<![CDATA[Poetry Forum - Spotlighting the Hogs -- Critic Edition]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/ Fri, 17 Apr 2026 09:54:21 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[The PigPen on "Immigrants" by Mark Becker]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-25700.html Tue, 11 Jun 2024 06:34:49 +0000 busker]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-25700.html Reproduced below is the author's final post (for now).
There are several insightful critiques - everyone's a winner here.

The original can be found here

(05-31-2024, 05:52 AM)Mark A Becker Wrote:  
crow Wrote:Swap the first two stanzas for narrative cohesion.

Then the main burr left from the original is, “hands full of steel.” Get rid of “steel” which was unknown to the Americas, and you’re closer to depicting the problem you’re depicting.

Hey crow- been a long while.  I do appreciate your comments, and I made extensive edits/comments with regard to other critique to get this one where it is now.  Absolutely, the language issue is nearly insurmountable. 

I intentionally arranged the stanzas: ships/boats/men/hands.  As far as I can tell from reviewing many sources, the 'immigrants' would use smaller boats after anchoring their ships beyond the breakers.

Though it is highly unlikely that native Americans would recognize something called 'steel' upon first encounter, I'm sure they got all too familiar with steel, and very quickly.  I certainly intended this as colonizers coming ashore, yet I intentionally did not identify them as the first colonists in the final version (recognizing the steel issue).

The hardest aspects for me was trying to imagine how native Americans would have responded upon seeing wave after wave coming ashore, and the obvious language issues. 

This is a long-winded response to your comments, but I wanted you to know that I appreciate your pointing to issues that I became aware of, and tried to resolve (while maintaining a self-imposed structure).

Thanks,
Mark

good to see you back
]]> Reproduced below is the author's final post (for now).
There are several insightful critiques - everyone's a winner here.

The original can be found here

(05-31-2024, 05:52 AM)Mark A Becker Wrote:  
crow Wrote:Swap the first two stanzas for narrative cohesion.

Then the main burr left from the original is, “hands full of steel.” Get rid of “steel” which was unknown to the Americas, and you’re closer to depicting the problem you’re depicting.

Hey crow- been a long while.  I do appreciate your comments, and I made extensive edits/comments with regard to other critique to get this one where it is now.  Absolutely, the language issue is nearly insurmountable. 

I intentionally arranged the stanzas: ships/boats/men/hands.  As far as I can tell from reviewing many sources, the 'immigrants' would use smaller boats after anchoring their ships beyond the breakers.

Though it is highly unlikely that native Americans would recognize something called 'steel' upon first encounter, I'm sure they got all too familiar with steel, and very quickly.  I certainly intended this as colonizers coming ashore, yet I intentionally did not identify them as the first colonists in the final version (recognizing the steel issue).

The hardest aspects for me was trying to imagine how native Americans would have responded upon seeing wave after wave coming ashore, and the obvious language issues. 

This is a long-winded response to your comments, but I wanted you to know that I appreciate your pointing to issues that I became aware of, and tried to resolve (while maintaining a self-imposed structure).

Thanks,
Mark

good to see you back
]]> <![CDATA[Todd on "Stability" by reppindetroit]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-17239.html Thu, 04 Jun 2015 22:21:33 +0000 milo]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-17239.html I think Todd really offers enough support and encouragement balanced with specific things to work on in this poem:


Original post: http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-17238...#pid191718
Quote:






Hi RD, welcome to the site! Since you're thinking on using this for a scholarship, I'm going to be even more direct than normal. It's all about the poem and trying to help you make it better I hope some of this helps. This is serious critique, don't lose heart even if there's a lot of criticism I think you can develop this into something workable. Here goes:


Your title isn't exciting. It doesn't demand that I read the poem. Spend some time thinking about your theme and give it some more attention. You repeat stability throughout the poem which cuts the effectiveness of the title. When you use simple titles you want the poem to explode outward with the title anchoring how people interpret the imagery and language. This sort of poem needs a more evocative title.


(2 hours ago)reppindetroit Wrote:  I am a first time poet after reading poetry for my 17 years of life. However, a teacher recommended I submit this for a scholarship. Feel free to tear it apart (just try not to make me cry).

This isn't a rule, more of a sound guideline, try to punctuate like you would in prose. You can avoid the conventions but if you do and your work isn't known to your reader they will assume you don't know what you're doing. Again since you're going for a scholarship I would recommend going the more normal path with punctuation--think of it all as sentences. 

When one’s being is controlled--This feels formal and awkward for an opening "one's being" feels overwrought.
Crisp and collected, as the pages of a book--I'm having trouble with this while paper may be crisp and while ideas might be collected in books or on the pages of a book I don't see how this implies control. The image as it's stated feels a bit murky. If you went with some idea like: "When you feel controlled as if your destiny were written in a book" or some such that would make more sense. I'm not suggesting that as a change per se, I'm just trying to show where it breaks for me.
Scraping through--Scraping through seems odd as opposed to simply reading. There is also an issue with line breaks. This may be too much to get into right now but for now try to rearrange your lines as stand alone ideas not choppy fragments. There will be more to do with them after you've rearranged them, but for now that would probably be a good first pass.
Word by word--You're trying to give a repetitive sense with this and dawn below, maybe consider parallel structure "word after word" to match "dawn after dawn"
With fingers so deftly
Or desperately 
Pushing them through--This sequence also seems a bit odd. I don't see you how with your fingers actually push words through. It's confusing.

When the sun rises in calculated motion--I sort of like calculated motion. It gives a sense of predestination or resignation.
Dawn after dawn, meeting its delicate horizon--delicate is just a modifier which is not as effective as imbuing the horizon with delicacy through a better crafted image. Thematically, delicate seems out of place anyway with what you're trying to convey which seems more machine-like and deterministic.
Perfectly in cue with the clock on the wall--Maybe instead of in cue, in sync, or synchronized.

There is a sense of Stability that is understood--Why capitalize stability? Lines like this require proof from the build up. If instead you combined with "There is stability when the sun rises (line break) in calculated motion" You allow the image to prove the statement.
Devoured with the utmost passion
For nothing is more celebrated than Stability--These last two lines don't add anything. This needs an image of some sort to prove what you are saying. How can you show these ideas in imagery?

But what is seen and heard is not always the forefront of truth--How can you show this without stating it. You're using natural ideas (the sun, time, etc) so how does nature demonstrate your idea?
Not always what it seems to be
For the heart is incessantly watched by the softest eyes and heard with the most delicate ears--Who is doing the watching and hearing? You haven't brought us here naturally so it just seems like a declarative statement.
Known by the faintest of minds
But never understood--appearance of wisdom but doesn't say much.

And this man has a being 
That is forever seen, eternally known
His being, his meaning
Is crisp, collected
Stable
So it seems--Really wordy just to make your point. Again, pare this down to the essentials and try not to get mystical about it even if you use the word. Simple expression will really help you.

Yet his slumber scrapes through like a book--Not clear enough. Scraps still throws me off.
Tainted with stains--sin of some sort. Tainted doesn't feel like it goes with the book imagery. Pages stained, pages discolored, etc
Beaten mercilessly as the pages are ripped--Again stick with the image. Beaten mercilessly shouldn't be here.
Word by word
By filthy fingers with dirty bruises
Deftly--Not a good line. Adverbs are often your enemy. Try to remove as many adjectives and adverbs as you can and it will likely read much stronger.
Fingers that grasp for Stability
Desperately--Again not a good one word line.
And his screams are unheard
Word by word--This repetition loses power each time you use it.
The clock never stops its jesting with each click
For it is Stable
So it seems

But this is merely slumber
So when the sun meets its horizon
And the tormenting clock 
Is now singing its praise
It is reminder that the day must begin
Dirty pages must turn
He will wake
He will smile
He is Stable
So it seems

I think you might have an idea you can develop. It just seems weighted down and hard to see. Try paring down to the essentials and then see what you have. I'm sure this is probably more overwhelming than helpful, but I hope you can use some of it.


