dozens of bodies dumped in mine

[cigarbabe]

tolerance

lets start with that first. ;

Is Heroin Addicting?
Tolerance to heroin develops with regular use. This means it will take more heroin to produce the same level of intensity to the user. This results in physical addiction to the drug developing over time.

[b]I am not disagreeing with this statement.

What is Heroin Withdrawal Like?
When the drug is discontinued, the user will experience physical withdrawal. The withdrawal can begin within a few hours since it was last administered. Withdrawal symptoms include:

* Restlessness
* Insomnia
* Diarrhea
* Vomiting
* Cold flashes with goose bumps
* Kicking movements
* Muscle and bone pain[/b]

i've seen this phenom with my own eyes in users of less than 4 months. please note the underlined part. it's takes a bit of time to become a junky but not a long time. even taking it once will lead to a feeling of depression and more afterwards. a long term addiction does not constitute years. i the case of a highly addictive drug like heroin it can be months depending on the regularity taken.

Billy I have gone through withdrawal myself
again I'm not disputing these facts.
Although I certainly didn't suffer from depression
after the first few times I used even with shooting it.
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i take it by this statement;

Billy I can't speak for most addicts.
I can only speak for myself and I don't know anyone who had an
addiction for heroin after using it a couple ie two or three times,not one!
you don't know a single addict? i don't know more than a handfull of users who stopped after three close together hits.
Of course I know addicts but not anymore.
I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.

I never said I didn't know any.
I said I don't believe the previous statements you made
were true for all addicts. IE;
I don't know anyone who had an
addiction for heroin after using it after one day or so
even two or three times.
I don't know even one who got addicted like that!

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usage; you say;
I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting
to suggest that addicts should be doing such a thing.
That is unheard of in this country!
Ask me or any former addict darling.Wink
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots over a two day period has to have been shooting dope for quite a while.
Perhaps not on the very first few days using.
I would have been dead even with the 1% dope
I shot back then had I taken it that often.
Mind you Billy I'm talking about twenty years ago at least.


Total Use Vs. Average Use

The amount given by the formula above is the total amount used per day. Heroin has a halflife of three hours (caveat).This means that if you use heroin once per day, there will be less than one-half of one percent (0.5%) left in your body each time you use. This is why most addicts find it necessary to use a few times per day. After six hours, the drug is at 25% of its maximum--this is about the time when addicts begin to experience some discomfort from withdrawal.

[color=#0000CD][b]Again Billy I was strictly talking about my experiences and friends of mine I was not generalizing nor am I trying to negate what you stated.

When switching from heroin to codeine, there is no need to compare how long the drugs stay in your body; this is because codeine has the same halflife. For a drug like methadone, this effect is large. Methadone stays in the body eight (or more) times as long as heroin. As a result, you will need only 1/8 as much methadone as heroin to keep from experiencing withdrawal symptoms.
Opioid Strength

Opioids vary in terms of their strength. Heroin is one of the stronger ones. Taken IV, it is 60 times as strong as codeine taken orally. It is even 6 times as strong as methadone (impressively, however, methadone is only 30% weaker than heroin when both are taken orally). The differing strengths of the opioids must also be taken into account when matching doses. [/b]
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you said;
the thing is most (virtually all) people who go out, have a fix, don't just have a fix once a moth etc. most have their first fix on friday, 2nd on sat and third on sunday. after that they actively seek out a fix.

I don't believe that is true for most dope fiends.
It certainly wasn't true for me.

heres the underlined section again ;

Total Use Vs. Average Use

The amount given by the formula above is the total amount used per day. Heroin has a halflife of three hours (caveat).This means that if you use heroin once per day, there will be less than one-half of one percent (0.5%) left in your body each time you use. This is why most addicts find it necessary to use a few times per day. After six hours, the drug is at 25% of its maximum--this is about the time when addicts begin to experience some discomfort from withdrawal.

Yes but again they are talking {I percieve} about people who have been using for several years not a few months or days.
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you say:

Billy have you ever been addicted to heroin?
No? Okay let's say you have.
Then why do you keep trying to tell me what
is true when I've actually been through several methods
of Methadone treatment and detox's?
I never took methadone as a way to hold me over until I could get more dope,never! Maybe those things happened or the clients told you these stories where you worked but I can assure you that is not the norm here in the states.

yu don't actually know what i've been through CB nor i what you've been through. Okay I don't know.
Mea Culpa.

