a point arose about this is not poetry

[billy]

they don't need to know that "it is absolute shit," but yes agreed, you should tell them exactly what you think is wrong, don't sugarcoat. again, i see this forum as more for mentoring than actual critiquing, yes you do analyse poems, but people come here to get help with their writing. imo, a good teacher won't offend the student.

how close is your writing to your ideas? how close are you ideas to who 'you' are? no matter how many times you tell yourself "the poem is not the poet," you won't stop your emotions, all your doing is putting on a front.

i think the above is what a workshop should be. it's what i hope this place is.

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I think you never know what is going to hurt someone's feelings,and someone who is a poet will continue no matter what because they do not have a choice. Even if everyone in the world told me my writing was shit, I would still write. The muse will wake me in the middle of the night and not let me get back to sleep until I write down what she wants me to write. If you are going to be a poet, you need to grow a thicker skin so you can get past all the BS and learn to hear criticism effectively. The paradox is that the only way to grow a thick skin is to have people tell you things you don't want to hear, coddling someone only keeps them from growing. A poet will never develop if his ego is constantly hanging out there to get batted around like a cat playing with a ball on a string. Egoism stops the creative energy.

"a good teacher won't offend the student"

A good teacher will offend his student if that is what the student needs. People hold sensibilities that are not conducive to their growth, and so they need to be made aware of this. Such an encounter is rarely pleasant.

Dale

all valid and lets be fair to the critics as well, no one is saying they're good teachers, in general it's just people trying to help people by giving feedback.

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I think folks can get the same messege from a 'counciler' as they would from a 'drill sargent', some of you folks are splitting hairs and your pants here.

councillors could never make a soldier a soldier.

while i hate to admit it. milo's point for me holds the day. we don't know shit till someone shows us what shit looks like. does it become more palatable if we say the really doesn't work as a poem instead of "this is shit" the latter is to the point. i'm not saying it's what i'd say but i wouldn't castigate anyone for saying it were it true.

as for thick skins, they are the most vital tool a poet has. it allows the poet to throw their ego away. or that bad part of ego that insist their brilliance should be allowed whatever they write.

why do we have thick skins in life? we laugh and joke and say nasty shit to each other and it's all taken in our stride but one wrong word about what we create and the knife comes out to separate testicles from where they hang,

"not a bad meal dear just needs a bit more salt though"

oh thank you dear, here's the salt.

now on poetry.

"not a bad poem dear, need a bit of work on the punctuation though"

"you bastard, i want a divorce and i want it know you callous person you"

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These debates over what to name a rose would be amusing if
it weren't for the fact that it distracts you from its smell.

Call it 'writing' and get back to its beauty.

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"no pics in serious poetry" said billy

HA HA: Blake, et al

95% of my stuff ('stuff' by any other name...) includes a visual
element. I call it (when forced) multiple-media art.

and i agree that that's what it is, though i think the real term is ekphrastic poetry if another art form is involved. in fact i like the pic poetry stuff a lot, it just makes workshopping a poem harder. how can you not say good things about a good pic.