted to heroin?
No?
Then why do you keep trying to tell me what
is true when I've actually been through several methods of Methadone treatment and detox's?
I never took methadone as a way to hold me over until I could get more dope,never! Maybe those things happened or the clients told you these stories where you worked but I can assure you that is not the norm here in the states.

back to cold turkey. the normal practice is doing the cold turkey. then like alcoholics they have a guardian angel. in the case of an addict a much closer one whose usually a family member who can be with them virtually 24/7 for 6 months. after that it's daily or bi daily blood tests for a year most fall by the way side.

most people who sniff or smoke heroin waste most of it. only a small amount reaches the brain.

IT IS NOT THE SAME AS INJECTING.
snorting heroin takes about 10 to 15 mins to have a noticeable effect.
injecting take 7 to 8 seconds. it has a rush where the feeling hits you like a wave. if you wish i can look up a source.

I don't need a source since I've been there,done that but thank you anyway.
I only said I started out by sniffing and then I progressed to shooting it.
Cold turkey does not work as a method of keeping people off of drugs
and you should know that as a former counselor.

Heroin Addiction

Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Symptoms of withdrawal include restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, cold flashes with goose bumps, and leg movements.

Major withdrawal symptoms peak between 24 and 48 hours after the last dose of heroin and subside after about a week. Heroin withdrawal is never fatal to otherwise healthy adults, but the psychological effects can be so bad that the user might kill themself, rather than going through withdrawl.

To avoid physical addiction heroin should be used once every four days, maximum. If you take it on friday, wait till tuesday or later before doing it again. If you can limit your use to once every four days, physical addiction and tolerance problems are minimized. You will not require larger doses to produce the same results.

i'll put up the source if required.

the thing is most junkies didn't start by taking it every four days or once a week. they usually took five or six hits over two days. (injections) while under the influence of booze and other drugs such as coke

I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting to do such a thing.
That is unheard of!
Ask me or any former addict darling.
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots
over a two day period has been shooting dope for quite a while.
I would have been dead even with the 1% dope I shot back then
had I taken it that often.
C.B.

[billy]

tolerance

lets start with that first. ;

Is Heroin Addicting?
Tolerance to heroin develops with regular use. This means it will take more heroin to produce the same level of intensity to the user. This results in physical addiction to the drug developing over time.

What is Heroin Withdrawal Like?
When the drug is discontinued, the user will experience physical withdrawal. The withdrawal can begin within a few hours since it was last administered. Withdrawal symptoms include:

* Restlessness
* Insomnia
* Diarrhea
* Vomiting
* Cold flashes with goose bumps
* Kicking movements
* Muscle and bone pain

i've seen this phenom with my own eyes in users of less than 4 months. please note the underlined part. it's takes a bit of time to become a junky but not a long time. even taking it once will lead to a feeling of depression and more afterwards. a long term addiction does not constitute years. i the case of a highly addictive drug like heroin it can be months depending on the regularity taken.
--------------------------------------------------------
i take it by this statement;

Billy I can't speak for most addicts.
I can only speak for myself and I don't know anyone who had an
addiction for heroin after using it a couple ie two or three times,not one!
you don't know a single addict? i don't know more than a handfull of users who stopped after three close together hits.

I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.

----------------------------------

usage; you say;
I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting to do such a thing.
That is unheard of!
Ask me or any former addict darling.Wink
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots
over a two day period has been shooting dope for quite a while.
I would have been dead even with the 1% dope I shot back then
had I taken it that often.
C.B.

Total Use Vs. Average Use

The amount given by the formula above is the total amount used per day. Heroin has a halflife of three hours (caveat).This means that if you use heroin once per day, there will be less than one-half of one percent (0.5%) left in your body each time you use. This is why most addicts find it necessary to use a few times per day. After six hours, the drug is at 25% of its maximum--this is about the time when addicts begin to experience some discomfort from withdrawal.

