05-05-2012, 11:53 AM
No, ends it 
excerpts (of a dubious nature) on haiku I made elsewhere, should anyone wish to read it (somewhat repetitious).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am of the opinion, and this is echoed by a fairly famous Japanese poet known for his sublime Haiku (written in Japanese), that the form does not translate at all to use in English because of the extreme difference between, not only the two languages, but between the extremity of worldview of the two cultures. So as far as I am concerned, if it is written in English it is not a Haiku anyway. We do have several similar forms in English, although not a similar poetic form: apothegm, aphorism, proverb, or adage. In English poetry the closes we have would probably be the pastoral ode, or the meditative poem. English, at least in my opinion, as a general rule, does not lend itself to short poems. Shorter English forms may be of a witty or humorous nature, but rarely are they used for serious contemplation of the nature or the natural world. Japanese, probably due in part to its isolation, small land mass, and an anti-iconoclastic history developed a brief language because the primary interchange was in the form of an order from a superior to an inferior. Long discourse was not generally needed, nor often engaged in. Freedom was not allowed even for those at the top of the food chain. However in English, the idea of freedom, primarily as a function of the give and take between the Druid religion and the numerous petty chieftains, who were less dictators and more arbitrators in council is endemic. Such councils tended towards the bellicose, rather than the abbreviated. The progenitors of the English language/race were the polar opposite of the tightly wound, ritual encumbered Japanese. I suspect beyond land size and awareness of other peoples by way of sea travel (as well as the associated history), the fact that one can come to a slower boil drinking (quick) mead (3 to 6% alcohol) as opposed to sake (18–20% alcohol) might have also had something to do with it, as alcohol generally has had some impact in the historical development of the race."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I have seen what I would consider 3 decent examples, not great mind you, and two of them were translations from the Japanese. The poet I talked about above was the friend of, an maybe the brother-in-law, of a comparative lit professor I worked with. He, the professor, was fluent in both English and Japanese as he was an army brat/ or maybe his parents were in the diplomatic corp in Japan. Regardless, he grew up bi-lingual, and dual cultural, so he was a bit of an expert on Japan himself. He told me one time, although in more depth, that we (westerners) would never understand the Japanese because their mind set was was so incredibly alien to ours. One of the things he said that really caught my attention was that we thought we were friends with the Japanese. He said the truth was that the Japanese did not even consider us human, let alone equals. They viewed us like a big dog that had them temporarily penned, but if we ever let them up, they would destroy us completely. They view all of the other races as inferior to them, not even really human, which is how they justify the brutality they exhibited in WWII. The rest of Asia is still incredibly afraid of them. This is one reason they are always part of the US negotiations with North Korea. The rest of Asia is afraid we will let them out of their obligation to not arm. The only reason they have not, obviously rearmed is because they value their word, regardless of who it was given to, even a dog, above everything else. Their word is their honor, and their honor defines them. One of the funny things is when people think (because they play like it, to use as a type of leverage in business negotiations) we have somehow dishonored them. How can a dog offend you? When in the US, they act in a way that is in their best interest, they will appear to demean themselves, but for a people who will ritually saw themselves in half because they have dishonored themselves, no behavior is demeaning if it upholds honor. Spend some time around the pacific rim and you will see them act quite differently. Being from this country, we would not believe that they could get away with such arrogant and demanding behavior. Heck I thought Americans were bad. They don't hold a candle to the Japanese, plus generally they have the excuse of being drunk. They view others without any empathy. Non-Japanese have value to them, only by what they can get from them, but they have no inherent value in themselves. In fact, saying they value us as dogs is probably being to generous, more like wild animals.
Senryū, in terms of focus, I suppose so as it is less restrictive, but as it is also based on 17 morae, which is a time based distinction rather than a syllabic one, there is really no comparison in form between what is written in English and what is written in Japanese. Just so I was sure I was talking accurately, I looked morae up on dictionary.com. I find the definition humorous, make of it what you will:
"the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short sound or syllable."
"the ordinary or normal short sound"?
eh-aah-ooh-aah-aah!
Bing bang, wa-da-da-da-bing bang,
eh-aah-ooh-aah-aah!
Who knew the chipmunks Senryū?
Even the translations make little sense:
The robber,
when I catch,
my own son
--Senryū Karai
This points out one of the other distinctions of Japanese culture, everyone has a shared referential perspective. That is one or two words can refer to a much larger commonly held experience, or historical occurrence. Whether everyone in Japan experiences their father the same way is irrelevant, they have an acknowledged and shared archetype of what it should be.
This idea comes from Star Trek. In English, if using the same ideology to convey meaning, we might say.
"Gilgamesh-Enkidu"
To convey deep friendship.
Or
"Paul: the road"
To convey the idea of a religious experience or epiphany
Or
"Me and Paul"
as a warning to not leave your dope in your hotel room
With that kind of short hand, one could say quite a lot in 17 syllables.