Wrong and right Billy!
I have told you in this instance what I went through to give a clearer understanding of my experiences when I was in my twenties,thirties
doing drugs.

you said;

It isn't about tolerance at first it is about wanting to use a particular substance whatever the drug is.
I'm referring to the first days of usages only.


it's more or less what i said with;
if those fixes are weeks apart or even moths aprt them the heroin has already left the system and the tolerance is no where near the same. and the thing is most junkies didn't start by taking it every four days or once a week. they usually took five or six hits over two days. (injections) while under the influence of booze and other drugs such as coke (meaning peer pressure or adventure)

you said;
I don't need a source since I've been there,done that but thank you anyway.
I only said I started out by sniffing and then I progressed to shooting it.
Cold turkey does not work as a method of keeping people off of drugs
and you should know that as a former counselor.

which is pretty much what i said with;

[u]cold turkey: the quickest way to get the drug out of the system, it's also only the first stage in getting the drug out of the system and keeping it out. certain drugs can be given to alleviate the cramps and to a smaller extent the sweats. even then the withdrawal symptoms can still be horrendous. methadone etc just creates other related problems. most junkies take their prescription methadone to tide them over till they get a real fix.
note the underlined part that doesn't say cold turkey keeps people of drugs. in truth it's practiced because giving a substitute drug still keeps drugs in the system., it done so the person remembers how bad a feeling the withdrawal is (it's used as a reinforcement for the latter part of any treatment, it means if you know what being burnt is, you think twice before burning yourself)
i also said;
then like alcoholics they have a guardian angel. in the case of an addict a much closer one whose usually a family member who can be with them virtually 24/7 for 6 months. after that it's daily or bi daily blood tests for a year most fall by the way side.

note the underlined part. i never ever said it cures or keeps them off drugs, in fact i said there is no cure
I believe clients on a clinic can be cured if they commit to not using and abiding by the programs rules.
In this country there are no programs, that have family members keep an eye on the addict to keep them in line since that would create resentment having a person watching you every day.
That doesn't foster trust in any way!

i'll give a source anyway, as to why detox is the first stage of any sensible treatment.

Detoxification

The primary objective of detoxification is to relieve withdrawal symptoms while patients adjust to a drug-free state. Not in itself a treatment for addiction, detoxification is a useful step only when it leads into long-term treatment that is either drug-free (residential or outpatient) or uses medications as part of the treatment. The best documented drug-free treatments are the therapeutic community residential programs lasting at least 3 to 6 months. source;

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again you said;
I'd love to view the source who thinks it's a good idea
to shoot dope every four days!
Never seen or heard of anyone even attempting to do such a thing.
That is unheard of!
Ask me or any former addict darling.Wink
The second issue I have problems with is anyone who needs to take 5 or 6 shots over a two day period has been shooting dope for quite a while.

I would have been dead even with the 1% dope I shot back then
had I taken it that often.
C.B.

heroin is seldom under 9 or 10 %
but none the less here's another source about the occurence of a decent junky injecting I.V. style.;
How is heroin used?

Heroin is usually injected, sniffed/snorted, or smoked. Typically, a heroin abuser may inject up to four times a day. Intravenous injection provides the greatest intensity and most rapid onset of euphoria (7 to 8 seconds), while intramuscular injection produces a relatively slow onset of euphoria (5 to 8 minutes). When heroin is sniffed or smoked, peak effects are usually felt within 10 to 15 minutes. Although smoking and sniffing heroin do not produce a "rush" as quickly or as intensely as intravenous injection, NIDA researchers have confirmed that all three forms of heroin administration are addictive. source;

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a good user (junky) will have collapsed all his/her do-able veins withing 6 months or less. they'll be injecting into their penis or piss flaps even their own eye balls, after 8 months or even less. i've had more friends die from o.d,-ing on it than i care to mention. i've lifted a dead friend, a 45 pound girl (not kilos) into a taxi to take her to hospital. she'd been a junky all her adult life but had been in prison for two year prior to the six months of freedom she had.
I did dope over twenty years ago.

as for the purity of heroin, white, black or brown. i can wash it up and tell you it's strength to the nearest 100th of gram in less than 3 minutes. i can do the same with coke.

Wash it up?
Piss flaps?
I can hardly believe that all junkies collapse their veins that quickly though I'm sure it's not impossible.
I thank God that never happened to me and that's is from being extremely careful.