Best,


Todd


]]> I think Todd really offers enough support and encouragement balanced with specific things to work on in this poem:


Original post: http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-17238...#pid191718
Quote:






Hi RD, welcome to the site! Since you're thinking on using this for a scholarship, I'm going to be even more direct than normal. It's all about the poem and trying to help you make it better I hope some of this helps. This is serious critique, don't lose heart even if there's a lot of criticism I think you can develop this into something workable. Here goes:


Your title isn't exciting. It doesn't demand that I read the poem. Spend some time thinking about your theme and give it some more attention. You repeat stability throughout the poem which cuts the effectiveness of the title. When you use simple titles you want the poem to explode outward with the title anchoring how people interpret the imagery and language. This sort of poem needs a more evocative title.


(2 hours ago)reppindetroit Wrote:  I am a first time poet after reading poetry for my 17 years of life. However, a teacher recommended I submit this for a scholarship. Feel free to tear it apart (just try not to make me cry).

This isn't a rule, more of a sound guideline, try to punctuate like you would in prose. You can avoid the conventions but if you do and your work isn't known to your reader they will assume you don't know what you're doing. Again since you're going for a scholarship I would recommend going the more normal path with punctuation--think of it all as sentences. 

When one’s being is controlled--This feels formal and awkward for an opening "one's being" feels overwrought.
Crisp and collected, as the pages of a book--I'm having trouble with this while paper may be crisp and while ideas might be collected in books or on the pages of a book I don't see how this implies control. The image as it's stated feels a bit murky. If you went with some idea like: "When you feel controlled as if your destiny were written in a book" or some such that would make more sense. I'm not suggesting that as a change per se, I'm just trying to show where it breaks for me.
Scraping through--Scraping through seems odd as opposed to simply reading. There is also an issue with line breaks. This may be too much to get into right now but for now try to rearrange your lines as stand alone ideas not choppy fragments. There will be more to do with them after you've rearranged them, but for now that would probably be a good first pass.
Word by word--You're trying to give a repetitive sense with this and dawn below, maybe consider parallel structure "word after word" to match "dawn after dawn"
With fingers so deftly
Or desperately 
Pushing them through--This sequence also seems a bit odd. I don't see you how with your fingers actually push words through. It's confusing.

When the sun rises in calculated motion--I sort of like calculated motion. It gives a sense of predestination or resignation.
Dawn after dawn, meeting its delicate horizon--delicate is just a modifier which is not as effective as imbuing the horizon with delicacy through a better crafted image. Thematically, delicate seems out of place anyway with what you're trying to convey which seems more machine-like and deterministic.
Perfectly in cue with the clock on the wall--Maybe instead of in cue, in sync, or synchronized.

There is a sense of Stability that is understood--Why capitalize stability? Lines like this require proof from the build up. If instead you combined with "There is stability when the sun rises (line break) in calculated motion" You allow the image to prove the statement.
Devoured with the utmost passion
For nothing is more celebrated than Stability--These last two lines don't add anything. This needs an image of some sort to prove what you are saying. How can you show these ideas in imagery?

But what is seen and heard is not always the forefront of truth--How can you show this without stating it. You're using natural ideas (the sun, time, etc) so how does nature demonstrate your idea?
Not always what it seems to be
For the heart is incessantly watched by the softest eyes and heard with the most delicate ears--Who is doing the watching and hearing? You haven't brought us here naturally so it just seems like a declarative statement.
Known by the faintest of minds
But never understood--appearance of wisdom but doesn't say much.

And this man has a being 
That is forever seen, eternally known
His being, his meaning
Is crisp, collected
Stable
So it seems--Really wordy just to make your point. Again, pare this down to the essentials and try not to get mystical about it even if you use the word. Simple expression will really help you.

Yet his slumber scrapes through like a book--Not clear enough. Scraps still throws me off.
Tainted with stains--sin of some sort. Tainted doesn't feel like it goes with the book imagery. Pages stained, pages discolored, etc
Beaten mercilessly as the pages are ripped--Again stick with the image. Beaten mercilessly shouldn't be here.
Word by word
By filthy fingers with dirty bruises
Deftly--Not a good line. Adverbs are often your enemy. Try to remove as many adjectives and adverbs as you can and it will likely read much stronger.
Fingers that grasp for Stability
Desperately--Again not a good one word line.
And his screams are unheard
Word by word--This repetition loses power each time you use it.
The clock never stops its jesting with each click
For it is Stable
So it seems

But this is merely slumber
So when the sun meets its horizon
And the tormenting clock 
Is now singing its praise
It is reminder that the day must begin
Dirty pages must turn
He will wake
He will smile
He is Stable
So it seems

I think you might have an idea you can develop. It just seems weighted down and hard to see. Try paring down to the essentials and then see what you have. I'm sure this is probably more overwhelming than helpful, but I hope you can use some of it.


Best,


Todd


]]> <![CDATA[Milo on "Missing the internet" by Just Mercedes]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-16188.html Tue, 09 Dec 2014 09:50:08 +0000 billy]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-16188.html here
Some good feedback throughout the thread but Milo's format and feedback struck me as worthy of a mention. I'd also like to note the graciousness and willingness to edit shown by the poet who's thread it is; Just Mercedes. 
(12-04-2014, 02:29 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  Edit #1
 
 
What’s the name of that broad-leaved herb
Romans prized for mending bones –
you bound leaves tightly around the break,
picked up your shield and kept running?

For some reason "leaved" sounds funny to me instead of "leafed" but I am sure that is a dialect thing.  There is an odd third person/second person thing that is rather distracting - "Romans prized . . . you bound leaves" instead of the more expected "Romans prized . . . they bound" which makes me question the need for pronouns at all instead of just using the participle.  I think the first 2 lines are effective but the last 2 may need some work to make them read natural as well as to tie them stronger to your metaphor.
Quote:
 
I can see it growing in my old garden
under the quince tree, where it smothered
if unchecked the clump of yarrow
and the blue bearded irises
under flat furry leaves
that grew back each year
with a spike in spring of violet
triffid flowers. I can close my eyes
and see drops of dew, a sprinkle of
pearly diamonds reflecting
a precisely inverted world

The first sentence here is rather long and complex.  I wonder if there might be a better way to separate the independent clause - perhaps and em dash or colon instead of the comma splice. "Where it smothered if unchecked" feels rather wordy and clumsy.
Quote:
 
but its name no longer responds.
 
I can even see the book on my bookshelf
in another country, in a room
that doesn't exist any more
in a memory that still does.

"book on my bookshelf" - hmm, I wonder if you would consider just "book on the shelf"
another consideration-
 . . . in a room
that no longer exists
and a memory that still does"
which would economize and push the line break onto exist which seems important from "more" which doesn't.
Quote:
 
I can turn to page 432 and see the
picture but I can’t read the
caption underneath. Is this
how it begins? Breaks that
can’t be mended because
the name has gone?
 
 
the line breaks in this section seem almost deliberately wrong but I can't figure out the reasoning behind them which means they may not be meeting your intent:
the - the -this - that
all words you would normally avoid breaking on.
I think the concept is great.  I was struggling the other day to bring a word to mind and I never got it and it is a little scary at first wondering if this is giong to be the norm now.
Thanks for posting.
 
 
 
 ]]> here
Some good feedback throughout the thread but Milo's format and feedback struck me as worthy of a mention. I'd also like to note the graciousness and willingness to edit shown by the poet who's thread it is; Just Mercedes. 
(12-04-2014, 02:29 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  Edit #1
 
 
What’s the name of that broad-leaved herb
Romans prized for mending bones –
you bound leaves tightly around the break,
picked up your shield and kept running?

For some reason "leaved" sounds funny to me instead of "leafed" but I am sure that is a dialect thing.  There is an odd third person/second person thing that is rather distracting - "Romans prized . . . you bound leaves" instead of the more expected "Romans prized . . . they bound" which makes me question the need for pronouns at all instead of just using the participle.  I think the first 2 lines are effective but the last 2 may need some work to make them read natural as well as to tie them stronger to your metaphor.
Quote:
 
I can see it growing in my old garden
under the quince tree, where it smothered
if unchecked the clump of yarrow
and the blue bearded irises
under flat furry leaves
that grew back each year
with a spike in spring of violet
triffid flowers. I can close my eyes
and see drops of dew, a sprinkle of
pearly diamonds reflecting
a precisely inverted world

The first sentence here is rather long and complex.  I wonder if there might be a better way to separate the independent clause - perhaps and em dash or colon instead of the comma splice. "Where it smothered if unchecked" feels rather wordy and clumsy.
Quote:
 
but its name no longer responds.
 