I think some people do try to do that in poetry, which explains why it sounds like gibberish. Or to put it in our new form
Tower of Babel (garbled)
Spenser-Archibald MacLeish (poetry)
it's Hiroshima. (disaster)"
Dale
excerpts (of a dubious nature) on haiku I made elsewhere, should anyone wish to read it (somewhat repetitious).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am of the opinion, and this is echoed by a fairly famous Japanese poet known for his sublime Haiku (written in Japanese), that the form does not translate at all to use in English because of the extreme difference between, not only the two languages, but between the extremity of worldview of the two cultures. So as far as I am concerned, if it is written in English it is not a Haiku anyway. We do have several similar forms in English, although not a similar poetic form: apothegm, aphorism, proverb, or adage. In English poetry the closes we have would probably be the pastoral ode, or the meditative poem. English, at least in my opinion, as a general rule, does not lend itself to short poems. Shorter English forms may be of a witty or humorous nature, but rarely are they used for serious contemplation of the nature or the natural world. Japanese, probably due in part to its isolation, small land mass, and an anti-iconoclastic history developed a brief language because the primary interchange was in the form of an order from a superior to an inferior. Long discourse was not generally needed, nor often engaged in. Freedom was not allowed even for those at the top of the food chain. However in English, the idea of freedom, primarily as a function of the give and take between the Druid religion and the numerous petty chieftains, who were less dictators and more arbitrators in council is endemic. Such councils tended towards the bellicose, rather than the abbreviated. The progenitors of the English language/race were the polar opposite of the tightly wound, ritual encumbered Japanese. I suspect beyond land size and awareness of other peoples by way of sea travel (as well as the associated history), the fact that one can come to a slower boil drinking (quick) mead (3 to 6% alcohol) as opposed to sake (18–20% alcohol) might have also had something to do with it, as alcohol generally has had some impact in the historical development of the race."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I have seen what I would consider 3 decent examples, not great mind you, and two of them were translations from the Japanese. The poet I talked about above was the friend of, an maybe the brother-in-law, of a comparative lit professor I worked with. He, the professor, was fluent in both English and Japanese as he was an army brat/ or maybe his parents were in the diplomatic corp in Japan. Regardless, he grew up bi-lingual, and dual cultural, so he was a bit of an expert on Japan himself. He told me one time, although in more depth, that we (westerners) would never understand the Japanese because their mind set was was so incredibly alien to ours. One of the things he said that really caught my attention was that we thought we were friends with the Japanese. He said the truth was that the Japanese did not even consider us human, let alone equals. They viewed us like a big dog that had them temporarily penned, but if we ever let them up, they would destroy us completely. They view all of the other races as inferior to them, not even really human, which is how they justify the brutality they exhibited in WWII. The rest of Asia is still incredibly afraid of them. This is one reason they are always part of the US negotiations with North Korea. The rest of Asia is afraid we will let them out of their obligation to not arm. The only reason they have not, obviously rearmed is because they value their word, regardless of who it was given to, even a dog, above everything else. Their word is their honor, and their honor defines them. One of the funny things is when people think (because they play like it, to use as a type of leverage in business negotiations) we have somehow dishonored them. How can a dog offend you? When in the US, they act in a way that is in their best interest, they will appear to demean themselves, but for a people who will ritually saw themselves in half because they have dishonored themselves, no behavior is demeaning if it upholds honor. Spend some time around the pacific rim and you will see them act quite differently. Being from this country, we would not believe that they could get away with such arrogant and demanding behavior. Heck I thought Americans were bad. They don't hold a candle to the Japanese, plus generally they have the excuse of being drunk. They view others without any empathy. Non-Japanese have value to them, only by what they can get from them, but they have no inherent value in themselves. In fact, saying they value us as dogs is probably being to generous, more like wild animals.
Senryū, in terms of focus, I suppose so as it is less restrictive, but as it is also based on 17 morae, which is a time based distinction rather than a syllabic one, there is really no comparison in form between what is written in English and what is written in Japanese. Just so I was sure I was talking accurately, I looked morae up on dictionary.com. I find the definition humorous, make of it what you will:
"the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short sound or syllable."
"the ordinary or normal short sound"?
eh-aah-ooh-aah-aah!
Bing bang, wa-da-da-da-bing bang,
eh-aah-ooh-aah-aah!
Who knew the chipmunks Senryū?
Even the translations make little sense:
The robber,
when I catch,
my own son
--Senryū Karai
This points out one of the other distinctions of Japanese culture, everyone has a shared referential perspective. That is one or two words can refer to a much larger commonly held experience, or historical occurrence. Whether everyone in Japan experiences their father the same way is irrelevant, they have an acknowledged and shared archetype of what it should be.
This idea comes from Star Trek. In English, if using the same ideology to convey meaning, we might say.
"Gilgamesh-Enkidu"
To convey deep friendship.
Or
"Paul: the road"
To convey the idea of a religious experience or epiphany
Or
"Me and Paul"
as a warning to not leave your dope in your hotel room
With that kind of short hand, one could say quite a lot in 17 syllables.
I think some people do try to do that in poetry, which explains why it sounds like gibberish. Or to put it in our new form
Tower of Babel (garbled)
Spenser-Archibald MacLeish (poetry)
it's Hiroshima. (disaster)"
Dale
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.