When switching from heroin to codeine, there is no need to compare how long the drugs stay in your body; this is because codeine has the same halflife. For a drug like methadone, this effect is large. Methadone stays in the body eight (or more) times as long as heroin. As a result, you will need only 1/8 as much methadone as heroin to keep from experiencing withdrawal symptoms.
Opioid Strength

Opioids vary in terms of their strength. Heroin is one of the stronger ones. Taken IV, it is 60 times as strong as codeine taken orally. It is even 6 times as strong as methadone (impressively, however, methadone is only 30% weaker than heroin when both are taken orally). The differing strengths of the opioids must also be taken into account when matching doses.
------------------------------------------------------
you said;
the thing is most (virtually all) people who go out, have a fix, don't just have a fix once a moth etc. most have their first fix on friday, 2nd on sat and third on sunday. after that they actively seek out a fix.
I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.

heres the underlined section again ;

Total Use Vs. Average Use

The amount given by the formula above is the total amount used per day. Heroin has a halflife of three hours (caveat).This means that if you use heroin once per day, there will be less than one-half of one percent (0.5%) left in your body each time you use. This is why most addicts find it necessary to use a few times per day. After six hours, the drug is at 25% of its maximum--this is about the time when addicts begin to experience some discomfort from withdrawal.

---------------------------------------------------

you say:

Billy have you ever been addicted to heroin?
No?
Then why do you keep trying to tell me what
is true when I've actually been through several methods of Methadone treatment and detox's?
I never took methadone as a way to hold me over until I could get more dope,never! Maybe those things happened or the clients told you these stories where you worked but I can assure you that is not the norm here in the states.

yu don't actually know what i've been through CB nor i what you've been through.

you said;

It isn't about tolerance at first it is about wanting to use a particular substance whatever the drug is.

it's more or less what i said with;
[b]if those fixes are weeks apart or even moths aprt them the heroin has already left the system and the tolerance is no where near the same. and the thing is most junkies didn't start by taking it every four days or once a week. they usually took five or six hits over two days. (injections) while under the influence of booze and other drugs such as coke (meaning peer pressure or adventure)

you said;
I don't need a source since I've been there,done that but thank you anyway.
I only said I started out by sniffing and then I progressed to shooting it.
Cold turkey does not work as a method of keeping people off of drugs
and you should know that as a former counselor.

which is pretty much what i said with;

cold turkey: the quickest way to get the drug out of the system, it's also only the first stage in getting the drug out of the system and keeping it out. certain drugs can be given to alleviate the cramps and to a smaller extent the sweats. even then the withdrawal symptoms can still be horrendous. methadone etc just creates other related problems. most junkies take their prescription methadone to tide them over till they get a real fix.
note the underlined part that doesn't say cold turkey keeps people of drugs. in truth it's practiced because giving a substitute drug still keeps drugs in the system., it done so the person remembers how bad a feeling the withdrawal is (it's used as a reinforcement for the latter part of any treatment, it means if you know what being burnt is, you think twice before burning yourself)
i also said;
then like alcoholics they have a guardian angel. in the case of an addict a much closer one whose usually a family member who can be with them virtually 24/7 for 6 months. after that it's daily or bi daily blood tests for a year most fall by the way side.

note the underlined part. i never ever said it cures or keeps them off drugs, in fact i said there is no cure

i'll give a source anyway, as to why detox is the first stage of any sensible treatment.

Detoxification

The primary objective of detoxification is to relieve withdrawal symptoms while patients adjust to a drug-free state. Not in itself a treatment for addiction, detoxification is a useful step only when it leads into long-term treatment that is either drug-free (residential or outpatient) or uses medications as part of the treatment. The best documented drug-free treatments are the therapeutic community residential programs lasting at least 3 to 6 months. source;

------------------------------------------------------

again you said;
I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting to do such a thing.
That is unheard of!
Ask me or any former addict darling.Wink
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots
over a two day period has been shooting dope for quite a while.
I would have been dead even with the 1% dope I shot back then
had I taken it that often.
C.B.

heroin is seldom under 9 or 10 %
but none the less here's another source about the occurence of a decent junky injecting I.V. style.;
How is heroin used?