I can even see the book on my bookshelf
in another country, in a room
that doesn't exist any more
in a memory that still does.

"book on my bookshelf" - hmm, I wonder if you would consider just "book on the shelf"
another consideration-
 . . . in a room
that no longer exists
and a memory that still does"
which would economize and push the line break onto exist which seems important from "more" which doesn't.
Quote:
 
I can turn to page 432 and see the
picture but I can’t read the
caption underneath. Is this
how it begins? Breaks that
can’t be mended because
the name has gone?
 
 
the line breaks in this section seem almost deliberately wrong but I can't figure out the reasoning behind them which means they may not be meeting your intent:
the - the -this - that
all words you would normally avoid breaking on.
I think the concept is great.  I was struggling the other day to bring a word to mind and I never got it and it is a little scary at first wondering if this is giong to be the norm now.
Thanks for posting.
 
 
 
 ]]> <![CDATA[crow on "Frankenstein's Mistress" by ChristopherSea]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14960.html Sun, 13 Jul 2014 01:15:51 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14960.html ------
I was working on this as the last two posts were going up. I'll leave it up, but I didn't mean it to be discouraging Sad I could do this w just about any poem, but I did it w yours bc I thought you might actually find it helpful . . . I was intending to ctrl+v this into a proper word processor and clean it up before posting, but if you're scrapping it, I won't bother . . .
------
If this kind of edit isn't helpful, please let me know Smile I still feel pretty new at this.

Close-read edit
Note: this edit deals with the relation between the macro and the micro on a line-by-line basis, so it's ridiculously long and involved. Please don't think I'm trying to beat up on this poem. Truth is, I like it a great deal, and wouldn't be doing this otw.

Frankenstein’s Mistress
--the title lays out your raw material
----it suggests a // between F's monster and F's mistress, and signals an innovation on the Shelley story
----F's monster was a comment on science. It was assembled from large cuts of various corpses and brought to life through lightning, a common metaphor for God's wrath, judgment, or cruelty. Frankenstein usurped God by using His power to do His work, of giving life, but not according to His will. The violence done by the monster is, then, both ironic *and* due. That is, the perversion of God's will leads to bad things happening.
----TF, the monster embodies a specific anxiety: that scientific progress might anger God/it would lead to disaster
----the // in regards to love is clear. Love is often regarded as God's gift. Modern e-matchmaking allows us to rely on science for love, obviating God's role. We can assemble, by selecting certain personality traits, the love object of our dreams, and then find someone like that online.
----Many commentators have articulated the fear of that pursuit leading to bad outcomes.
------if this poem doesn't deal with those issues, I feel the title is both a miscue and a missed opportunity.
------if this poem isn't terrifying, ditto

I did not fabricate the monster;
--boom. immediately, we're on thin ice. Unless SOMEONE fabricated the monster, the entire errand of this poem is at hazard. That's not to say doomed, but it becomes really tricky

it crept into my life
wearing your skin.
--so . . . see if you can follow me, here, bc it's a tricky point. but it gets to the heart of what's going on, here.
----(1) "your skin" is a metonym for identity.
----(2) "crept into my life / wearing your skin" is tf chronologically ambiguous in an important way:
------the favored construction would be: "a monster, wearing your skin, crept into my life," and I assume most readers will understand it that way. BUT, that reading is nonsensical, given the poetic nature if the work. That is, if the monster usurped the mistress's identity *before* you met the mistress, then she would just be a monsterous mistress, not a monster in mistress's skin. So, we kick the favored construction.
------the disfavored construction is: "you were in my life, and the monster, by creeping into your skin, crept into my life." But this doesn't work, either, bc it betrays the title. suddenly, the metaphor is pod-people, not Frankenstein's monster. [See CONT'D2 for more on this]

I witnessed
the final throes of trust,
knifed on an evening stroll.
--major note: this is a setup for an explication. If it were left without a follow-up "and here's how that happened," it would be like a set-up w no punch line. [this note continues at CONT'D1, below]
--minor note: there are three constructions of the above:
----"trust's final throes were knifed,"
----"I witnessed trust in its final throes, its having been knifed on an evening stroll," and
----"myself having been knifed on an evening stroll, I witnessed the final throes of trust"
------that final reading seems, somewhat counter-intuitively, to work best, but it's so non-obvious that I doubt a reader would get there

I couldn’t stem the glut
of denial spilling on the walkway
through my fingers.
--CONT'D1: this can be the explication only if trust were knifed *while you were ministering to its bleeding out." I'll make it easy to understand that with a short //, "I saw someone get murdered the other night. I was field dressing a knife-wound."
----Here's another way to see what I mean: swap this line with the above and see if it still makes sense. If so, the current version prolly needs revising. Here's that swap:
------"I couldn’t stem the glut of denial spilling on the walkway
through my fingers. I witnessed the final throes of trust, knifed on an evening stroll."
--------I would argue that the second version makes more sense (even though neither makes perfect sense) and that, tf, you've got a problem.

My suspicions were amassing
with each trip into town.
--note: the first two notes are skippable micro notes:
----quick micros: "my suspicions" makes you seem paranoid in contrast to "evidence," "were amassing" seems like a lot of syllables when there are 1-syllable ways to say much the same thing
----a longer micro: "amassing" doesn't work. Caveat: I've found NO AUTHORITY to support this, but I'm right nevertheless Smile Here's the argument: amassing anticipates a pile, stack, or other amorphous accumulation. You can amass bricks into a heap, but not into a wall. Likewise, you can't amass clues into a case; by the same token, you can't amass clues into a bunch of clues. SO, bc "a mass of suspicions" is, here, amounting to a specific narrative of events, "amass" is amiss
--another chronology issue:
----suspicions of what? If you suspected trust was in trouble, throw this line above "I witnessed"
------if you did that flip-flop, together with the other chronology edit, you'd have this story:
--------"I got suspicious that trust was in trouble, then trust bled out, and I witnessed its final throes."
--if there's no chronology issue, then there's a narrative embodiment issue. That is, if the chronology is *right*, then the story as written doesn't match the story that happened--unless I supply an event to the narrative sequence, the narrative doesn't make sense:
----as is, it would read as follows, "trust was bleeding of a knife wound, then it died, then I got suspicious"
------It needs an "of what". So, the makes-sense version would be something like, "trust was bleeding of a knife wound, then it died, then I found a bloody knife in your purse, and so I got suspicious that you'd knifed trust."
--CONT'D2: in the space of a few lines, we were doing Frankenstein, then pod-people, and now Jack the Ripper? Below, with the baked goods, we're doing Sweeney Todd. It's fine to go from one monster trope to the next, but not if the title proposes to stick w one, only

Men fixated
on you, their eyes incensed,
faces inanimate, as if stricken by
an unnamable malady. I realize now
they were reliving the scourge
before your exile.
--this is a mess Sad I have some sense of your meaning, but let me write out the literal version:
----"men obsessed about you, their eyes angry, faces lifeless, as if sick with a malady incapable of being named"
----so, first, you want "fixated" to mean "stared at," I think . It does and it doesn't, but here, "stared at" means what you want and "fixated" doesn't
----second, where is "angry"/ "incensed " coming from?
----third, lifeless faces with enraged eyes is really hard for me to picture/understand the reasons why for?
----fourth, "as if stricken by an unnamable malady" is pure frosting. I don't get any cake out of this. Specifically, the alternative to this simile might be, "stricken by an unnamable malady," in which case I might ask myself, "like what? what would be an unnamable malady?" I might get some ideas and move on. as is, I think, "like what? what would be an unnamable malady AND if I could figure that out, would I be able to use the meaning to modify either "men," "eyes incensed," or "faces inanimate"? And the answer is *no*. An inanimate face with an unnamable malady is a largely empty lexical unit, imho.

----------
If you want me to keep going, I'd be happy to, but I'm worried it's all way too much to absorb. All the best,

crow


The original thread can be found here]]> ------
I was working on this as the last two posts were going up. I'll leave it up, but I didn't mean it to be discouraging Sad I could do this w just about any poem, but I did it w yours bc I thought you might actually find it helpful . . . I was intending to ctrl+v this into a proper word processor and clean it up before posting, but if you're scrapping it, I won't bother . . .
------
If this kind of edit isn't helpful, please let me know Smile I still feel pretty new at this.

