08-26-2015, 09:46 AM
Hi Crow,
I have also been pondering this question for a couple of days or so and also much like Shem I thought had a grasp on a concept that... yeah, you know the story. Truth is I don't think I could answer this question satisfactorily and I probably never intended to. But it gives me the chance to say what I kind of wanted to say the last time you asked a question about lyrics that also seemed to baffle people and question logic. I fully understand your current interest in lyric writing but it seems to me that you are approaching it from an almost mathematical point of view and looking to try and break it into neat formulaic structures that can be used to slot in to another song at the appropriate place.
The fact that this whole approach would seem to be going against the way that I perceive your approach to poetry baffles even more. I've read your poems and they are good and they don't strike me as the product of such formulaic thinking.
Shem said it perfectly in the first sentence of his statement, "there is a difference between lyrics and poetry, and that is music", if the music is no good then the lyrics are irrelevant. Good lyrics can't save a bad song, but good music can. If the music is good and the lyrics are good then the ultimate aim has been achieved. But because the lyrics depend on the music then I believe they should be written in a 'musical' way. And by this I really mean that they should be natural, they should sound natural and not stick out as a separate entity. Because of this then rules and formulas should be thrown as far away as possible from any process that involves lyric writing.
Listen to a song in a language that you don't understand and then consider your question, listen to an instrumental piece of music and concentrate on the lyrics, it's not as daft an idea as what it sounds. Good music flows like water, it fits naturally into what ever space it is allowed fill, it doesnt have straight lines or perfect right angles and neither does nature. You wouldn't try and draw a tree by using a set square and ruler.
Please don't take any of this the wrong way, it is not meant as an attack on you or your methods for writing lyrics. Like I said before I appreciate the fact that you have a current interest in that area. In some ways I would say that it is possibly more difficult writing lyrics than it is writing poetry. I play guitar and I try and write poetry but putting the two together is not a place that I like to go. It perplexes me and whenever I've tried it I manage to come up with a shit poem that becomes a burden to any melody, rhythm or harmony, so I just don't try any more.
It is an art and it's not an easy art but the fact that it is art and not maths means it has to be approached in an artistic way. Yeah, bridges, verse, chorus, verse and middle eights all seem to contradict what I'm saying in many ways but even someone with no knowledge of that terminology would probably still know those concepts in songs, just not in a way that they could accurately describe it technically.
Whenever someone who doesn't play an instrument discovers that certain people, like Jimi Hendrix for example, played an instrument yet was unable to read music they are amazed and start to think along the lines of genius to understand how it is possible. Whereas most musicians would probably say that it is the least important aspect of music. It's equations and formulas so that it can be trapped on a sheet of paper, it's useful in an intellectual way of documentation, but it's not music.
It's just a thought that I wanted to share.
Mark
I have also been pondering this question for a couple of days or so and also much like Shem I thought had a grasp on a concept that... yeah, you know the story. Truth is I don't think I could answer this question satisfactorily and I probably never intended to. But it gives me the chance to say what I kind of wanted to say the last time you asked a question about lyrics that also seemed to baffle people and question logic. I fully understand your current interest in lyric writing but it seems to me that you are approaching it from an almost mathematical point of view and looking to try and break it into neat formulaic structures that can be used to slot in to another song at the appropriate place.
The fact that this whole approach would seem to be going against the way that I perceive your approach to poetry baffles even more. I've read your poems and they are good and they don't strike me as the product of such formulaic thinking.
Shem said it perfectly in the first sentence of his statement, "there is a difference between lyrics and poetry, and that is music", if the music is no good then the lyrics are irrelevant. Good lyrics can't save a bad song, but good music can. If the music is good and the lyrics are good then the ultimate aim has been achieved. But because the lyrics depend on the music then I believe they should be written in a 'musical' way. And by this I really mean that they should be natural, they should sound natural and not stick out as a separate entity. Because of this then rules and formulas should be thrown as far away as possible from any process that involves lyric writing.
Listen to a song in a language that you don't understand and then consider your question, listen to an instrumental piece of music and concentrate on the lyrics, it's not as daft an idea as what it sounds. Good music flows like water, it fits naturally into what ever space it is allowed fill, it doesnt have straight lines or perfect right angles and neither does nature. You wouldn't try and draw a tree by using a set square and ruler.
Please don't take any of this the wrong way, it is not meant as an attack on you or your methods for writing lyrics. Like I said before I appreciate the fact that you have a current interest in that area. In some ways I would say that it is possibly more difficult writing lyrics than it is writing poetry. I play guitar and I try and write poetry but putting the two together is not a place that I like to go. It perplexes me and whenever I've tried it I manage to come up with a shit poem that becomes a burden to any melody, rhythm or harmony, so I just don't try any more.
It is an art and it's not an easy art but the fact that it is art and not maths means it has to be approached in an artistic way. Yeah, bridges, verse, chorus, verse and middle eights all seem to contradict what I'm saying in many ways but even someone with no knowledge of that terminology would probably still know those concepts in songs, just not in a way that they could accurately describe it technically.
Whenever someone who doesn't play an instrument discovers that certain people, like Jimi Hendrix for example, played an instrument yet was unable to read music they are amazed and start to think along the lines of genius to understand how it is possible. Whereas most musicians would probably say that it is the least important aspect of music. It's equations and formulas so that it can be trapped on a sheet of paper, it's useful in an intellectual way of documentation, but it's not music.
It's just a thought that I wanted to share.
Mark
wae aye man ye radgie