Heroin is usually injected, sniffed/snorted, or smoked. Typically, a heroin abuser may inject up to four times a day. Intravenous injection provides the greatest intensity and most rapid onset of euphoria (7 to 8 seconds), while intramuscular injection produces a relatively slow onset of euphoria (5 to 8 minutes). When heroin is sniffed or smoked, peak effects are usually felt within 10 to 15 minutes. Although smoking and sniffing heroin do not produce a "rush" as quickly or as intensely as intravenous injection, NIDA researchers have confirmed that all three forms of heroin administration are addictive. source;

---------------------------------------------------

a good user (junky) will have collapsed all his/her do-able veins withing 6 months or less. they'll be injecting into their penis or piss flaps even their own eye balls, after 8 months or even less. i've had more friends die from o.d,-ing on it than i care to mention. i've lifted a dead friend, a 45 pound girl (not kilos) into a taxi to take her to hospital. she'd been a junky all her adult life but had been in prison for two year prior to the six months of freedom she had.

as for the purity of heroin, white, black or brown. i can wash it up and tell you it's strength to the nearest 100th of gram in less than 3 minutes. i can do the same with coke.

[cigarbabe]

tolerance

lets start with that first. ;

Is Heroin Addicting?
Tolerance to heroin develops with regular use. This means it will take more heroin to produce the same level of intensity to the user. This results in physical addiction to the drug developing over time.

[b]I am not disagreeing with this statement.

What is Heroin Withdrawal Like?
When the drug is discontinued, the user will experience physical withdrawal. The withdrawal can begin within a few hours since it was last administered. Withdrawal symptoms include:

* Restlessness
* Insomnia
* Diarrhea
* Vomiting
* Cold flashes with goose bumps
* Kicking movements
* Muscle and bone pain[/b]

i've seen this phenom with my own eyes in users of less than 4 months. please note the underlined part. it's takes a bit of time to become a junky but not a long time. even taking it once will lead to a feeling of depression and more afterwards. a long term addiction does not constitute years. i the case of a highly addictive drug like heroin it can be months depending on the regularity taken.

Billy I have gone through withdrawal myself
again I'm not disputing these facts.
Although I certainly didn't suffer from depression
after the first few times I used even with shooting it.
--------------------------------------------------------
i take it by this statement;

Billy I can't speak for most addicts.
I can only speak for myself and I don't know anyone who had an
addiction for heroin after using it a couple ie two or three times,not one!
you don't know a single addict? i don't know more than a handfull of users who stopped after three close together hits.
Of course I know addicts but not anymore.
I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.

I never said I didn't know any.
I said I don't believe the previous statements you made
were true for all addicts. IE;
I don't know anyone who had an
addiction for heroin after using it after one day or so
even two or three times.
I don't know even one who got addicted like that!

----------------------------------

usage; you say;
I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting
to suggest that addicts should be doing such a thing.
That is unheard of in this country!
Ask me or any former addict darling.Wink
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots over a two day period has to have been shooting dope for quite a while.
Perhaps not on the very first few days using.
I would have been dead even with the 1% dope
I shot back then had I taken it that often.
Mind you Billy I'm talking about twenty years ago at least.


Total Use Vs. Average Use

The amount given by the formula above is the total amount used per day. Heroin has a halflife of three hours (caveat).This means that if you use heroin once per day, there will be less than one-half of one percent (0.5%) left in your body each time you use. This is why most addicts find it necessary to use a few times per day. After six hours, the drug is at 25% of its maximum--this is about the time when addicts begin to experience some discomfort from withdrawal.

[color=#0000CD][b]Again Billy I was strictly talking about my experiences and friends of mine I was not generalizing nor am I trying to negate what you stated.