Close-read edit
Note: this edit deals with the relation between the macro and the micro on a line-by-line basis, so it's ridiculously long and involved. Please don't think I'm trying to beat up on this poem. Truth is, I like it a great deal, and wouldn't be doing this otw.

Frankenstein’s Mistress
--the title lays out your raw material
----it suggests a // between F's monster and F's mistress, and signals an innovation on the Shelley story
----F's monster was a comment on science. It was assembled from large cuts of various corpses and brought to life through lightning, a common metaphor for God's wrath, judgment, or cruelty. Frankenstein usurped God by using His power to do His work, of giving life, but not according to His will. The violence done by the monster is, then, both ironic *and* due. That is, the perversion of God's will leads to bad things happening.
----TF, the monster embodies a specific anxiety: that scientific progress might anger God/it would lead to disaster
----the // in regards to love is clear. Love is often regarded as God's gift. Modern e-matchmaking allows us to rely on science for love, obviating God's role. We can assemble, by selecting certain personality traits, the love object of our dreams, and then find someone like that online.
----Many commentators have articulated the fear of that pursuit leading to bad outcomes.
------if this poem doesn't deal with those issues, I feel the title is both a miscue and a missed opportunity.
------if this poem isn't terrifying, ditto

I did not fabricate the monster;
--boom. immediately, we're on thin ice. Unless SOMEONE fabricated the monster, the entire errand of this poem is at hazard. That's not to say doomed, but it becomes really tricky

it crept into my life
wearing your skin.
--so . . . see if you can follow me, here, bc it's a tricky point. but it gets to the heart of what's going on, here.
----(1) "your skin" is a metonym for identity.
----(2) "crept into my life / wearing your skin" is tf chronologically ambiguous in an important way:
------the favored construction would be: "a monster, wearing your skin, crept into my life," and I assume most readers will understand it that way. BUT, that reading is nonsensical, given the poetic nature if the work. That is, if the monster usurped the mistress's identity *before* you met the mistress, then she would just be a monsterous mistress, not a monster in mistress's skin. So, we kick the favored construction.
------the disfavored construction is: "you were in my life, and the monster, by creeping into your skin, crept into my life." But this doesn't work, either, bc it betrays the title. suddenly, the metaphor is pod-people, not Frankenstein's monster. [See CONT'D2 for more on this]

I witnessed
the final throes of trust,
knifed on an evening stroll.
--major note: this is a setup for an explication. If it were left without a follow-up "and here's how that happened," it would be like a set-up w no punch line. [this note continues at CONT'D1, below]
--minor note: there are three constructions of the above:
----"trust's final throes were knifed,"
----"I witnessed trust in its final throes, its having been knifed on an evening stroll," and
----"myself having been knifed on an evening stroll, I witnessed the final throes of trust"
------that final reading seems, somewhat counter-intuitively, to work best, but it's so non-obvious that I doubt a reader would get there

I couldn’t stem the glut
of denial spilling on the walkway
through my fingers.
--CONT'D1: this can be the explication only if trust were knifed *while you were ministering to its bleeding out." I'll make it easy to understand that with a short //, "I saw someone get murdered the other night. I was field dressing a knife-wound."
----Here's another way to see what I mean: swap this line with the above and see if it still makes sense. If so, the current version prolly needs revising. Here's that swap:
------"I couldn’t stem the glut of denial spilling on the walkway
through my fingers. I witnessed the final throes of trust, knifed on an evening stroll."
--------I would argue that the second version makes more sense (even though neither makes perfect sense) and that, tf, you've got a problem.

My suspicions were amassing
with each trip into town.
--note: the first two notes are skippable micro notes:
----quick micros: "my suspicions" makes you seem paranoid in contrast to "evidence," "were amassing" seems like a lot of syllables when there are 1-syllable ways to say much the same thing
----a longer micro: "amassing" doesn't work. Caveat: I've found NO AUTHORITY to support this, but I'm right nevertheless Smile Here's the argument: amassing anticipates a pile, stack, or other amorphous accumulation. You can amass bricks into a heap, but not into a wall. Likewise, you can't amass clues into a case; by the same token, you can't amass clues into a bunch of clues. SO, bc "a mass of suspicions" is, here, amounting to a specific narrative of events, "amass" is amiss
--another chronology issue:
----suspicions of what? If you suspected trust was in trouble, throw this line above "I witnessed"
------if you did that flip-flop, together with the other chronology edit, you'd have this story:
--------"I got suspicious that trust was in trouble, then trust bled out, and I witnessed its final throes."
--if there's no chronology issue, then there's a narrative embodiment issue. That is, if the chronology is *right*, then the story as written doesn't match the story that happened--unless I supply an event to the narrative sequence, the narrative doesn't make sense:
----as is, it would read as follows, "trust was bleeding of a knife wound, then it died, then I got suspicious"
------It needs an "of what". So, the makes-sense version would be something like, "trust was bleeding of a knife wound, then it died, then I found a bloody knife in your purse, and so I got suspicious that you'd knifed trust."
--CONT'D2: in the space of a few lines, we were doing Frankenstein, then pod-people, and now Jack the Ripper? Below, with the baked goods, we're doing Sweeney Todd. It's fine to go from one monster trope to the next, but not if the title proposes to stick w one, only

Men fixated
on you, their eyes incensed,
faces inanimate, as if stricken by
an unnamable malady. I realize now
they were reliving the scourge
before your exile.
--this is a mess Sad I have some sense of your meaning, but let me write out the literal version:
----"men obsessed about you, their eyes angry, faces lifeless, as if sick with a malady incapable of being named"
----so, first, you want "fixated" to mean "stared at," I think . It does and it doesn't, but here, "stared at" means what you want and "fixated" doesn't
----second, where is "angry"/ "incensed " coming from?
----third, lifeless faces with enraged eyes is really hard for me to picture/understand the reasons why for?
----fourth, "as if stricken by an unnamable malady" is pure frosting. I don't get any cake out of this. Specifically, the alternative to this simile might be, "stricken by an unnamable malady," in which case I might ask myself, "like what? what would be an unnamable malady?" I might get some ideas and move on. as is, I think, "like what? what would be an unnamable malady AND if I could figure that out, would I be able to use the meaning to modify either "men," "eyes incensed," or "faces inanimate"? And the answer is *no*. An inanimate face with an unnamable malady is a largely empty lexical unit, imho.

----------
If you want me to keep going, I'd be happy to, but I'm worried it's all way too much to absorb. All the best,

crow


The original thread can be found here]]> <![CDATA[trueenigma on "Hope Behind the Wheel" by tigerflye]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14959.html Sun, 13 Jul 2014 01:08:46 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14959.html (12-31-2013, 07:30 AM)tigrflye Wrote:  He gave it up somewhere along the way,
and sadly, I'm the one who's forced to see
the skin relax on bones, a flesh-display
of discontent to share the road with me.
I miss the man he was before his eyes,
half-closed with stress, averted mine. He lost
the boyish smile that shivered up my thighs
and gently warmed my womb. Away, he tossed
my timid touch, unwilling to be soothed
or let me soothe myself. Sweat-painted hide
is now just diluted memory he used
to be so ever-willing to provide.
But I won't leave him struggling there alone.
I'll keep my vows, continue driving home.
This seems fine to me; just a semi-colon needed to end L1.
L2 could perhaps end on a better verb than "see", which seems to be performing a function a little closer to something like "watch".
Some may see "along the way", and "share the road with me" as cliche, but I think it works; for me, the couplet redeems, reconciles, and refreshes it. You have an anapest in L11, but I think it may be intentional, and it works for me as well, actually I think it's /perfect/: the anapest "dilutes" the line--content matching form.

The break on "he lost" in L6 is clever, I like it. The breaks on 8 and ten contain good images, but the pauses there are not as strong and some of the rhyme is lost--it may be a worthy compromise though: you get some good tension on 8, and the image in ten is interesting, original, and well, sexy.

Overall I think the interplay between sexual/emotional tension and the two characters is handled quite well both the aurally and visually, and it is really a pleasure to read.

P.s. You need some punctuation after "memory" in L11. I'd suggest maybe loosing the hyphen in L10 and using a dash. Also, perhaps a dash, semi-colon or colon might be a good idea at the end on L13, to connect the two lines.






