Love and war

[Chaotic Body]

(v1.2)

(an image goes with this poem.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GHR1.jpg

Soldier saviour surrenders candy
For a confident boy in the sandland
Brings hope to the son, but buries his father-
Shoots caseload of lead,
Shed from bullions of beautiful wealth-nation gold.
In Christian God's name, widow-hands tremble with the body,
Wraught in disbelief; shocked and unsettled.


A year away: serving souls torn in the silence of solemn report
That the villagers will find... a dead daughter amongst mortar fragments.
Killer cries, slumped with his head in his hands.
Like a memory felt along a scar,
This will jerk back when he sees children.





(v1.1)



(an image goes with this poem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GHR1.jpg)


Soldier saviour saves the son, but buries the father-
In, caseload of lead shed from bullion-beautiful gold;
In Christian God's word, widow-fingers catch and tremble,
Losing like dug soil across the cold dusk of sandland-
Faith in humanity.

A year away: soldiers' souls torn in the silence of solemn report
That the villagers will find, a dead daughter amongst mortar fragments.
Unwitting, the killer cries, slumped with his head in his hands.
Like a memory felt along the scar of a once-split head,
This will jerk back when he sees children.



(end)
(v1.0)


The saviour saves the son, but buries the father
In a caseload of lead shed from bullion beautiful gold
In God's word, someone hugs the slump with trembling fingers which,
In the cold dusk of the sandland, let slip like dug soil-
Faith in humanity.


A year away: soldiers' souls torn in the silence of solemn report
That the villagers are looking for a dead daughter...
Lost in the long night of mortar-bombing. The unwitting killer
Cries, slumped with his head in his hands. Like the scars of split heads,
His memory will jerk back when he sees children.




(end)
I want to know what works and what really doesn't.
Thanks in advance

[tectak]

The saviour saves the son, but buries the father
In a caseload of lead shed from bullion beautiful gold
In God's word, someone hugs the slump with trembling fingers which,
In the cold dusk of the sandland, let slip like dug soil-
Faith in humanity.


A year away: soldiers' souls torn in the silence of solemn report
That the villagers are looking for a dead daughter...
Lost in the long night of mortar-bombing. The unwitting killer
Cries, slumped with his head in his hands. Like the scars of split heads,
His memory will jerk back when he sees children.

I am not good enough to crit this...twas, however, brillig and the slivey tove did most consequentially gyre and holistically gimble. IMO
Best,
Tectak



(end)
I want to know what works and what really doesn't.
Thanks in advance

[Erthona]

"I want to know what works and what really doesn't."
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Not to be unkind, but I would say there is little that does work. This subject is already over the top and emotionally charged enough, it really doesn't need augmentation, as just the simple facts would probably be enough to have an impact. Given that, I don't see anything you are doing to be something that will "work" as it is in opposition to the nature of the subject.
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These specially do not work because mostly they make no sense to me, or because they are descriptions that do not fit with the tone of the poem.


The saviour saves the son, but buries the father (Savior?)
a caseload of lead shed
bullion beautiful gold
someone hugs the slump
In the cold dusk of the sandland let slip like dug soil-
Like the scars of split heads,

Idioms work because they are connected to something else or have devolved from something else. On top of that you are using words incorrectly, such as "slump". It can be used as a noun as in "he was in a slump", but it is nonsensical to use it to describe a person. "bullion" in most instances means gold, so it makes little sense to describe gold in those terms.
I get the "sandland" reference, but it is out of tone with the poem, it's like saying, "the soldier buried his head in his hands and said, "nighty-night".

of split heads: I haven't a clue

Also, none of this helps to convey the idea of the horror that the soldier experiences from knowing what he did.

I'm all for pushing the boundary in terms of metaphor, or fresh images, but I am also for doing it in such a way that you take the reader along with you, so I think Tectak's point is well taken, by using these "free-floating" idioms, it turns the poem into nonsense.

Dale

[Indie]

I didn't want to be the first one to say it, though Dale is right, this poem doesn't make sense. And no amount of re-reading it enlightens me as to what you're trying to say.

[Chaotic Body]

First of all thanks (again) to everyone here for the constructive input! I'm really glad of it.

Not to be unkind, but I would say there is little that does work. This subject is already over the top and emotionally charged enough, it really doesn't need augmentation, as just the simple facts would probably be enough to have an impact. Given that, I don't see anything you are doing to be something that will "work" as it is in opposition to the nature of the subject.