When switching from heroin to codeine, there is no need to compare how long the drugs stay in your body; this is because codeine has the same halflife. For a drug like methadone, this effect is large. Methadone stays in the body eight (or more) times as long as heroin. As a result, you will need only 1/8 as much methadone as heroin to keep from experiencing withdrawal symptoms.
Opioid Strength

Opioids vary in terms of their strength. Heroin is one of the stronger ones. Taken IV, it is 60 times as strong as codeine taken orally. It is even 6 times as strong as methadone (impressively, however, methadone is only 30% weaker than heroin when both are taken orally). The differing strengths of the opioids must also be taken into account when matching doses. [/b]
------------------------------------------------------
you said;
the thing is most (virtually all) people who go out, have a fix, don't just have a fix once a moth etc. most have their first fix on friday, 2nd on sat and third on sunday. after that they actively seek out a fix.

I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.
It certainly wasn't true for me.

heres the underlined section again ;

Total Use Vs. Average Use

The amount given by the formula above is the total amount used per day. Heroin has a halflife of three hours (caveat).This means that if you use heroin once per day, there will be less than one-half of one percent (0.5%) left in your body each time you use. This is why most addicts find it necessary to use a few times per day. After six hours, the drug is at 25% of its maximum--this is about the time when addicts begin to experience some discomfort from withdrawal.

Yes but again they are talking {I percieve} about people who have been using for several years not a few months or days.
---------------------------------------------------

you say:

Billy have you ever been addicted to heroin?
No? Okay let's say you have.
Then why do you keep trying to tell me what
is true when I've actually been through several methods
of Methadone treatment and detox's?
I never took methadone as a way to hold me over until I could get more dope,never! Maybe those things happened or the clients told you these stories where you worked but I can assure you that is not the norm here in the states.

yu don't actually know what i've been through CB nor i what you've been through. Okay I don't know.
Mea Culpa.

Wrong and right Billy!
I have told you in this instance what I went through to give a clearer understanding of my experiences when I was in my twenties,thirties
doing drugs.

you said;

It isn't about tolerance at first it is about wanting to use a particular substance whatever the drug is.
I'm referring to the first days of usages only.


it's more or less what i said with;
if those fixes are weeks apart or even moths aprt them the heroin has already left the system and the tolerance is no where near the same. and the thing is most junkies didn't start by taking it every four days or once a week. they usually took five or six hits over two days. (injections) while under the influence of booze and other drugs such as coke (meaning peer pressure or adventure)

you said;
I don't need a source since I've been there,done that but thank you anyway.
I only said I started out by sniffing and then I progressed to shooting it.
Cold turkey does not work as a method of keeping people off of drugs
and you should know that as a former counselor.

which is pretty much what i said with;

[u]cold turkey: the quickest way to get the drug out of the system, it's also only the first stage in getting the drug out of the system and keeping it out. certain drugs can be given to alleviate the cramps and to a smaller extent the sweats. even then the withdrawal symptoms can still be horrendous. methadone etc just creates other related problems. most junkies take their prescription methadone to tide them over till they get a real fix.
note the underlined part that doesn't say cold turkey keeps people of drugs. in truth it's practiced because giving a substitute drug still keeps drugs in the system., it done so the person remembers how bad a feeling the withdrawal is (it's used as a reinforcement for the latter part of any treatment, it means if you know what being burnt is, you think twice before burning yourself)
i also said;
then like alcoholics they have a guardian angel. in the case of an addict a much closer one whose usually a family member who can be with them virtually 24/7 for 6 months. after that it's daily or bi daily blood tests for a year most fall by the way side.

note the underlined part. i never ever said it cures or keeps them off drugs, in fact i said there is no cure
I believe clients on a clinic can be cured if they commit to not using and abiding by the programs rules.
In this country there are no programs, that have family members keep an eye on the addict to keep them in line since that would create resentment having a person watching you every day.
That doesn't foster trust in any way!

i'll give a source anyway, as to why detox is the first stage of any sensible treatment.

Detoxification

The primary objective of detoxification is to relieve withdrawal symptoms while patients adjust to a drug-free state. Not in itself a treatment for addiction, detoxification is a useful step only when it leads into long-term treatment that is either drug-free (residential or outpatient) or uses medications as part of the treatment. The best documented drug-free treatments are the therapeutic community residential programs lasting at least 3 to 6 months. source;

------------------------------------------------------

again you said;
I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting to do such a thing.
That is unheard of!
Ask me or any former addict darling.Wink
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots over a two day period has been shooting dope for quite a while.