The original thread can be found here]]> (12-31-2013, 07:30 AM)tigrflye Wrote:  He gave it up somewhere along the way,
and sadly, I'm the one who's forced to see
the skin relax on bones, a flesh-display
of discontent to share the road with me.
I miss the man he was before his eyes,
half-closed with stress, averted mine. He lost
the boyish smile that shivered up my thighs
and gently warmed my womb. Away, he tossed
my timid touch, unwilling to be soothed
or let me soothe myself. Sweat-painted hide
is now just diluted memory he used
to be so ever-willing to provide.
But I won't leave him struggling there alone.
I'll keep my vows, continue driving home.
This seems fine to me; just a semi-colon needed to end L1.
L2 could perhaps end on a better verb than "see", which seems to be performing a function a little closer to something like "watch".
Some may see "along the way", and "share the road with me" as cliche, but I think it works; for me, the couplet redeems, reconciles, and refreshes it. You have an anapest in L11, but I think it may be intentional, and it works for me as well, actually I think it's /perfect/: the anapest "dilutes" the line--content matching form.

The break on "he lost" in L6 is clever, I like it. The breaks on 8 and ten contain good images, but the pauses there are not as strong and some of the rhyme is lost--it may be a worthy compromise though: you get some good tension on 8, and the image in ten is interesting, original, and well, sexy.

Overall I think the interplay between sexual/emotional tension and the two characters is handled quite well both the aurally and visually, and it is really a pleasure to read.

P.s. You need some punctuation after "memory" in L11. I'd suggest maybe loosing the hyphen in L10 and using a dash. Also, perhaps a dash, semi-colon or colon might be a good idea at the end on L13, to connect the two lines.






The original thread can be found here]]> <![CDATA[isis on "As if it knows" by hog butcher]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14703.html Wed, 04 Jun 2014 21:39:25 +0000 tectak]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14703.html Isis
Junior Member

Posts: 18
Joined: May 2014
Warning Level: 0%
RE: As if it knows
One contrast - and possible contradiction - that struck me about this poem is the simple language and the reverence and spirituality that the speaker experiences. I noticed this most in the second stanza:
(05-30-2014 02:44 PM)Hog Butcher Wrote:
I come to a clearing
where the ferns grow densely
and what sun there is shines down through.
The sight commands a fallen knee and
begs worship of whatever it is that made
the forest and put me here to see it,
as the ferns glow, wet
in the dim grey light.
Is this purposefully ironic? We're shown a very simple scene, one of the sun coming through and hitting a dense growth of ferns. I can imagine something like it by drawing on memory, but it doesn't make me feel fulfilled, reverent, in awe, or even relaxed to be in the forest. I'm waiting for more. I end up feeling distant from the speaker because the sight commands the speaker down on a knee, but doesn't command the reader down on a knee. Later in the stanza we get something beautiful, the ferns glowing and wet in gray light. But even though you're describing something beautiful it's pretty pared down. The sentences are mostly simple. The voice, the tone of the poem sound very even, quiet. I think one way to get across the main feeling of the poem more clearly would be to try and bring out a sense of wonder and worship just from the description. Describe the forest so we hear gospel signing.

Part of the reason the poem falls flat for me I think is because it's all written in the same even tone or voice, when there are big swings in the poem, a large contrast between the bended knee of the second stanza and the realization in the third stanza that there is only the world. The text of the poem suggests that the speaker bumps down to earth at some point, either when getting soggy knees in the woods or on the walk back home. But I don't feel that bump, that shift myself. It's basically the same issue as in the second stanza. I can get what the speaker is feeling because it's described/shown in the poem, but I don't connect with it … I'm not feeling along with the speaker.

I think a greater contrast between the parts of the poem would help a lot. There are lots of ways to do this: form, sound, tone, the kinds of imagery used, overall word choice. Personally, I'd mess around with the 'level' of language, maybe religious language in the first half and scientific language in the second half. That's kind of happening already, but the effect could be amplified. I might also intensify the imagery in the first half and "gray it out" in the second half. But it's up to you - there are many ways to revise a poem. I think this poem would be a lot more effective if we could swoop up with the speaker at the beginning and fall back down at the end.

One thing I found interesting about this poem was the thoughts about death at the end:

(05-30-2014 02:44 PM)Hog Butcher Wrote:
only a world
throbbing violently with life
that will shrivel up and die,
dragging me down with it,
This really surprised me, because I feel like the thing that's hardest to deal with, and the thing that often strikes me most as a biologist, is that life will carry on just fine without us, maybe even do better without us. I will one day die and humanity as a whole will one day die too, but the earth will continue "throbbing with life" as if we never were … and while that idea is hard to get ones head around at times, I often take it as a "given". Here the speaker's perspective is so different. It feels bitter to me, but maybe it's not? Maybe it's more tied in to the forest, in a way? Anyway, I think this is worth exploring more - perhaps in this poem, perhaps in other poems.]]> Isis
Junior Member

Posts: 18
Joined: May 2014
Warning Level: 0%
RE: As if it knows
One contrast - and possible contradiction - that struck me about this poem is the simple language and the reverence and spirituality that the speaker experiences. I noticed this most in the second stanza:
(05-30-2014 02:44 PM)Hog Butcher Wrote:
I come to a clearing
where the ferns grow densely
and what sun there is shines down through.
The sight commands a fallen knee and
begs worship of whatever it is that made
the forest and put me here to see it,
as the ferns glow, wet
in the dim grey light.
Is this purposefully ironic? We're shown a very simple scene, one of the sun coming through and hitting a dense growth of ferns. I can imagine something like it by drawing on memory, but it doesn't make me feel fulfilled, reverent, in awe, or even relaxed to be in the forest. I'm waiting for more. I end up feeling distant from the speaker because the sight commands the speaker down on a knee, but doesn't command the reader down on a knee. Later in the stanza we get something beautiful, the ferns glowing and wet in gray light. But even though you're describing something beautiful it's pretty pared down. The sentences are mostly simple. The voice, the tone of the poem sound very even, quiet. I think one way to get across the main feeling of the poem more clearly would be to try and bring out a sense of wonder and worship just from the description. Describe the forest so we hear gospel signing.

Part of the reason the poem falls flat for me I think is because it's all written in the same even tone or voice, when there are big swings in the poem, a large contrast between the bended knee of the second stanza and the realization in the third stanza that there is only the world. The text of the poem suggests that the speaker bumps down to earth at some point, either when getting soggy knees in the woods or on the walk back home. But I don't feel that bump, that shift myself. It's basically the same issue as in the second stanza. I can get what the speaker is feeling because it's described/shown in the poem, but I don't connect with it … I'm not feeling along with the speaker.

I think a greater contrast between the parts of the poem would help a lot. There are lots of ways to do this: form, sound, tone, the kinds of imagery used, overall word choice. Personally, I'd mess around with the 'level' of language, maybe religious language in the first half and scientific language in the second half. That's kind of happening already, but the effect could be amplified. I might also intensify the imagery in the first half and "gray it out" in the second half. But it's up to you - there are many ways to revise a poem. I think this poem would be a lot more effective if we could swoop up with the speaker at the beginning and fall back down at the end.

One thing I found interesting about this poem was the thoughts about death at the end:

(05-30-2014 02:44 PM)Hog Butcher Wrote:
only a world
throbbing violently with life
that will shrivel up and die,
dragging me down with it,
This really surprised me, because I feel like the thing that's hardest to deal with, and the thing that often strikes me most as a biologist, is that life will carry on just fine without us, maybe even do better without us. I will one day die and humanity as a whole will one day die too, but the earth will continue "throbbing with life" as if we never were … and while that idea is hard to get ones head around at times, I often take it as a "given". Here the speaker's perspective is so different. It feels bitter to me, but maybe it's not? Maybe it's more tied in to the forest, in a way? Anyway, I think this is worth exploring more - perhaps in this poem, perhaps in other poems.]]> <![CDATA[Tomoffing on "On break" by kindofahippy]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14462.html Sun, 11 May 2014 09:54:03 +0000 tectak]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14462.html

Your theme comes across no problem, you've nailed that.

However, in this piece you have used rhymes throughout. Some work, some do not.
Rhyme is as much dependent on meter as it is on the words chosen.
It's pointless of me to rhyme to you, if when you arrive there your face is blue from all of the air that you've have to go through!!