I'm not sure there is such a well-defined subject or standard I *absolutely need* to adhere to.. (or a form of writing for that matter,) take for instance the film I drew inspiration from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillo_(film)

Technically you can call anything art (or call anything worthless). I'm sorry if I make it difficult for you to criticize my work for not using a good writing standard.. unfortunately I'm not willing to invest such great time and effort. I'm not even sure how it should be read. But, I'd like my writing to be criticized with all this given, if that's doable.

Yeah I understand I should leave some things for the reader to discover (subtlety) without being too cryptic. I had another go. But I think I need a much longer piece of writing to convey some of the mixed messages in there originally. (my fault for trying with such a short piece)

"Also, none of this helps to convey the idea of the horror that the soldier experiences from knowing what he did. "
I was trying to connect the idea that both sides lose in war, and the tragedy more than anything in that notion of recalling war in civilian life (the film does this a lot better..)

But I really like it as a quick read, I think it has value. I just need to better attempt those aims so that it actually makes sense for others to read. Sorry that I'm still not quite getting the hang of this!

I'm all for pushing the boundary in terms of metaphor, or fresh images, but I am also for doing it in such a way that you take the reader along with you, so I think Tectak's point is well taken, by using these "free-floating" idioms, it turns the poem into nonsense.

Yeah that's fair. I recognize that my understandings of the words like 'slump' are.. creative. I think the 'bullion-beautiful gold' in version 2 is good enough though. I think that's valid to say that gold being beautiful is also the reason for war. But that's the limit of the medium maybe, I want substance and form. Well, I will attempt it again sometime soon anyway.

[Erthona]

"I'm not sure there is such a well-defined subject or standard I *absolutely need* to adhere to.."

I didn't say anything about a standard, I said subject, i.e., the event you are describing, the subject of the poem. In particular the juxtaposition of the internal reality of the soldier, with the sorrow of the girl's father. To interject obviously contrived idioms into a retelling of this event, demeans the girl, the father, and the soldier, but especially when you interject something like "someone hugs the slump" that even if we overlook the disturbing connotative aspects, you are still objectifying the girl when you use the article "the". This is not a standard, but a basic human reaction to be revolted by such a treatment of a human being.

"Technically you can call anything art (or call anything worthless). I'm sorry if I make it difficult for you to criticize my work for not using a good writing standard.. unfortunately I'm not willing to invest such great time and effort. I'm not even sure how it should be read. But, I'd like my writing to be criticized with all this given, if that's doable."

With all what given? Do you mean we should ignore that you write poorly, or that what you write makes no sense? As those are two major areas of critique I don't see that happening.

" I'm not willing to invest such great time and effort."

Evidently you have a misconception about the necessary work it takes to become a poet or any kind of artist. I understand that. I was under the same misconception when younger. I was a poor prose writer, and I thought I could ignore my deficits in grammar, punctuation, and so on by writing poetry. Poetry is not a refuge for the writing novice who shuns the hard work. Talent alone in any field is not sufficient. I hope you will reconsider about investing "such great time and effort" because that is what it takes. Being both a musician and a visual artist, I can assure you that poetry is a much more difficult medium to master than either of those. However if you wish critiques to be restricted, you might consider posting in the novice forum, as the critiques do take into consideration the fact the writer has not spent much time yet honing his craft.

Best,

Dale

[addy]

Picture doesn't work for me

Here are a few of my thoughts on the piece, hope they're worthwhile

(v1.1)


Soldier saviour is "saviour" necessary? saves the son, but buries the father-
In, the punctuation here is odd. in the first version it was clearer caseload of lead shed from bullion-beautiful gold;
In Christian God's word, widow-fingers catch and tremble, I like "widow-fingers" What do you mean by "In Christian God's word"? I'm guessing it's a funeral, but it sounds off and vague.
Losing like dug soil across the cold dusk of sandland-
Faith in humanity. the phrasing again makes this hard to read. "Faith lost like dug soil..." sounds much clearer

A year away: soldiers' souls torn in the silence of solemn report
That the villagers will find, no need for comma a dead daughter amongst mortar fragments.
Unwitting, the killer cries, slumped with his head in his hands.
Like a memory felt along the scar of a once-split head,
This will jerk back when he sees children. I think the penultimate line makes for a better close than this one. How about "The sight of children like a memory felt along the scar of a once-split head"? Just a quick suggestion

Thanks for the read

[Erthona]

V1.1

Link to picture is broken. In general, however, it is accepted that a poem will stand on its own.

Soldier saviour saves the son, but buries the father-

Generally in poetry, when a section is enclosed by an en dash, em dash, or hyphen, the enclosed section is usually treated as parenthetical, however this would leave us with the following:

"Soldier saviour saves the son, but buries the father Faith in humanity."