I would have been dead even with the 1% dope I shot back then
had I taken it that often.
C.B.

heroin is seldom under 9 or 10 %
but none the less here's another source about the occurence of a decent junky injecting I.V. style.;
How is heroin used?

Heroin is usually injected, sniffed/snorted, or smoked. Typically, a heroin abuser may inject up to four times a day. Intravenous injection provides the greatest intensity and most rapid onset of euphoria (7 to 8 seconds), while intramuscular injection produces a relatively slow onset of euphoria (5 to 8 minutes). When heroin is sniffed or smoked, peak effects are usually felt within 10 to 15 minutes. Although smoking and sniffing heroin do not produce a "rush" as quickly or as intensely as intravenous injection, NIDA researchers have confirmed that all three forms of heroin administration are addictive. source;

---------------------------------------------------

a good user (junky) will have collapsed all his/her do-able veins withing 6 months or less. they'll be injecting into their penis or piss flaps even their own eye balls, after 8 months or even less. i've had more friends die from o.d,-ing on it than i care to mention. i've lifted a dead friend, a 45 pound girl (not kilos) into a taxi to take her to hospital. she'd been a junky all her adult life but had been in prison for two year prior to the six months of freedom she had.
I did dope over twenty years ago.

as for the purity of heroin, white, black or brown. i can wash it up and tell you it's strength to the nearest 100th of gram in less than 3 minutes. i can do the same with coke.

Wash it up?
Piss flaps?
I can hardly believe that all junkies collapse their veins that quickly though I'm sure it's not impossible.
I thank God that never happened to me and that's is from being extremely careful.

[billy]

it all depends on what you perceive to be a junky.
having a mild dependence on a drug doesn't necessarily
mean someone is a junky. and not all people that take heroin are junkies per say. all people that do take heroin are prone to becoming a junkie if they use it on a frequent basis for a short period of time.


that you say you jacked up. (mainlined or to some extent went the intramuscular route) less than once every four days or more

"I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea to shoot dope every four days!"

isn't the actions of someone who is a heavy usage drug dependent.

an infrequent user will suffer depression, won't build up a tolerance any where near as quickly or as high as a frequent user (junky) and won't in a million years suffer anything like the withdrawal symptoms of a frequent heroin user. and will find it easier to the power of ten to stop using the drug.

in the industry (drug counciling etc) there is no such thing as a cure. there is only abstinence. a cure implies that if you take it again you won't become an addict. any heroin addict who take heroin no matter how long they've been off it will have a much greater urge to take it again than someone whose never had it before. after every cleanup of a junky (getting them to stop taking it) the odds of getting them off the gear becomes harder and subsequently harder each time the stop.

i was in hospital for two weeks for heart surgery. had on average three injection a day. about what an average junky would have.

at the end of two weeks they were drawing blood from my toes because they couldn't (and these were trained blood technicians) hit a vein. addy and digma who were there at the time and who post on this board will attest to the fact. most of my veins had collapsed and i had to tell them no more needles for at least three day.

even now nearly two years later they still sometimes struggle to hit a vein in my arm when i go in for blood tests.

junkies on average spend about 6 months off and six months on due to short prison terms or being locked up for shoplifting etc. obviously this figure can vary. many (not all or most) o'd on their first hit upon release because they have lost the tolerance for the amount they can handle, and end up being treated in hospital.

injecting once every 5 days wouldn't collapse the veins.

most heroin addicts who mainline are real junkies who inject between two and 6 times a day.

those who inject less than once a day are up and coming junkies.
in the main people who mainline and get away with it are wealthy. they eat regularly and have good medicare etc.

the average junky has a bad diet, little money, no medi care and will by all likelihood loose most of teeth within 4 yrs of being a junky.

that said even a wealthy junky who uses (mainlines 4 to 5 times a day will still collapse all his main veins within a six moths period.

washing it up.

when a heroin user gets a suppy he can test it to make sure what percentage pure it is.

if they use the same amount of pure as regular street gear they'd od.
dealers wash up the heroin or coke to see how many time they can adulterate it. and also to make sure they're getting as near to a pure product as possible.