What I mean is, if you wish to keep the rhyme, you need to bring some kind of metrical structure to this. Otherwise, remove the rhymes that don't work.


On a separate note, I have heard it said before that "I didn't use meter to reinforce the chaos" (or something to that effect). I think that's an escape route from the challenge of writing a consistent meter to be honest. It doesn't reinforce a sense of chaos or confusion, it makes it chaotic and confusing to read. They are very different.

A truly skillful poet might convey those feelings by writing in a consistent meter that draws me in and along and right at the moment I should sense the confusion, they deliberately depart from meter.

Anyway, my opinion only.

Thanks again, t
IP Address: Logged]]>

Your theme comes across no problem, you've nailed that.

However, in this piece you have used rhymes throughout. Some work, some do not.
Rhyme is as much dependent on meter as it is on the words chosen.
It's pointless of me to rhyme to you, if when you arrive there your face is blue from all of the air that you've have to go through!!

What I mean is, if you wish to keep the rhyme, you need to bring some kind of metrical structure to this. Otherwise, remove the rhymes that don't work.


On a separate note, I have heard it said before that "I didn't use meter to reinforce the chaos" (or something to that effect). I think that's an escape route from the challenge of writing a consistent meter to be honest. It doesn't reinforce a sense of chaos or confusion, it makes it chaotic and confusing to read. They are very different.

A truly skillful poet might convey those feelings by writing in a consistent meter that draws me in and along and right at the moment I should sense the confusion, they deliberately depart from meter.

Anyway, my opinion only.

Thanks again, t
IP Address: Logged]]> <![CDATA[RSaba on False Memory by tectak]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14421.html Thu, 08 May 2014 10:36:48 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-14421.html Hi tectak,
This is a haunting piece. I enjoyed reading it, and I especially appreciated the way the stanzas are organized- it even looks nice on the page. Some really cool little phrases popped out at me.
I hope this feedback helps- I'll just point out the few spots that tripped me up.

(05-06-2014, 06:24 PM)tectak Wrote:  False Memory

The last chord squeezed in to into the space between me and my head.
I played in blue and minor keys,
drifting shifts on dog-day seas, love these two lines- I'm enjoying how you slip in and out of meter.
not noticing that memories
were sails that pulled my ship along;
though by my hand and Siren song I don't think "siren" needs to be capitalized, since the siren in this case is a non-specific creature.
I willingly was led.

I watched a leaden evening sky transmute in to the grail.
Bright fingers, golden, thrust through cloud; maybe switch that to "bright golden fingers," it doesn't change the rhythm. The way it is now tripped me up, I had to read it a few times.
I saw the cup held up and vowed
that thoughts like these were still allowed.
Though manhood takes from every boy I like the sound of these last three lines. However, they don't quite make sense to me- a bit contradictie. Manhood takes from every boy a memory of first love- ok, I got that. False memories prevailing complete that. In fact, it's just the word "though" that muddies this. The word "though" at the beginning of the sentence necessitates that the second part of the sentence contradict the first, which it does not, since false memories prevailing is just another way to repeat the first bit. Removing the "though" makes the sentence make sense. Perhaps replace with "since."
true telling of that first love joy, perhaps "first love's joy?" Once again, I think that is a bit smoother.
false memories prevail.

I walked beside a blue-bell hill where birches crowd the view; "walked" and then "crowd"- there are two different verb tenses here... the rest of the narrative is in the past, maybe both of these should be too, although I understand that this could disrupt the meter...
but then, transfixed, I stopped and sighed. Transfixed by what?
From deep within I realised
a sadness dwelt there, minimised
by all the years of living lies,
choked by another's binding ties:
a love that I once knew. melancholy ending- the poem definitely sinks in mood as you descend through the stanzas. I like that.

tectak
2000-2014

As I said, I enjoyed this a lot. I think it's really neat and thought-provoking, and I hope that the edits I suggested make sense and help. Smile


View the original thread here.]]> Hi tectak,
This is a haunting piece. I enjoyed reading it, and I especially appreciated the way the stanzas are organized- it even looks nice on the page. Some really cool little phrases popped out at me.
I hope this feedback helps- I'll just point out the few spots that tripped me up.

(05-06-2014, 06:24 PM)tectak Wrote:  False Memory

The last chord squeezed in to into the space between me and my head.
I played in blue and minor keys,
drifting shifts on dog-day seas, love these two lines- I'm enjoying how you slip in and out of meter.
not noticing that memories
were sails that pulled my ship along;
though by my hand and Siren song I don't think "siren" needs to be capitalized, since the siren in this case is a non-specific creature.
I willingly was led.

I watched a leaden evening sky transmute in to the grail.
Bright fingers, golden, thrust through cloud; maybe switch that to "bright golden fingers," it doesn't change the rhythm. The way it is now tripped me up, I had to read it a few times.
I saw the cup held up and vowed
that thoughts like these were still allowed.
Though manhood takes from every boy I like the sound of these last three lines. However, they don't quite make sense to me- a bit contradictie. Manhood takes from every boy a memory of first love- ok, I got that. False memories prevailing complete that. In fact, it's just the word "though" that muddies this. The word "though" at the beginning of the sentence necessitates that the second part of the sentence contradict the first, which it does not, since false memories prevailing is just another way to repeat the first bit. Removing the "though" makes the sentence make sense. Perhaps replace with "since."
true telling of that first love joy, perhaps "first love's joy?" Once again, I think that is a bit smoother.
false memories prevail.

I walked beside a blue-bell hill where birches crowd the view; "walked" and then "crowd"- there are two different verb tenses here... the rest of the narrative is in the past, maybe both of these should be too, although I understand that this could disrupt the meter...
but then, transfixed, I stopped and sighed. Transfixed by what?
From deep within I realised
a sadness dwelt there, minimised
by all the years of living lies,
choked by another's binding ties:
a love that I once knew. melancholy ending- the poem definitely sinks in mood as you descend through the stanzas. I like that.

tectak
2000-2014

As I said, I enjoyed this a lot. I think it's really neat and thought-provoking, and I hope that the edits I suggested make sense and help. Smile


View the original thread here.]]> <![CDATA[Ellajam on "Dog in a Box" by trueenigma]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12955.html Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:29:50 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12955.html
(11-30-2013, 05:49 PM)trueenigma Wrote:  The grip that holds too tight is not so powerful— this line smelled a bit like "if you love it set it free"not a good start for me
it is the leash that leaves a little slack, then this, beautifully said, sweet rhymes
choke collar and a snack, that keeps control.
A steady diet could never bring me back,

I like the chilli in the can. This box I like the chili, a preference for it over homecooking says a lot about the home
is home. I have a family, and pets,
protect the pups from leering chicken hawks.
I make my annual visits to the vet. This line was off to me, you the dog or the owner of pets? It stopped me,

The leash still trails behind me by the chain
and its medallion, but I can't return. Great image
I've learned humility, and self-restraint,
are two things every dog has right to earn. I really don't get anything from the last two lines, and they don't seem to suit the poem

Read the original thread here]]>
(11-30-2013, 05:49 PM)trueenigma Wrote:  The grip that holds too tight is not so powerful— this line smelled a bit like "if you love it set it free"not a good start for me
it is the leash that leaves a little slack, then this, beautifully said, sweet rhymes
choke collar and a snack, that keeps control.
A steady diet could never bring me back,

I like the chilli in the can. This box I like the chili, a preference for it over homecooking says a lot about the home
is home. I have a family, and pets,
protect the pups from leering chicken hawks.
I make my annual visits to the vet. This line was off to me, you the dog or the owner of pets? It stopped me,

The leash still trails behind me by the chain
and its medallion, but I can't return. Great image
I've learned humility, and self-restraint,
are two things every dog has right to earn. I really don't get anything from the last two lines, and they don't seem to suit the poem

Read the original thread here]]> <![CDATA[ChristopherSea on "Always Winter" by Todd]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12954.html Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:59:55 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12954.html for Jadis

The first flakes were red--not white. Ah, some blood in those veins
before the big chill
Before light, before night, there was interesting enjambment, it works
an everlasting tree.

Before the tree,
if you held a stone
to your ear
it would whisper
of seeds beneath soil--
the buds restless. Would ‘the buds restlessness’ be better?