Is this what you mean?
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In, caseload of lead shed from bullion-beautiful gold;

I am unsure what the "In" has to do with what follows. It might make some sense if written

" Caseloads of lead are shed from bullion of gold"

That is if you are trying to say that war (lead=bullets) arises from lust of,or possession of gold. If you mean the "father" is buried in caseloads of lead, shed by gold" then I have no clue as to what this is supposed to mean.
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In Christian God's word, (dependent clause) appears unrelated to what precedes or follows

widow-fingers catch and tremble, (dependent clause) appears unrelated to what precedes or follows
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Losing like dug soil across the cold dusk of sandland- (dependent clause) appears unrelated to what precedes or follows
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Faith in humanity. (see above)
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A year away: (A year has passed since?)

soldiers' souls torn in the silence of solemn report

(if there is a report being read, solemn or otherwise it would not be silent.)

That the villagers will find, a dead daughter amongst mortar fragments.
(The villagers found among the mortar fragments the body of a girl, dead, the daughter of one of the village men?)
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Unwitting, the killer cries, slumped with his head in his hands.

Maybe
unconsciously the killer cries and slumps forward with his head in his hands? (Before it was soldiers, plural. However here you switch to soldier, singular. It can't be both.
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Like a memory felt along the scar of a once-split head,

What is "like a memory"? The soldier's head?
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This will jerk back when he sees children.

"This" what does this refer to?
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The majority of the lines are dependent clauses, often lacking a subject, and often not referring to one. It would probably be beneficial if the sentences were written out in order to make sure each contains the necessary elements to be intelligible. I suspect the writer does what most neophyte poets do in an attempt to copy what they perceive as the abbreviated style what is often associated with poetry; they omit words which contain necessary pieces of information. Primarily this happens because the writer projects these omissions onto the piece because they already know what it is suppose to say. Often the piece must be laid aside for some time, and then returned to with fresh eyes in order to perceive what is actually happening. It is difficult in the beginning to understand why we are not understood when what we have written seems perfectly clear to us. As we gain experience we may not necessarily becomes more adept at seeing the text the way the reader sees the text, but we become aware of the problem, cease fighting it, and begin to make allowances for this "writer's blind spot". The lack of clarity that arises from this blind spot is probably the primarily area of focus for workshop type critiques, and certainly it is the area that benefits the most.
Certainly it is difficult to accept (and often it comes with no little amount of self consciousness), that others see more clearly into what we write than we do. However, coming to acceptance of this blindness in ourselves is the first major step in becoming a writer.
Sometimes it helps to have this explained, and to know that we are not unique in this.

Dale

[Chaotic Body]

The majority of the lines are dependent clauses, often lacking a subject, and often not referring to one. It would probably be beneficial if the sentences were written out in order to make sure each contains the necessary elements to be intelligible. I suspect the writer does what most neophyte poets do in an attempt to copy what they perceive as the abbreviated style what is often associated with poetry; they omit words which contain necessary pieces of information. Primarily this happens because the writer projects these omissions onto the piece because they already know what it is suppose to say. Often the piece must be laid aside for some time, and then returned to with fresh eyes in order to perceive what is actually happening. It is difficult in the beginning to understand why we are not understood when what we have written seems perfectly clear to us. As we gain experience we may not necessarily becomes more adept at seeing the text the way the reader sees the text, but we become aware of the problem, cease fighting it, and begin to make allowances for this "writer's blind spot". The lack of clarity that arises from this blind spot is probably the primarily area of focus for workshop type critiques, and certainly it is the area that benefits the most.
Certainly it is difficult to accept (and often it comes with no little amount of self consciousness), that others see more clearly into what we write than we do. However, coming to acceptance of this blindness in ourselves is the first major step in becoming a writer.
Sometimes it helps to have this explained, and to know that we are not unique in this.

Dale

(updated original post)
(I took advice from the posts in this topic, so thanks)

Yeah I'm aware of this, and thank you for taking the time to explain it so clearly for me. My mind's not on the use of grammar, even. Maybe because I spend a lot of time visualizing. I noticed when I finished the first draft I'd got 'head' and 'hands' the wrong way round... the end result is what matters, though, and it will show eventually. I posted here rather than in novice critique because it seems like there's more of a response.

About "time and effort".. I spend most of my time thinking about video game design and philosophy and psychology, but I'm having motivation problems and poetry, for me, is just a nice way of getting positive feedback, and a good creativity study. But I do understand lots of fundamental things about life.

[billy]

will give some feedback later , good to see edits