[cigarbabe]

it all depends on what you perceive to be a junky.
having a mild dependence on a drug doesn't necessarily
mean someone is a junky. and not all people that take heroin are junkies per say. all people that do take heroin are prone to becoming a junkie if they use it on a frequent basis for a short period of time.


that you say you jacked up. (mainlined or to some extent went the intramuscular route) less than once every four days or more

"I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea to shoot dope every four days!"

isn't the actions of someone who is a heavy usage drug dependent.

an infrequent user will suffer depression, won't build up a tolerance any where near as quickly or as high as a frequent user (junky) and won't in a million years suffer anything like the withdrawal symptoms of a frequent heroin user. and will find it easier to the power of ten to stop using the drug.

in the industry (drug counciling etc) there is no such thing as a cure. there is only abstinence. a cure implies that if you take it again you won't become an addict. any heroin addict who take heroin no matter how long they've been off it will have a much greater urge to take it again than someone whose never had it before. after every cleanup of a junky (getting them to stop taking it) the odds of getting them off the gear becomes harder and subsequently harder each time the stop.

i was in hospital for two weeks for heart surgery. had on average three injection a day. about what an average junky would have.

at the end of two weeks they were drawing blood from my toes because they couldn't (and these were trained blood technicians) hit a vein. addy and digma who were there at the time and who post on this board will attest to the fact. most of my veins had collapsed and i had to tell them no more needles for at least three day.

Wow I'm sorry to hear that Billy.
I've had more damage done to me from alleged "blood tech's"
than I've had done from shooting dope!
I prefer to have them put in a "triple lumen central line" than
bruising me up for months trying to get an IV in.
whenever possible [most times in fact] I draw my own blood.

even now nearly two years later they still sometimes struggle to hit a vein in my arm when i go in for blood tests.

I just had them infiltrate my last arm vein for a CAT venogram.
The bruise is two months old and huge.

junkies on average spend about 6 months off and six months on due to short prison terms or being locked up for shoplifting etc. obviously this figure can vary. many (not all or most) o'd on their first hit upon release because they have lost the tolerance for the amount they can handle, and end up being treated in hospital.
I agree.
Thank goodness I was never busted
for drugs or shoplifting,robbery any of those usual crimes.

injecting once every 5 days wouldn't collapse the veins.
Agreed.

most heroin addicts who mainline are real junkies who inject between two and 6 times a day.
Agreed.
From my own experience there wasn't any limit
to how much I would do
that depended on how much money
I made that day.

those who inject less than once a day are up and coming junkies.
in the main people who mainline and get away with it are wealthy. they eat regularly and have good medicare etc.
the average junky has a bad diet, little money, no medi care and will by all likelihood loose most of teeth within 4 yrs of being a junky.
that said even a wealthy junky who uses (mainlines 4 to 5 times a day will still collapse all his main veins within a six moths period.

I guess I was very fortunate again!

washing it up.

when a heroin user gets a suppy he can test it to make sure what percentage pure it is.
"Suppy"?
Does that mean supply?

if they use the same amount of pure as regular street gear they'd od.
dealers wash up the heroin or coke to see how many time they can adulterate it. and also to make sure they're getting as near to a pure product as possible.

Agreed Billy
C.B.

[billy]

good to see you outside the sewer CB ,
thanks for the discussion

[cigarbabe]

good to see you outside the sewer CB ,
thanks for the discussion

I'm always in the mood for a real debate Billy!
Thank you everybody for your input and being cordial after I told you I used hard drugs.
These type of posts at lpsg.org or bigdirigible.com always without fail, degenerate into name calling extravaganza's
with the participants mostly calling me names
for revealing part of my history even though it's 20 years old!
It is unnecessary and extremely childish on their parts
and I'm only answering their questions!
C.B.

[srijantje]

there's nothing against being honest

[billy]

we only allow that shit in the sewer CB.

as for things done wrong, we are who we are.