If you warmed the stone
between your hands,
it would pulse like the heart
of a traitor,

like a blush
on your too-white skin. I would switch these lines, if you can (see below)

Ah, Jadis the white witch! I like your use of stone, as it can serve not just as her heart, but as one of her stoned victims, either way it works as a plea to spark humanity back into this Ice Queen. If you swapped the last two lines, Jadis would go red to white to red again (or the possibility), perhaps better reflecting and tying into the opener. Nice Todd./Chris


View the original thread here]]> for Jadis

The first flakes were red--not white. Ah, some blood in those veins
before the big chill
Before light, before night, there was interesting enjambment, it works
an everlasting tree.

Before the tree,
if you held a stone
to your ear
it would whisper
of seeds beneath soil--
the buds restless. Would ‘the buds restlessness’ be better?

If you warmed the stone
between your hands,
it would pulse like the heart
of a traitor,

like a blush
on your too-white skin. I would switch these lines, if you can (see below)

Ah, Jadis the white witch! I like your use of stone, as it can serve not just as her heart, but as one of her stoned victims, either way it works as a plea to spark humanity back into this Ice Queen. If you swapped the last two lines, Jadis would go red to white to red again (or the possibility), perhaps better reflecting and tying into the opener. Nice Todd./Chris


View the original thread here]]> <![CDATA[Laura Marx on "Lycanthropy" by ChristopherSea]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12953.html Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:55:45 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12953.html strange that you'd pick iambic tetrameter, though, for this poem, which is so violent. It's bouncy. I'm expecting a joke by the fourth line of each verse, not 'never pity my abject soul.' I wonder if you chose it intentionally, as a juxtaposition - regardless, I do not really feel it works.

Quote:I dread the romance of midnight really nice opening
and your poet's false harvest moon, but, I don't understand what this means
which steers the tides and lights your way,
whilst invading my sickened cells. a little awkward and unclear - the first stanza could be much stronger. I'd suggest replacing this line for a phrase which makes the 'I am a werewolf' thing a lot more obvious

In fits of hydrophobia,
rabid thoughts usurp my senses.
What inspires the hearts of lovers,
vexes my despicable core. despicable isn't really in meter as I can read it? Maybe 'my horrid old core', or something (though that has an out-of-place masculine ending)

My lust is more like contagion;
in your terror, my hunger grows.
Grins transform into grimaces
when my shadow’s cast on all fours.vague - could be made more clear. I'm guessing the poet is about to bed me, and then turns into a wolf, to my horror? The last two lines here could easily be switched out for something more concrete. This isn't the time to be subtle with poet games, here, go hard - as in, rather flirting with it 'my shadow's cast on all fours', say, 'I'm a wolf' outright - show me the money!

My resources have been exhausted
on a cure for this malady;
please deliver me kegs of rum
and narcotics to blunt my ire. there's a major transformation in subject matter with this verse, and I really like it. The poem is strongest here

Go crush the mandrake into paste;'into' disrupts the rhythm - it'd be much better written simply as 'to' - 'Go crush the mandrake to paste'
prepare a bitter wolfs-bane draft.
Maintain resolve and don't waver;
never pity my abject soul.waver/never is very nice here

Gather up Nightshade and Hemlock
to brew a lethal cup of tea.slow and slithery wording here, vowel-heavy; gorgeous!
I welcome your silver bullets;
take aim, lest I disembowel you.switching from 'do this to me' to 'I will do this to you' is too sudden here, for me, it's too out-of-sync; something like 'take aim, and [whatever I'd do]' instead; this threat doesn't really add anything

Ignore the human before you;
beware of the beast deep within.effective
Better run and hide your daughters;
I once had a little girl too.Sort of jarring - get me stoned, kill me, and then run and hide your girls? It's a sinister ending but quite out of place.

The poem would benefit from clarity exponentially. It's very vague. If it wasn't for the title I would have thought this was a poem about a rapist or something like that. It'd have taken me all the way to wolfsbane and hemlock to get any clue that this was about a wolfman if it wasn't for the title.

To me, really, the poem really comes into its own in stanza 4. The first three stanzas are too vague to really mean anything or be very threatening. You seem to have been preoccupied trying to come up with poetic ways to say 'I am a werewolf'. At stanza 4, though, it lights up; I have never seen lycanthropy treated in this way before, which is good. 'Come unto me with poisons and narcotics!' - it's a very interesting angle. My advice is start there. That's a strong start and it keeps that strength up until the end. A tortured old werewolf saying: get me drunk and kill me.


View the original thread here]]> strange that you'd pick iambic tetrameter, though, for this poem, which is so violent. It's bouncy. I'm expecting a joke by the fourth line of each verse, not 'never pity my abject soul.' I wonder if you chose it intentionally, as a juxtaposition - regardless, I do not really feel it works.

Quote:I dread the romance of midnight really nice opening
and your poet's false harvest moon, but, I don't understand what this means
which steers the tides and lights your way,
whilst invading my sickened cells. a little awkward and unclear - the first stanza could be much stronger. I'd suggest replacing this line for a phrase which makes the 'I am a werewolf' thing a lot more obvious

In fits of hydrophobia,
rabid thoughts usurp my senses.
What inspires the hearts of lovers,
vexes my despicable core. despicable isn't really in meter as I can read it? Maybe 'my horrid old core', or something (though that has an out-of-place masculine ending)

My lust is more like contagion;
in your terror, my hunger grows.
Grins transform into grimaces
when my shadow’s cast on all fours.vague - could be made more clear. I'm guessing the poet is about to bed me, and then turns into a wolf, to my horror? The last two lines here could easily be switched out for something more concrete. This isn't the time to be subtle with poet games, here, go hard - as in, rather flirting with it 'my shadow's cast on all fours', say, 'I'm a wolf' outright - show me the money!

My resources have been exhausted
on a cure for this malady;
please deliver me kegs of rum
and narcotics to blunt my ire. there's a major transformation in subject matter with this verse, and I really like it. The poem is strongest here

Go crush the mandrake into paste;'into' disrupts the rhythm - it'd be much better written simply as 'to' - 'Go crush the mandrake to paste'
prepare a bitter wolfs-bane draft.
Maintain resolve and don't waver;
never pity my abject soul.waver/never is very nice here

Gather up Nightshade and Hemlock
to brew a lethal cup of tea.slow and slithery wording here, vowel-heavy; gorgeous!
I welcome your silver bullets;
take aim, lest I disembowel you.switching from 'do this to me' to 'I will do this to you' is too sudden here, for me, it's too out-of-sync; something like 'take aim, and [whatever I'd do]' instead; this threat doesn't really add anything

Ignore the human before you;
beware of the beast deep within.effective
Better run and hide your daughters;
I once had a little girl too.Sort of jarring - get me stoned, kill me, and then run and hide your girls? It's a sinister ending but quite out of place.

The poem would benefit from clarity exponentially. It's very vague. If it wasn't for the title I would have thought this was a poem about a rapist or something like that. It'd have taken me all the way to wolfsbane and hemlock to get any clue that this was about a wolfman if it wasn't for the title.

To me, really, the poem really comes into its own in stanza 4. The first three stanzas are too vague to really mean anything or be very threatening. You seem to have been preoccupied trying to come up with poetic ways to say 'I am a werewolf'. At stanza 4, though, it lights up; I have never seen lycanthropy treated in this way before, which is good. 'Come unto me with poisons and narcotics!' - it's a very interesting angle. My advice is start there. That's a strong start and it keeps that strength up until the end. A tortured old werewolf saying: get me drunk and kill me.


View the original thread here]]> <![CDATA[Cidermaid on "An Outpost of Divinity" by Heslopian]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12952.html Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:52:38 +0000 Leanne]]> https://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-12952.html Overall this one has fascinated me, but perhaps for the wrong reasons. This is the third spiritual poem you have posted and they have all had a slightly dark / alternate view point from mainstream perspective. This is good and offers something fresh.
My enjoyment on the previous poem (nature’s revelation) and this one has been blighted by the same problem – namely the slightly obscure context of the details offered. I love both poems by the way but feel at a slight loss as to how to offer crit on either of them. They both have a “confessional” tone to them from the view of a salvation lost theme. (The three voices was another interesting work from this perspective as well). First off before I attempted to offer any thoughts on this I wanted to encourage you to continue on your current writing quest as I think you have something within you that needs to be written. It almost feels like the three recent pieces have the same voice or understory behind all of them and that perhaps the true poem is still locked within the three poems you have put out recently – Just a thought and MHO.


