Leopard

[Julius]

I'm not of a mind to pore over the pages of seasonal words but for me "graze" might be one.

We have some threads here on non-syllable-counting haiku around here, I'll take a look.

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-5432.html?highlight=haiku

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-15532.html?highlight=haiku

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-17813.html?highlight=haiku

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-18147.html?highlight=haiku

Thank you ellajam, the links lead to some interesting points. I see Billy mentioned a big list of seasonal words so perhaps he meant this one :-

http://www.2hweb.net/haikai/renku/500ESWd.html

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I'm all for the last on, er one, however there is nothing in it to suggest it is anything other than a short poem. I had a friend who had married a Japanese woman, whose brother was one of the more well known writers of Haiku and who also spoke English fluently. My friend asked him what he thought about (ELH) and he basically called it a farce, a joke. As I was never big on (ELH) it did not surprise me. What most (ELH) is also missing is the "kiru" and the "kireji". Also in English we have no "saijiki" as in Japan there is a specific list of "kigo". In English we go with this idea of "seasonal word" which basically can mean anything, such as ella's "graze". I don't really see how that is a seasonal word even in English as herbivores "graze" year round, not in a particular season. IN Japan things are very structured as far as haiku, not to mention it is as much a visual art form as it is a verbal one. In English we are incapable of this, there is really no way to write vertically and it makes no sense, not the the way it does in Japanese.

You know it is perfectly OK to write short form poems and not have to call it anything. (ELH) imposes artificial limits on the English language that are neither necessary or beneficial. About the only use I see for (ELH) is a learning tool, to teach brevity in word use.

Personally I would forget trying to shoehorn something into a (ELH) form, if by breaking that form, one could produce a better poem. Of course the prerogative is yours to do as you will, everybody must find their own way.

dale

PS The idea of saying something in one breath is really just a lift of how Ginsberg described how long a line should be, so basically a person would be writing one line of beat.

 Hi Dale,

I rather like your explanation, it explains a lot that has gone through my mind. In trying to understand the concept of a haiku I have, of course, read quite a few which are translations of what are described as model poems. To be truthful they often seem to be rather simplistic and to my untrained eye hardly poetry. However they seem to be held in high esteem by the “establishment” and it seemed quite possible to produce something similar. Perhaps anyone who decks himself in English Language Haiku “clothing” is wearing the emperor's new clothes?

Before I give up on the haiku I just might try a Lune or American Haiku. Its shorter form and absence of rules might be worth trying. I would hazard a guess that you and Robert Kelly would have much in common.

http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blog...-form-lune