"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 8:12, King James Bible

We whispered together like children in outer darkness, together seems unecessasary, also I almost want to read this reversed: Children of the outer darkness, we whispered
a world of Absolute Nothing, Think this would read better as a flat statement with a period after nothing.
swishes of light penetrating as a knife through crisp blue air, ...penetrating could then become penetrated and this would sharpen up the image perhaps – which I love . Particularly like the swishes of light to symbolise a creational element to the image.
and us, random beings, the fungal fringes of Creation, also really like the idea of fungal fringes. My mind takes me on a thought line of how a fungus can explode with millions of micro spores – so from this I get a big bang image. I thought it was a clever use of images.
caught in our trap, outside God, outside any love but each others'. Here is where the layers of complexity start to build. Still good at this stage to my read. But so far I have the nod of the religious text firmly fixing the wheels thought into a set path, quickly followed by the mention of children – so God the father is already in the picture for me. The children are in rebellion and (I get an under image of treason because of the whole whispered…sedition from the snake thing), so we have the fall, eviction from Eden and then again the aspect of the loss of salvation and the resultant pain (the penetration of the knife) of separation from the blue sky vastness and purity of all that is good into this nothingness in a dark place with only the infected crumbs left over from creation are found. From we I get a couple item image but there in the last line I get the sense of a corruption of this relationship – it is a trap – the relationship between those that whisper together is the problem – but then you introduce a notion that this trap is unjust because there is love expressed between them. So far so good but I have a lot of details and ground that has been covered already – taken with a broad brush the story of creation / the fall is so familiar and this is a good retake of these details with a fresh eye – so I really like it.


We whispered together, and we touched, Not sure you need to repeat we whispered together
animate flesh connecting, divisble souls collated this line reads very solid and well for me and firms up all the above details
in this outpost of Divinity. The sensitive soul, repetition of the word souls seems over done. Think you could devise some way of expressing the idea without the repetition. Perhaps by the use of a designation: The souls, sensitive rational and vegetative. Just an idea.
the rational soul, the vegetative soul...
Robert Burton's trinity, conceived as far from Eden The use of The reference to Robert Burton seems obscure . I am reasonably well read in spiritual things, so Plato references within your text yep get it, Augustine pointers – yes these also; but I had not come across his work and even after doing quite a lot of Google searching, I had only a sketchy idea of what his work / ideas were. Think this makes it inaccessible to most readers – myself included. How about just saying:- an idea of the trinity

as Grace is from wolves... these three in two became six, I did not get the wolves reference. (sheep amongst wolves perhaps but felt it was unclear) and as for the three into two become six ??? the number of the beast reference I thought perhaps, but this is way too involved. So here is from my understanding of what the poem is saying and linking this into my spiritual reading of this. 6 = perfection (6 days of creation and all that good stuff) The two that were cast out for the relationship – that never-the-less loved each other, both have three aspects to their spiritual nature / souls. They have become one (as in a marriage, but somehow this union is a sin and they are cast outside of God’s love for this). Yet this love is seen as real and as valid as any other expression of love. And because of this a judgement is made against the God who would condemn such a co-joining. I read the rest of the poem as a rant against God for the injustice of the judgement and the harsh portrayal of the love that is expressed.
one light flowing out from within, one wholeness,
one crude totality. God's dismembered limbs,
crawling across that sludge of His design, met one another
and melded, to form a grotesque animal, a beast in esoteric love.

I have really enjoyed reading and working through this one (and reading your other recent offerings). I'm sorry for the slightly rambling reply and thoughts here. As I said above I have struggled to know where to start to offer my thoughts. I hope they might prove of some help. This is a worthy idea to be working with and deserves the attention. All the best AJ.



View the original thread here]]> Overall this one has fascinated me, but perhaps for the wrong reasons. This is the third spiritual poem you have posted and they have all had a slightly dark / alternate view point from mainstream perspective. This is good and offers something fresh.
My enjoyment on the previous poem (nature’s revelation) and this one has been blighted by the same problem – namely the slightly obscure context of the details offered. I love both poems by the way but feel at a slight loss as to how to offer crit on either of them. They both have a “confessional” tone to them from the view of a salvation lost theme. (The three voices was another interesting work from this perspective as well). First off before I attempted to offer any thoughts on this I wanted to encourage you to continue on your current writing quest as I think you have something within you that needs to be written. It almost feels like the three recent pieces have the same voice or understory behind all of them and that perhaps the true poem is still locked within the three poems you have put out recently – Just a thought and MHO.


"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 8:12, King James Bible

We whispered together like children in outer darkness, together seems unecessasary, also I almost want to read this reversed: Children of the outer darkness, we whispered
a world of Absolute Nothing, Think this would read better as a flat statement with a period after nothing.
swishes of light penetrating as a knife through crisp blue air, ...penetrating could then become penetrated and this would sharpen up the image perhaps – which I love . Particularly like the swishes of light to symbolise a creational element to the image.
and us, random beings, the fungal fringes of Creation, also really like the idea of fungal fringes. My mind takes me on a thought line of how a fungus can explode with millions of micro spores – so from this I get a big bang image. I thought it was a clever use of images.
caught in our trap, outside God, outside any love but each others'. Here is where the layers of complexity start to build. Still good at this stage to my read. But so far I have the nod of the religious text firmly fixing the wheels thought into a set path, quickly followed by the mention of children – so God the father is already in the picture for me. The children are in rebellion and (I get an under image of treason because of the whole whispered…sedition from the snake thing), so we have the fall, eviction from Eden and then again the aspect of the loss of salvation and the resultant pain (the penetration of the knife) of separation from the blue sky vastness and purity of all that is good into this nothingness in a dark place with only the infected crumbs left over from creation are found. From we I get a couple item image but there in the last line I get the sense of a corruption of this relationship – it is a trap – the relationship between those that whisper together is the problem – but then you introduce a notion that this trap is unjust because there is love expressed between them. So far so good but I have a lot of details and ground that has been covered already – taken with a broad brush the story of creation / the fall is so familiar and this is a good retake of these details with a fresh eye – so I really like it.


We whispered together, and we touched, Not sure you need to repeat we whispered together
animate flesh connecting, divisble souls collated this line reads very solid and well for me and firms up all the above details
in this outpost of Divinity. The sensitive soul, repetition of the word souls seems over done. Think you could devise some way of expressing the idea without the repetition. Perhaps by the use of a designation: The souls, sensitive rational and vegetative. Just an idea.
the rational soul, the vegetative soul...
Robert Burton's trinity, conceived as far from Eden The use of The reference to Robert Burton seems obscure . I am reasonably well read in spiritual things, so Plato references within your text yep get it, Augustine pointers – yes these also; but I had not come across his work and even after doing quite a lot of Google searching, I had only a sketchy idea of what his work / ideas were. Think this makes it inaccessible to most readers – myself included. How about just saying:- an idea of the trinity

as Grace is from wolves... these three in two became six, I did not get the wolves reference. (sheep amongst wolves perhaps but felt it was unclear) and as for the three into two become six ??? the number of the beast reference I thought perhaps, but this is way too involved. So here is from my understanding of what the poem is saying and linking this into my spiritual reading of this. 6 = perfection (6 days of creation and all that good stuff) The two that were cast out for the relationship – that never-the-less loved each other, both have three aspects to their spiritual nature / souls. They have become one (as in a marriage, but somehow this union is a sin and they are cast outside of God’s love for this). Yet this love is seen as real and as valid as any other expression of love. And because of this a judgement is made against the God who would condemn such a co-joining. I read the rest of the poem as a rant against God for the injustice of the judgement and the harsh portrayal of the love that is expressed.
one light flowing out from within, one wholeness,
one crude totality. God's dismembered limbs,
crawling across that sludge of His design, met one another
and melded, to form a grotesque animal, a beast in esoteric love.

I have really enjoyed reading and working through this one (and reading your other recent offerings). I'm sorry for the slightly rambling reply and thoughts here. As I said above I have struggled to know where to start to offer my thoughts. I hope they might prove of some help. This is a worthy idea to be working with and deserves the attention. All the best AJ.



View the original thread here]]>